|
Post by tito on Dec 14, 2008 2:45:41 GMT -5
Eye for an eye leaves everyone blind! The 11th genocide leaves the Bosniaks people without a country and we cant allowed that. 1993 was the turning point for the Bosniak people. Never again as the Jews say.
|
|
|
Post by bob1389 on Dec 14, 2008 2:48:21 GMT -5
I saw this posted on another forum and it's sick. Am totally against stuff like this.
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Dec 14, 2008 2:55:45 GMT -5
Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind has truth to it.
However, we are already being blinded, therefore the logical thing would be not to be the only one receiving, but to dish out. Both being blind sounds alot better then just us.
|
|
|
Post by servus on Dec 14, 2008 3:00:37 GMT -5
And when the war really hits, I doubt most or any Serb or Bosniak on this forum will be down there in the trenches fighting. Another war would be a tragedy beyond imagination, and some of the excitement I see in some posts here and in other threads makes me wonder... People are giddy like its 1914 and their off to fight the Huns or Ivan and will be back by Christmas/Ramadan whatever. I know some of you are just trying to be funny with your genocide talk or what not, but I think we all suspect the war will come; ugh the thought of it makes me shiver.
Well said! A lot of Serbs are deluded in this forum. But now i see also some Bosnians are deluded too. To think that War will solve their problems of territory? What will happen if such a war happened will be loss of life, loss of territory, and more division.
Nothing good can come out of it.
|
|
|
Post by markosijekira on Dec 14, 2008 3:05:58 GMT -5
"What's the alternative? Wait a little longer when Bosnia is in better shape and THEN f**k it up and start over? Cuz conflict IS coming, weather i, you, or anyone wants it or not. One day it will happen." No just wait till all of us from the war generation die out, and then build for peace It may take half a century, give or take a decade. But once again, war, it will only make things worse. I suspect many Bosniaks want a war so they can ethnically cleanse Bosnia of Serbs or scare them enough to leave like Oluja, no Serbs no problem, since I seriously doubt you could expect the Serbs to live like good proper citizens after their little republic had been overrun my the "federation". And I imagine many Serbs would be delighted at the prospect of integration into Serbia, maybe even expend the "republic" a little and hope big papa bear would come in and throw down the gauntlet. Sure Bosnia isn’t looking very good, and it will go to war, if people keep thinking like you, we don’t want war, but we need war to make it better because we haven’t settled our account yet. Ahh this is pointless, you should just pack in, and move back to Bosnia and start oiling your gun and get ready for settling accounts...
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Dec 14, 2008 3:12:38 GMT -5
"What's the alternative? Wait a little longer when Bosnia is in better shape and THEN f**k it up and start over? Cuz conflict IS coming, weather i, you, or anyone wants it or not. One day it will happen." No just wait till all of us from the war generation die out, and then build for peace It may take half a century, give or take a decade. But once again, war, it will only make things worse. I suspect many Bosniaks want a war so they can ethnically cleanse Bosnia of Serbs or scare them enough to leave like Oluja, no Serbs no problem, since I seriously doubt you could expect the Serbs to live like good proper citizens after their little republic had been overrun my the "federation". And I imagine many Serbs would be delighted at the prospect of integration into Serbia, maybe even expend the "republic" a little and hope big papa bear would come in and throw down the gauntlet. Sure Bosnia isn’t looking very good, and it will go to war, if people keep thinking like you, we don’t want war, but we need war to make it better because we haven’t settled our account yet. Ahh this is pointless, you should just pack in, and move back to Bosnia and start oiling your gun and get ready for settling accounts... Heh yea right, dream on. People dont forget shit from world war 1 let alone from the 90's. New kids are WORSE in fact cuz they didnt change after war, they are TAUGHT to be cautious and hate. That shit dont work, it's a dream. Let me put this simply. When you are being attacked and provoked, and have tried for years to be the "nice guy", it's time to resort to the only thing that enemy understands. Physical force. Sometimes there really isn't any other answer. What you guys are saying its better to live a s**tty mediocre existence forever, then to risk something and stand up. Albanians sure as hell didn't do that in Kosovo servus. Croats sure as hell didn't do that. When you are attacked and provoked and you had enough you respond. Don't ask us to do different. Nothing good can come out of this reality that we have right now. And again, I don't like war or wish it on my family, but SOMETHING firm has to be done. You guys are using the same argument that the world used to rob us of our right to defend ourselves by putting a embargo on us. "If we give them guns too there will only be more killing so let just one side die". f**k that.
|
|
Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
|
Post by Trazi Vise on Dec 14, 2008 3:16:59 GMT -5
The blind comment is too true, I used to live by that quote but forgot who's it was...the thing is what is happening over there is not really our doing internally...just think about it. Dayton was created for a reason, and when the time comes, Bosnia will be attacked and provoked again (hence reason for revenge); and naturally people won't sit by again. Can't you see they are giving us a reason to retaliate?
|
|
|
Post by markosijekira on Dec 14, 2008 4:03:50 GMT -5
Who has raped mothers and killed children in the last 15 years? There is hate and bigotry, people don’t trust each other, and that is a reason to go to war? My cousin was shot by Serbs in 93 and my grandfather was burned alive in a Croat mortar attack in 95, if I could get my hands on the people that pulled the trigger I would kill them with my bare hands, but I will not hate their families are try kill them for it. What are you going to do? Shoot a Serb teenager because he hates you? What are you going to do, when your brigade marches into a village and starts shooting people because they are so enraged with hate and a lust for revenge? You think that won’t happen? What will you do? You don't want war, yet you want it, you want to see them suffer, you want to humiliate them, like your people suffered. You want to collectively punish them all for the last war. Oh I know people still remember past wars and they don’t forget. Serbs cried revenge for NDH crimes in 1942 when they entered Croatian villages in 1991, was that justified? 15 years vs 45, what does it matter? Bleiburg was a slap on the wrist compared to Jasenovac, the Serbs feel it wasn’t enough punishment. Should Banja Luka be flattened to the ground like Vukovar for the Srebrenica genocide? And the war breaks out, what then? You fight, people die in the thousands the country burns, and finally you win, and then what?
Kids are brought up to hate, today’s young men, most not even old enough to remember the war let alone to have fought in it, they will go and shoot at each other. Admir and Jovan shooting at each other, both 18 years old, neither having ever harmed a Serb or Bosniak, both just babies in the last war, what is the point of that? Because it is their generation that will be going into the trenches first, to young to remember the last war, but burning with hate.
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Dec 14, 2008 4:09:35 GMT -5
You obviosly don't know much about it. In Fazlagic Kula alone 3-4 returnees were killed. theres been attacks with grenades and mines. Beatings. Letters with threats of slaughter. Burning of mosque both there and in Kljuc right by there. You expect Bosniaks to sit in their home while outside their window cetnik songs are sung on a regular basis? The cetnik police don't defend s**t, in fact they were in the newspapers themselves for beating returnees. And this is a VERY SMALL place we're talking about and only recently. let alone all the cases of this you could find in BiH.
Or maybe youre ok with only Admir getting shot at, while Jovan goes scot free.
Eastern herzegovina especialy Gacko is a f**kin NEST of cetniks. Been proven time and time again. Their hate dont die.
Talk all you want, but when I'm threatened and attacked I respond and defend myself if I can. Enough is enough. Thank your lucky stars we are nothing like the "big bad terrorist radical muslims" they potray us as. Cuz if we were thered be explosions in RS and Serbia every week.
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Dec 14, 2008 4:20:50 GMT -5
btw what im proposing first and foremost is defensive. people defending themselves. and this would take armed groups and some organization in these areas where bosniaks are practicly an endengared species. kinda like balkan nieghborhood watch not killing random serbs.
|
|
|
Post by markosijekira on Dec 14, 2008 4:36:44 GMT -5
You obviosly don't know much about it. In Fazlagic Kula alone 3-4 returnees were killed. theres been attacks with grenades and mines. Beatings. Letters with threats of slaughter. Burning of mosque both there and in Kljuc right by there. You expect Bosniaks to sit in their home while outside their window cetnik songs are sung on a regular basis? The cetnik police don't defend s**t, in fact they were in the newspapers themselves for beating returnees. And this is a VERY SMALL place we're talking about and only recently. let alone all the cases of this you could find in BiH. Or maybe youre ok with only Admir getting shot at, while Jovan goes scot free. Eastern herzegovina especialy Gacko is a f**kin NEST of cetniks. Been proven time and time again. Their hate dont die. Talk all you want, but when I'm threatened and attacked I respond and defend myself if I can. Enough is enough. Thank your lucky stars we are nothing like the "big bad terrorist radical muslims" they potray us as. Cuz if we were thered be explosions in RS and Serbia every week. you did not answer my questions. Instead you talk about beatings and chetniks singing. You want to go kill Serbs in Pancevo because some bigot thugs killed 4 bosniaks in Fazlagic kula? First its revenge for what happened before Dayton now its for the incidents that happened after Dayton. Many Serbs are itching for a fight as well, like you say their hate doesn’t' die, and here they are trying to provoke you into making the first war move. Do you really want to go down on their level? Because that is what it will take to get your revenge. And if you do, what will there be left? This is a honest question, because I don’t know you, but have you actually done anything to build Bosnia and help people there have a better future? Would you move there and work for a charity to feed the displaced to build schools and invest your sweat and tears to rebuild what is still ravaged. Or can you not do that until all Serbs have been put in their place? Again just a question, not an attack on your person, as somebody of mixed background who lost on both sides I cannot view things from your perspective just trying to understand, reasoning beyond just pure lust for revenge.
|
|
|
Post by markosijekira on Dec 14, 2008 4:38:58 GMT -5
"btw what im proposing first and foremost is defensive. people defending themselves. and this would take armed groups and some organization in these areas where bosniaks are practicly an endengared species. kinda like balkan nieghborhood watch
not killing random serbs. "
I got no problem with this!!
|
|
|
Post by markosijekira on Dec 14, 2008 4:41:27 GMT -5
BTW im opposed to the Idea of RS splitting from BiH
|
|
|
Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Dec 14, 2008 5:01:26 GMT -5
markosijekira, your opinions contain the most logic & humanity. However, the way I see it, it's the easiest for a Croat such as your self to speak like that when most Serbs have been kicked out of Croatia & are likely never to return. A lot haven't sold their property there, but that's another story... Croats won everything in Krajina against the Serbs, won the war & f**ked us over so I kind of think your perspective should be the easiest to have amongst Croats if you give half a crap… though it really isn't the prevailing perspective. Personally, I think that Republika Srpska can separate peacefully, even if it's a long way away. Then again, the European union is massively changing the definition of what a country in Europe is, so that could also have a significant influence on the prevailing political situation.
|
|
|
Post by whateva on Dec 14, 2008 6:13:15 GMT -5
Plans to cut off and take western RS have been in existence since the end of war and its been planed by both Federation and Croat military. But now that the armed forces are united I'm not sure that plan can be fully implemented at least not as quick as they thought it could be done. Mobilization alone would take full month, so any offensive actions would be done by the police in the first month of war. And if they would manage to get any towns under our control they would be under strict orders not to touch even one civilian because the last thing you want is pictures of "Muslim fanatics killing Christians in Europe". All it would come down to is taking over locations where local defense can be organized, disarmament of local police force and complete martial law in each city that gets liberated. There would be strong police presence in every street and every corner of every town, civilians wouldn't be allowed to leave their homes until things quiet down and then they would be presented with the option, stay and live in BiH, respect our laws and respect this country or pack your bags and leave.
|
|
|
Post by markosijekira on Dec 14, 2008 6:24:21 GMT -5
I think what happened it Krajina was a tragic thing, I think Croatia had every right to reestablish control over the region, but it could have been done without the end result being the expulsion of Serb civilians. Yes there is the whole "they left voluntarily" argument, and many fled at just the sound of guns approaching, but this was very much encouraged by the leadership in Zagreb. Most people in Krajina were simple peasants and not radical Serb nationalists. I had family on the other side of that front, like I said before; the whole thing just upsets me. Should Croats still look for revenge for Vukovar? Should Serbs go to war with Croatia for what happened in Oluja...it wont do any good, revenge as a motive for war will end in disaster, if the west would actually let all out war break out. I wish Croatian Gov would do more to help integrate Serbs returning home and not face discrimination, I wish Serbia would have treated Croatian Serb refugees better, most of my family from my fathers side fled there, and were not welcomed with open arms, I wish too much I guess. My life is too short to burn it on hate, I won’t get anything out of it, and it won’t bring back the people I lost. My cousin Davor was like an older brother to me, he was cut down by Serb fire, I would like to hurt the man that pulled the trigger, but what use will collective hate bring me? I'm just glad I live in community here where all ex yugos (mostly from Bosnia) get along very well.
|
|
|
Post by markosijekira on Dec 14, 2008 6:39:18 GMT -5
Plans to cut off and take western RS have been in existence since the end of war and its been planed by both Federation and Croat military. But now that the armed forces are united I'm not sure that plan can be fully implemented at least not as quick as they thought it could be done. Mobilization alone would take full month, so any offensive actions would be done by the police in the first month of war. And if they would manage to get any towns under our control they would be under strict orders not to touch even one civilian because the last thing you want is pictures of "Muslim fanatics killing Christians in Europe". All it would come down to is taking over locations where local defense can be organized, disarmament of local police force and complete martial law in each city that gets liberated. There would be strong police presence in every street and every corner of every town, civilians wouldn't be allowed to leave their homes until things quiet down and then they would be presented with the option, stay and live in BiH, respect our laws and respect this country or pack your bags and leave.
You know it would not work out like that. As soon as war starts all plans go to shit. There is too much anger and need for revenge; things would get out of hand very quickly. First, in BiH neither the RS nor the Federation have anything worth calling a proper army right now, 15,000 total strength for both including reserves under arms in active brigade formations. Very limited number MBT's IFV's APC's and little tube and rocket artillery. Logistics are very limited as well. It would take more then a month to raise a proper army. Just calling up people and giving them guns will not do. New formations have to be activated, massive amounts of hardware must be provided quickly, and in order to fight modern combined warfare the veterans of the old war need to retrained, because otherwise the war will just deteriorate into what it was last time around. No element of suprise, giving both sides enough time to gear for war You cant take cities with just Light Infantry bare minimum on Artillery and Tanks. Croatia will not enter without NATO approval, NATO will not tolerate another war and will probably end it before it really starts and just deploy forces all over the place again.
|
|
|
Post by tito on Dec 14, 2008 6:49:10 GMT -5
You know it would not work out like that. As soon as war starts all plans go to s**t. There is too much anger and need for revenge; things would get out of hand very quickly. First, in BiH neither the RS nor the Federation have anything worth calling a proper army right now, 15,000 total strength for both including reserves under arms in active brigade formations. Very limited number MBT's IFV's APC's and little tube and rocket artillery. Logistics are very limited as well. It would take more then a month to raise a proper army. Just calling up people and giving them guns will not do. New formations have to be activated, massive amounts of hardware must be provided quickly, and in order to fight modern combined warfare the veterans of the old war need to retrained, because otherwise the war will just deteriorate into what it was last time around. No element of suprise, giving both sides enough time to gear for war You cant take cities with just Light Infantry bare minimum on Artillery and Tanks. Croatia will not enter without NATO approval, NATO will not tolerate another war and will probably end it before it really starts and just deploy forces all over the place again. Honestly all of that sounds great compared to 1992, so when do we start? I mean if it’s as good as markosijekira makes it sound we have nothing to loose; BiH territories will be liberated Nato will prevent genocide = BiH will be a better place.
|
|
|
Post by whateva on Dec 14, 2008 6:56:00 GMT -5
You cant take cities with just Light Infantry bare minimum on Artillery and Tanks.
I agree with most of what you said but the statement above is wrong. Bosniaks have done it in the last war and if done quickly police alone can take most of smaller towns. That is where the element of surprise comes in. Serbs would expect a full scale mobilization before we attempt anything. At first sign of preparations for referendum in RS police goes in and thats pretty much it. Banjaluka and few other cities would have to be done by army and police combined, and unlike their epic songs suggest Serbs are not really that heroic and I wouldn't expect too much of resistance because they don't like to die much for their causes. When going gets tough Serbs run.
|
|
|
Post by fazlinho on Dec 14, 2008 6:58:51 GMT -5
There won't be any new war and I think that is crystal clear to everyone.
|
|