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Post by SKORIC on Dec 10, 2008 11:15:13 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Cossack_DivisionFunny, maybe these were the "Cetniks" in this photo that some people here have posted in the past No wonder their beards are so neatly trimmed when Cetniks usually let their beards grow.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 10, 2008 19:42:02 GMT -5
Interesting. Cossacks should be Ukrainians & Ukrainians only. Interestingly there is a small Ukrainian community in Bosnia that are close with Serbs. I wonder if they were former cossacks? I only ever heard that they settled Bosnia for a better life since Ukrainians were highly persecuted in the USSR. I believe Sergej Barbarez is Ukrainian.
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Post by SKORIC on Dec 11, 2008 1:23:25 GMT -5
I dont think they would be former cossacks as i think most died, the ones that didnt wouldnt have been allowed to live in Tito's Yugoslavia. Plus these guys only fought with the Nazi's to defeat communism and overthrow Stalin and the soviets. But since Germans needed all the troops they could get in Yugoslavia they brought these ones there in the name of fighting communism, so i doubt they would wanna live in another communist state after all that anyway.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Dec 11, 2008 1:50:57 GMT -5
I believe Sergej Barbarez is Ukrainian. Cale Srbin - Ljubo, majka Bosnjakinja Zlata.
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tyson
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Post by tyson on Dec 11, 2008 3:45:54 GMT -5
Interesting. Cossacks should be Ukrainians & Ukrainians only. cossaks are not just from ukraine, but from southern russia swell. they still actually have cossack units training in southern russia. Interestingly there is a small Ukrainian community in Bosnia that are close with Serbs. I wonder if they were former cossacks? I only ever heard that they settled Bosnia for a better life since Ukrainians were highly persecuted in the USSR. I believe Sergej Barbarez is Ukrainian. actually those ukrainians in bosnia were brought there by the austro-hungarians from austro-hungarian controlled western ukraine
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Post by radovic on Dec 11, 2008 14:39:39 GMT -5
Interesting. Cossacks should be Ukrainians & Ukrainians only. Interestingly there is a small Ukrainian community in Bosnia that are close with Serbs. I wonder if they were former cossacks? I only ever heard that they settled Bosnia for a better life since Ukrainians were highly persecuted in the USSR. I believe Sergej Barbarez is Ukrainian. The Ukrainians in Bosnia are linked to the Austro-Hungarian empire not to the Cossacks. The vast majority of people who came from the USSr to YU after WWI were not Ukrainians but russian priests -- Sremski Karlovci once being the center of the church outside Russia. The Cossacks are a seperate nation, they tend to not consider themselves Ukrainian and Russian but a seperate nation. They are loyal to russia. Not only that but their history as loose independent federations indepndent of Kievan Rus, the Moscow Dutchy, the Crimean Khanate and Poland indicate they are a group who did not identify it's self specifically to any state or nation. The cossacks are currently in russia recognized as a distinct ethnocultural entity.
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Post by fazlinho on Dec 11, 2008 14:45:55 GMT -5
They are mostly famous through this painting "Zaporozhian Cossacks of Ukraine Writing a Letter in Reply to the Sultan of Turkey" Ilya Repin (1844-1930)
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Post by Novus Dis on Dec 11, 2008 18:58:17 GMT -5
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 11, 2008 20:42:23 GMT -5
They are mostly famous through this painting "Zaporozhian Cossacks of Ukraine Writing a Letter in Reply to the Sultan of Turkey" Ilya Repin (1844-1930) This is a painting of a Ukrainian cossack writting a letter to a Turkish sultan telling him to FO. Radovic, you are wrong. Cossacks are the pride of Ukraine. This painting is in every Ukrainian household as much as Kosovska Devojka is in Serbian households. The Russians did their best to Russify everyone & anyone, but the cossacks are Ukrainian.
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Post by radovic on Dec 11, 2008 23:19:38 GMT -5
They are mostly famous through this painting "Zaporozhian Cossacks of Ukraine Writing a Letter in Reply to the Sultan of Turkey" Ilya Repin (1844-1930) This is a painting of a Ukrainian cossack writting a letter to a Turkish sultan telling him to FO. Radovic, you are wrong. Cossacks are the pride of Ukraine. This painting is in every Ukrainian household as much as Kosovska Devojka is in Serbian households. The Russians did their best to Russify everyone & anyone, but the cossacks are Ukrainian. The Cossacks are neither Russians and Ukrainians. They share a same ethnogenesis with both nations but they consider themselves seperate from both groups. Not only that but in Russia they are all pro-Russian, same with the Ukrainian. The largest Cossack group is in Crimea and forms the basis of Crimea's pro-Russian extremist -- same with all of southern Ukraine. Ukrainians consdier Cossacks to be so-called "Proto-Ukrainians" -- i.e. retaining characteristics of the Ukrainians before a distinct Ukrainian identity developed, hence why the Ukrainian refuses to even recognize them as a seperate ethnoculutral group.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 11, 2008 23:46:36 GMT -5
Its ridiculous to suggest cossacks are not Ukrainian…
Cossacks were Ukrainian – they were protecting the Ukrainian Steppes…the “Kyiv Rus Emprie” from the Turks, Tatars, Polish Lithuanian Empires….
When the Cossacks were weakened the Hetman (cossack leader) Bohdan Hmelnitsky sought a treaty with the Muscovian Emprie (i.e. now Russia) to help them….this is where Ukraines allegiance with Russia started and where the Russification of Ukraine took its first step…
The Zaporozhian Cossacks in south eastern Ukraine is hwere the first Cossacks are from.
After some time Katerina the Great disbanded them and sent them to different parts of the soviet union…
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Post by radovic on Dec 12, 2008 1:01:17 GMT -5
Its ridiculous to suggest cossacks are not Ukrainian… Cossacks were Ukrainian – they were protecting the Ukrainian Steppes…the “Kyiv Rus Emprie” from the Turks, Tatars, Polish Lithuanian Empires…. The Cossacks were an identifiable group before a distinctly Ukrainian population existed. Kievan that Jyiv Rus is the precursor to the modern Russian state, one can argue the exact same about them being Russians. The Cossacks see this differently. Who beter to know there own history then the Cossacks.
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Post by SKORIC on Dec 12, 2008 1:04:46 GMT -5
I always thought of Ukraine and Russia as the same as Crna Gora and Serbia. Monteregro and Ukraine were where the first Serbian and Russian states were. I thought they'd be pretty much the same thing but became abit different through time?
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 12, 2008 1:15:41 GMT -5
Skoric, the Ukrainian & Russian language is completely different for a start. Totally different people as different as any of the former soviet countries.
Radovic, you don't know what you're talking about on this one.
All Cossacks originated in Ukraine and migrated or were forced to other parts of the soviet union (i.e. now in parts of Russia)….
There are still Cossacks as far away as Siberia who sing songs in the Ukrainian language.
The Cossacks Slogan they lived by was “Boh I Ukrayina” “God & Ukraine” and were the protectors of the orthodox faith.
I'm not exactly sure but I'd say Ukraine was orthodox before Russia was….Ukraine got it in 988 from Volodimir Veliki….it was the Kyiv Rus emprie then….
Russia didn’t even exist at that time…
And Russia cannot claim Kyiv Rus as its own btw.
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Post by SKORIC on Dec 12, 2008 1:24:14 GMT -5
hmm when i was watching Russian history on the history channel it started from kiev rus so im going by what i watched there
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Post by radovic on Dec 12, 2008 10:10:12 GMT -5
The Russian and Belarussian nations originate in the Ukraine also, it doesn't mean that they are Ukrainians. The same can be said for all Slavic nations, doesn't make them Ukrainian.
Small numbers descendants of those expelled from the Ukraine. The vast majoirty of cossacks in Ukraine and Russia sue the Russian language.
Ukrayina has the same meaning as Krajina in Serbia. It can be used to refer to any region or territory -- i.e. Kninska Krajina, Timocka Krajina, etc...
Kievan Rus is a precursor to the Russian state, and Kievan Rus cannot be claimed to be an exclusively Ukrainian.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 12, 2008 10:17:56 GMT -5
i dunno dudez, once i had to read both the russian subaru site and the ukranian subaru site for a little research i was doing on the new forester 2.5 XT, and i found both sites amazingly similar, + i could read the basic parts with the few serbian i know...
besides that, i read somewhere that Ukraine and Russia is like Bosnia and Serbia half of ukranians have family in Russia, dual citizenship etc...
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Post by radovic on Dec 12, 2008 10:21:48 GMT -5
i dunno dudez, once i had to read both the russian subaru site and the ukranian subaru site for a little research i was doing on the new forester 2.5 XT, and i found both sites amazingly similar, + i could read the basic parts with the few serbian i know... besides that, i read somewhere that Ukraine and Russia is like Bosnia and Serbia half of ukranians have family in Russia, dual citizenship etc... It's more complex. They seem to share a common ethnogenesis but they are seperate nations. Aside from Kievan Rus, everything else is different. And as arsenije has pointed out the Russians carried out Russification in the Ukraine -- probably the most successful such project.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 12, 2008 10:47:08 GMT -5
The Russian and Belarussian nations originate in the Ukraine also, it doesn't mean that they are Ukrainians. The same can be said for all Slavic nations, doesn't make them Ukrainian. You were trying to say that they are more Russian. They are more Ukrainian out of all possibilities, if that's even debatable. Small numbers descendants of those expelled from the Ukraine. The vast majoirty of cossacks in Ukraine and Russia sue the Russian language. Practically every single Ukrainian as well as every other minority in the USSR know how to speak Russian because they were forced to! Most Ukrainians sadly speak Russian to this day because that was the soviet policy. Ukrayina has the same meaning as Krajina in Serbia. It can be used to refer to any region or territory -- i.e. Kninska Krajina, Timocka Krajina, etc... No. Ukrainian is a specific language and culture. That's ridiculous. Kievan Rus is a precursor to the Russian state, and Kievan Rus cannot be claimed to be an exclusively Ukrainian. Well it definitely wasn't Russian! Nopes, it was Ukrainian.
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Post by bog on Dec 12, 2008 10:51:08 GMT -5
I respect how you look at Cetniks. But you ought to respect the way I look at Ustasas, as noble freedom fighters who wanted to save Croats and us Boslims from the wrath of the Serb monarchy..
RIP to all freedom fighting UStasas!!!
we will once again make Croatia to the Drina river!!!
your boslim brothers supoprt you 100%....
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