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Post by Banatski on Oct 3, 2008 15:59:37 GMT -5
India, Russia to develop 2 versions of 5th-generation fighter. 29/09/2008 15:03 NEW DELHI, September 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India will jointly develop two versions of a new fifth-generation fighter, the head of an Indian defense company said on Monday. A Russian-Indian advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under an intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007. "The aircraft will have different wings, electronics and radars," HAL Chairman Ashok K. Baweja said after a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military technical cooperation in New Delhi. He also said India will develop a two-seat version to meet the requirements of the Indian air superiority doctrine, while Russia will develop a single-seat fighter. Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it had started the construction of a prototype of the fifth-generation fighter, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets. The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East. Flight tests of the fifth-generation fighter will begin as early as 2009, and mass production of the aircraft may start by 2015, Sukhoi said. Russia's military cooperation with India goes back nearly half a century, and the country accounts for about 40% of Russian arms exports. Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow. The previous meeting took place in the Russian capital in October 2007. en.rian.ru/world/20080929/117251004.html
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Post by Banatski on Oct 3, 2008 16:01:18 GMT -5
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 3, 2008 18:56:46 GMT -5
They are not going to built 2 versions of it, but they are going to make the PAK FA, and dumbed down versions for India, and perhaps even Brazil... It will have super cruise, and the last thing I heard was that it would fly in 2009, and enter service in 2012.. but they change this all the time, so I do not know who to belivie...
I think that it will have its weapons on the outside on hard points, and not inside.. just go on wiki and type PAK FA
I don't know, one one hand I like planes, and tech, on the other hand, I don't like Russia and the US getting into an arms race over fighters... We, the Balkans would just be the falloutplace for nukes, LoL
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Post by karabin on Oct 3, 2008 23:05:14 GMT -5
In appearance, some parts of the plane look kind of similar to the F-22 Raptor and/or the F-35 JSF.
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Post by markosijekira on Oct 4, 2008 8:05:50 GMT -5
The PAK-FA has been on the drawing board for a long time, there is a crap load of different concept art for it. It went from a more conventional SU based design to more radical stealth frame. By cooperating with other countries the Russians are following the US example with its JSF project which several other NATO countries are part of. When in production it will probably not replace the latest versions of the Mig29 and SU27, but serve in elite frontline squadrons. The US is doing the same thing with the F-22, its so advanced and expensive that only up to 200 will be built (currently at 120+ i think) and serve in front line squadrons. The JSF i think will replace the F-16 and F-18s. Upgraded 4th gen fighters still have a decent service life ahead of them.
"In appearance, some parts of the plane look kind of similar to the F-22 Raptor and/or the F-35 JSF"
Not unusual, they are optimal frames. Although I have seen PAK-FA concept art with forward swept wings, which looks very neat. In the 70s the US based its F-15 design on the Mig-25 externally. at the time though the US was not aware of the limited role of the Mig25 as a ultra high speed interceptor.
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 4, 2008 9:00:16 GMT -5
The PAK-FA has been on the drawing board for a long time, there is a crap load of different concept art for it. It went from a more conventional SU based design to more radical stealth frame. By cooperating with other countries the Russians are following the US example with its JSF project which several other NATO countries are part of. When in production it will probably not replace the latest versions of the Mig29 and SU27, but serve in elite frontline squadrons. The US is doing the same thing with the F-22, its so advanced and expensive that only up to 200 will be built (currently at 120+ i think) and serve in front line squadrons. The JSF i think will replace the F-16 and F-18s. Upgraded 4th gen fighters still have a decent service life ahead of them. "In appearance, some parts of the plane look kind of similar to the F-22 Raptor and/or the F-35 JSF" Not unusual, they are optimal frames. Although I have seen PAK-FA concept art with forward swept wings, which looks very neat. In the 70s the US based its F-15 design on the Mig-25 externally. at the time though the US was not aware of the limited role of the Mig25 as a ultra high speed interceptor. I don't know Russian, but i typed it in bablefish, there it said that the PAK FA program would replace the Su-27s and MiG-29s.... I don't see Russia being a "player" in the world unless they replace their fighter fleets, when the JSF comes up, 4th generation would be lagging behind, on the other hand the JSF I think it will not have supercruise,,, not sure... If you want to know how the PAK FA will be, you have the Suhoi "berkut" program, and the MiG 1,44 both were to be made for the SU, but they collapsed... Russia now, to me it seems, talks more about its army then uses it, in the Georgian operations, Russian troops were riding on the outside of their APCs most of the time... I don't know if the PAK FA will be made, but if its made, it would be interesting to see how Russian engineering has done since the collapse of the SU, all my information is from Wiki, so... The Raptor was meant to replace the F-15s.... but... anyways, most 4th generation fighters that have been made are getting old, like they rolled out in the 1980s for their maiden flight... So I don't see how the west can stil use its f-16s, and the russians their mig-29s... atm the VVS doesn't deploy more then 1500 fighters i think, 500 Flankers 500 Folcrums 300 MiG-31 and 200 "others"... but they have about a 1000 Su-24s and su-25s....
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 4, 2008 9:02:09 GMT -5
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 4, 2008 9:03:07 GMT -5
I did not want to talk politics here, but "you" the serbs, need to get over the russians, they do not care about you, as much are you care about them, I just said it since I doubt the OP cared about fighet planes, but about russia, sorry if I was wrong, lol
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 4, 2008 9:04:36 GMT -5
anyways, these are the two planes, that will be "used" to make the PAK FA.......
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Post by markosijekira on Oct 4, 2008 9:46:47 GMT -5
4.5 gen fighters have a long life ahead of them. Although they are all based on the 4th gen frames from the 80s their avionics are all up to date, with fly by wire and full glass cockpits. The typhoon Eurofighter and the Rafal have only started to be placed in serial production a few years ago, but they are 4.5 gen fighters with the best avionic available today. There is also the cost issue, its cheaper to upgrade 4th gen fighters to 4.5 then replacing them with 5th gen fighters, and the only 5th gen in serial production right now is the raptor, and only 200 of these will be built, that’s nowhere near to replace any significant number of USAF, Air National guard planes. 4.5 will have to soldier on for a while longer, until the frames are at their service life end. Planes can have quite a long life span, the B-52s are still operational, the F-14 flew for almost 30 years, and the F4 is still in use in some countries.
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 4, 2008 10:02:24 GMT -5
4.5 gen fighters have a long life ahead of them. Although they are all based on the 4th gen frames from the 80s their avionics are all up to date, with fly by wire and full glass c**kpits. The typhoon Eurofighter and the Rafal have only started to be placed in serial production a few years ago, but they are 4.5 gen fighters with the best avionic available today. There is also the cost issue, its cheaper to upgrade 4th gen fighters to 4.5 then replacing them with 5th gen fighters, and the only 5th gen in serial production right now is the raptor, and only 200 of these will be built, that’s nowhere near to replace any significant number of USAF, Air National guard planes. 4.5 will have to soldier on for a while longer, until the frames are at their service life end. Planes can have quite a long life span, the B-52s are still operational, the F-14 flew for almost 30 years, and the F4 is still in use in some countries. I was talking about the Russian and US fighter fleets, not the new european ones such as tycoon and gripen... the B-52 is just used to fire of crouise misiles, or carpet bomb, it does not take the same stress as a fighter, fighters should not serve more then 20 years... In a way I guess this is good, then the Ruskies and Amere will not have the means to kill each other and the world doesnt get nuked
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Post by karabin on Oct 4, 2008 10:24:50 GMT -5
I did not want to talk politics here, but "you" the serbs, need to get over the russians, they do not care about you, as much are you care about them, I just said it since I doubt the OP cared about fighet planes, but about russia, sorry if I was wrong, lol Just like you albanians and alike need to get over USA/NATO. There is no need in stating the obvious. We all already know that no one moves a finger in the 21st century purely out of love or some human rights or "democracy". Whenever great powers intervene on the behalf of a puppet then that is most definitely out of their own interest(s). As far us serbs being happy about new russian state of the art military equipment is concerned, well we'll go with anything as long as we see the yanks go down. I even cheer for Iran!!! As much as you albos hate russians and slavs all together we hate you and the west just as much.
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Post by markosijekira on Oct 4, 2008 10:43:15 GMT -5
"I was talking about the Russian and US fighter fleets, not the new european ones such as tycoon and gripen...
the B-52 is just used to fire of crouise misiles, or carpet bomb, it does not take the same stress as a fighter, fighters should not serve more then 20 years... In a way I guess this is good, then the Ruskies and Amere will not have the means to kill each other and the world doesnt get nuked "
US and Russian 4th gen fighter fleets are just to large to be replaced by 5th gen fighters anytime soon. This will be a long and gradual process, and the 4.5gen upgrades will still make up the bulk of both air forces for a while. Like I said, the F-22 Raptors will only be produced in small numbers, even the JSF will take a while. I imagine if the PAK-FA ever goes to serial production it will be in limited numbers. Russia still needst to upgrade the bulk of its fleet to 4.5 gen status, as the backbone is made up of 4th gen fighters.
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 4, 2008 10:49:33 GMT -5
Yeah, but... if the Russians jumped over the 4,5 stange, and went on to make, lets say a 1000 PAK FA s.... they would again be a "power" in the world, and you could conserve all those flankers and folcrums for nedajboze, btw have you seen the Su-34...
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 4, 2008 10:51:24 GMT -5
anyways, I just dont know how much money the russians have, and what they plan on doing, lol... but it will be intresting to see how the PAK FA will look like, the RF VVS stil need to overcome things such as lack of flighthours... then again I am not sure if western forces are doing any better
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Post by markosijekira on Oct 4, 2008 12:02:59 GMT -5
"Yeah, but... if the Russians jumped over the 4,5 stange, and went on to make, lets say a 1000 PAK FA s.... they would again be a "power" in the world, and you could conserve all those flankers and folcrums for nedajboze, btw have you seen the Su-34... "
Ideally you would want to go from 4th gen to 5th en mass, but cost, production limitations and the long research and development phase prevent that. The PAK-FA for example needs several more years of testing on both in computer simulations and prototype testing; you would probably not see the first production models for another 7 years. That’s a long gap, and that gap has to be filled by 4th gen upgrades to keep up with modern tech. Even when the PAK-FA is ready for serial production, given its advanced design and cost it would be a low level production, probably no more the 30 a year, which means it would take a while to replace say 500 frontline Mig29s. Even the US is producing the Raptor at a level of 20 per year. Yes the Russian Air Force certainly needs more flying hours, which is increasing every year as funds increase. Logistics and Infrastructure also need a major overhaul, it's a daunting task to modernize such a large air force that has been neglected for over 10 years, but they are moving in the right direction, and I think they will get the job done.
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Post by zloca on Oct 5, 2008 1:35:26 GMT -5
Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA [Tactical Frontline Fighter 2012]
News: Russia finish and show the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA nozzle's [ First time view in YOU-TUBE ] [ PowerRussia ]
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Oct 5, 2008 22:05:32 GMT -5
"Yeah, but... if the Russians jumped over the 4,5 stange, and went on to make, lets say a 1000 PAK FA s.... they would again be a "power" in the world, and you could conserve all those flankers and folcrums for nedajboze, btw have you seen the Su-34... " Ideally you would want to go from 4th gen to 5th en mass, but cost, production limitations and the long research and development phase prevent that. The PAK-FA for example needs several more years of testing on both in computer simulations and prototype testing; you would probably not see the first production models for another 7 years. That’s a long gap, and that gap has to be filled by 4th gen upgrades to keep up with modern tech. Even when the PAK-FA is ready for serial production, given its advanced design and cost it would be a low level production, probably no more the 30 a year, which means it would take a while to replace say 500 frontline Mig29s. Even the US is producing the Raptor at a level of 20 per year. Yes the Russian Air Force certainly needs more flying hours, which is increasing every year as funds increase. Logistics and Infrastructure also need a major overhaul, it's a daunting task to modernize such a large air force that has been neglected for over 10 years, but they are moving in the right direction, and I think they will get the job done. Good overall explanation. The PAK-FA project is long ways away from being finished. If anything, test trials for a flight model will begin in 2012, and enter service by 2018. Russia is in a major resurgence, economically and militarily, but they are only catching up. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the military didn't even receive 5% of the funding they would usually get. It fell apart, and now they are on the road to a quick recovery. Russian Military commanders have stated that they would like to re-engineer the Russian Federal Army Order of Battle, and to redesign the Military Districts from Kaliningrad to Anadyr (Basically from Coast to Coast).
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 6, 2008 16:01:39 GMT -5
Do any of you guys know how many fighters the USAF fields... I found it on wiki for the RF VVS, but I could not find it for the USAF, thanks Mig und Marko..
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Post by markosijekira on Oct 6, 2008 22:40:04 GMT -5
"Good overall explanation. The PAK-FA project is long ways away from being finished. If anything, test trials for a flight model will begin in 2012, and enter service by 2018. Russia is in a major resurgence, economically and militarily, but they are only catching up. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the military didn't even receive 5% of the funding they would usually get. It fell apart, and now they are on the road to a quick recovery. Russian Military commanders have stated that they would like to re-engineer the Russian Federal Army Order of Battle, and to redesign the Military Districts from Kaliningrad to Anadyr (Basically from Coast to Coast)."
Absolutely, it doesn’t matter that the Air force now receives adequate funds, you can have all the money in the world, but a air force that went through the kind of hell the Russian air force did, it just takes time to rebuild that infrastructure. They are on the right track, they have the know how, the resources and the people.
"Do any of you guys know how many fighters the USAF fields... I found it on wiki for the RF VVS, but I could not find it for the USAF, thanks Mig und Marko.."
The USAF has about 4,700 aircraft and another 1,900 reserve and national guard aircraft (usualy older blocks) about 2,400 are fighters F-15 -730 F-15E -224 F-22 -122 F-16 -1,245
Plus the Navy and the USMC have about 877 F-18s of different blocks
These are not offical numbers but I think they are close to acurate. A very impressive arsenal. The US also fields one of the best pilot training programs in the world, although german Luftwaffe pilots on many ocasions beat USAF pilots in mock combat.
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