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Post by albanesehoney on Jan 4, 2008 21:31:48 GMT -5
What are you talking about? I said Themistocles was the hero of the day and he did beat the Persian fleet but it was the Athenians who ousted him from the Pelops...after the war.. Get the hatesludge out of your brain...I was agreeing with Nik's point that Greek" tribes did not all side with Athens in that Pelops war.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 4, 2008 21:40:13 GMT -5
You can close your mouth now...
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 4, 2008 22:13:14 GMT -5
By Teuta: By Niklianos: Aren't you either?
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Post by albanesehoney on Jan 4, 2008 22:42:39 GMT -5
Canaris if you're going to debate here, you need to show your stoic spartan warrior side and not that feminine emotional side, when defeated.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 4, 2008 23:52:40 GMT -5
I have never been defeated by an ALb..and never will be..... although they try to defecate all over our history.... we own them all the time..there is simply no competition.... ;D
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 5, 2008 2:54:13 GMT -5
By Teuta: By Niklianos: Aren't you either? UH NO Look at the legend on the right side of the map and read what it says. It says The Peloponnisian Wars It doesn't say Persian Wars. It only mentions Battles of the Persian Wars. Below the title The Peleponnesian Wars it mentions Athens and Allies, Sparta and Allies, Neutrals. So what would the CONTEXT of the Legend mean by Neutrals? Simple. It means the Greeks who were on neither the Athenian nor the Spartan sides!
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 5, 2008 3:03:14 GMT -5
You are correct, and that is why the majority of scholars question the notion that all those peoples of ancient balkans were greek or greek speaking... Even your own hero Themistocles was sent off to Persia...where he died, after beating the Persian fleet. It's no wonder you guys have such credibility problems with the int'l community. What are you talking about Honey? You keep mentioning 'scholars question' and so on but never show any academic sources. And what 'credibility problems'? The fact of the matter is that it is not questioned because it is a well established fact that the Ancient Greeks always fought each other. If they were not a big power then they would ally themselves with a City-State or territory that was, in order to gain an upper hand against one of their own enemies. Alliances also continuously changed sides for the previously mentioned reasons as well. In the end what it came down to is supremacy over trade, natural resources and slaves and in the case for the less prominent Greeks it was a way to improve their situations and to gain protection. If you want to get a good understanding of Greek politics read Thucydides' History of the Peleponnesian War. You will be amazed how many times different Greeks switched alliances with Athens and Sparta just to accomplish their own goals.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 5, 2008 13:41:36 GMT -5
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 5, 2008 14:30:10 GMT -5
In the Peloponnesian Wars, Pers supported Sparta (should I call them Sparta and allies??!!!) Aren't these Neutrals the ones who were not accepted in PanHellenic League??? What a coincidence!!! Or didn't want to participate in a War which wasn't theirs after all...In the end, those were considered Greek Tribes by some affinities (here often confusing the hellenized process as Greek) but far from being a "Greece" entity... No Sparta asked for FINANCIAL help against Athens the then dominant force in the Hellenic world. Persians did not fight. The Persians also later changes support and aided Athens. This would be the same situation as if one of the Big Powers today got involved in a war between neighbors and they wanted to influence the outcome without actually fighting. The Persians were only trying to weaken the Greeks in order to increase their strength over the Ionian Greeks. They also found a way to get pay back for loosing the war with the Greeks just a few decades earlier. Stop mixing the Persian Wars with the Peleponnesian Wars Teuta. The Pan-Hellenic league had nothing to do with the Peleponnesian Wars. It had to do with the Persian Wars. The only leagues during the the Peleponnesian Wars were the Delian League and the Peleponnesian League. So please stop the confusion. Here is a map of the Delian League. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Map_athenian_empire_431_BC-fr.svgHere's a little something about the Peleponnesian League. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_LeaguePersian Wars is the war involving the Pan Hellenic League. The Peloponnesian War has nothing to do with it! You and Albhoney have a huge conspiracy theory going on with everything Greek. You keep acting as if it was the Greeks themselves who have some kind of propoganda occuring in order to make everyone in the Ancient Balkans Greek. That is complete B.S! It is internationally recognized that all the tribes of the Ancient Balkans who are classified as Greek are just that, GREEK! The Greeks and others don't say the Illyrians or the Thracians were Greek! They don't say that the Dardanians were Greek. So why is that if according to your theory the Greeks try to claim everyone? Stop confusing modern Nationalism with archaeology and history. The people who are classified as Greeks are those who worship the Olympian Gods, speak a dialect of the same language and have similar customs and similar architecture. All these combined are what make a people Greek. The Southern Thracians along the Aegean coast were Hellenized by the Greek colonies and later became Greek through inter-marriage. The Thracians of the highlands(modern Bulgaria) retained their own culture, language, customs and were never Greek.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 5, 2008 15:18:51 GMT -5
I didn't say Persians fought...but Persians Supported Sparta during the Peloponnesian Wars...which means excactly that... support... I am not mixing....is only that it's a strange coincidence those NEUTRALS during the Pelop. Wars happen to be the same (Epirus) which was not addmited into Hellenic League....nothing to have to do with the wars...is just puzzling that Epirus appears to be kind of excluded from some important events of "Greek's world"...and by the way.... It is also interesting to take a look at the division of the League into five fiscal districts: Thrace (the northern Aegean): 62 towns, of which Ainos, Argilos, Mende, Potideia, Samothrace, Scione, Sermylia, Strepsa, Thasos, and Torone paid more than five talents. Hellespont: 45 towns, Abydus, Byzantium, Chalkedon, the Chersonese, Cyzicus, Lampsacus, Perinthus, and Selymbria paying more than five talents. Ionia (the eastern Aegean): 35 towns, including Cyme, Ephesus, Erythrae, Miletus, and Teos. Caria: 81 towns, including Camirus, Cnidus, Cos, Ialysus, Lindus, and Phaselis. and the islands: 29 towns, including Andros, Carystus, Chalcis, Eretria, Naxos, and Paros. Nice map...and nice info...thanks...and yet, I didn't find what I was looking for If Greeks would say Illyrians, Thracians and Dardanians were Greeks, then who else would be left in Balkans? Greeks in this case would be losing completely the credibility...Greeks are that smart...aren't they?? ;D That's all the point of this discussion (and the others we have had in the other Forum) Those who worship Olympian Gods are Hellenized people (not necessarily Greeks) Thank you very much. You have made my point... eventhough in a narrowly geographical position...
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Post by leandros nikon on Jan 6, 2008 9:18:57 GMT -5
dictionary.reference.com/browse/demagoguedem·a·gogue /ˈdɛməˌgɒg, -ˌgɔg/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dem-uh-gog, -gawg] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -gogued, -gogu·ing. –noun 1. a person, esp. an orator or political leader, who gains power and popularity by arousing the emotions, passions, and prejudices of the people. 2. (in ancient times) a leader of the people. –verb (used with object) 3. to treat or manipulate (a political issue) in the manner of a demagogue; obscure or distort with emotionalism, prejudice, etc. –verb (used without object) 4. to speak or act like a demagogue. Also, dem·a·gog. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Origin: 1640–50; < Gk démagōgós a leader of the people, popular leader, equiv. to dêm(os) people + agōgós leading, guiding; see -agogue] Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
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Post by leandros nikon on Jan 6, 2008 9:22:04 GMT -5
www.m-w.com/dictionary/sycophantMain Entry: sy·co·phant Pronunciation: \-fənt also -ˌfant\ Function: noun Etymology: Latin sycophanta slanderer, swindler, from Greek sykophantçs slanderer, from sykon fig + phainein to show — more at fancy Date: 1575 : a servile self-seeking flatterer
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Post by leandros nikon on Jan 6, 2008 9:28:00 GMT -5
come on greeks...ignore these insignificant illyrians...their main profession back then was piracy...and still remains... if teuta and honey could find a single illyrian coin from macedonia they would partying for weeks....bad luck,they cant.... ;D anyway,we made our point,enough evidence concerning the greekness of epirus and macedonia already...any logical human being would have been convinced...only such prejudiced persons keep arguing...while the modest albanian members are being silent...
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Post by albanesehoney on Jan 6, 2008 11:49:18 GMT -5
What are you talking about Honey? You keep mentioning 'scholars question' and so on but never show any academic sources. And what 'credibility problems'? The fact of the matter is that it is not questioned because it is a well established fact that the Ancient Greeks always fought each other. A few questions and doubts about authentic Ancient Greek antiques such as masks and bones: But other controversies continue to swirl around Schliemann and his legacy to archaeology. The most sensational of these surrounds the so-called "Mask of Agamemnon." Though it's not clear that the particular one now called the "Mask of Agamemnon" is the same that Schliemann first referred to by that name, he later allowed the famous bearded mask to bear that designation. It's far and away the most presentable of the masks Schliemann discovered in Mycenae, lacking the bulging eyes and puffed cheeks that make several of the others look ridiculous. In fact, the "Mask of Agamemnon" is particularly modern in its appearance, including a handle-bar moustache, something highly unusual in ancient art. More than one art historian has noted it looks remarkably like Schliemann himself, or perhaps Schliemann's idol, King Ludwig of Bavaria. To make matters even more complicated, those analyzing Schliemann's diaries and records have found a note from him requesting that a friend in Paris find him a goldsmith who would work without putting on his seal on the metal, an illegal activity. Schliemann himself visited France soon thereafter. This trip immediately precedes the discovery of the mask, and the question has naturally arisen, whether Schliemann went to Paris to have this mask forged for the very reason that he was planning to say to the world "I have looked on the face of Agamemnon," but had not found a death-mask warranting such a pronouncement, in other words, a discovery worthy of the headline. After all, he didn't want anyone to add, on the heels of such a momentous declaration, "Yes, and he looks like a large bug. Perhaps it's his brother Arthro-memnon?" It only complicates the issue further that Schliemann was himself directing the workers at Mycenae when they discovered this mask soon after he had returned from Paris. But if he had it forged, how did Schliemann sneak it into the site past the Greek guards who were watching his every move to prevent him from stealing artifacts from Greece as he had from Turkey? Perhaps they weren't inspecting his bags when he came into the site, only when he left. This is, of course, speculation based on circumstantial evidence without clear or convincing proof. And many possibilities besides outright forgery exist, particularly that the "Mask of Agamemnon" is genuine but Schliemann "improved" it by making it look more stylish for his day, adding or accentuating the moustache in particular. But if it was, in fact, counterfeited in any way, it would be one of the greatest con-jobs in history and would leave many a modern scholar red-faced at having been so completely taken in. Needless to say, the Greek government hasn't as yet allowed the sorts of tests to be done on the mask that could prove or refute its antiquity. Their official reason is that great damage could result to the mask in the testing process—the truth is greater damage could result to the Greek tourist industry if this national treasure were shown to be counterfeit—so the mystery remains a mystery, and Schliemann, too, is as controversial today as he ever was. One thing is for certain: Schliemann would love all the press coverage he is still getting. Link'If you like, this is where Greek history starts'DNA analysis of Bronze Age bones will answer an ancient question, reports David Adam The Guardian, Thursday May 27 2004 'I have seen the face of Agamemnon." No, not the reaction of filmgoers after seeing Brian Cox's depiction of the Greek king in Troy, but that of the celebrated 19th century archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann after digging up a striking Bronze Age gold mask from ancient Greece. Schliemann was not known for understatement - on excavating the ruins of Troy he said he had "opened a new world" for archaeology - but on this occasion he was wrong. The shaft graves at Mycenae where he found the mask have now been dated to 1500BC, and it would stretch even the historical flexibility of a Hollywood scriptwriter to place Agamemnon there several centuries before he led the Greeks in the Trojan war. The glittering death mask, treasure and the rest of the haul recovered from the graves were not his, but whose were they? The question has long puzzled archaeologists. "These burials are unique in the Bronze Age," says Keri Brown of the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology. "These people seem to have cornered the market in gold, so how did they do this, who were they and how did they have this power?" Working with the forensic science service, Brown and her team are turning to DNA fingerprints to solve the conundrum. Using genetic material painstakingly scraped from 3,500-year-old bones and teeth recovered from the graves, the scientists hope to establish whether the dozens of privileged individuals buried at Mycenae are part of the same family, or an unrelated collection of mercenary fighters. The answer will shine light on the social structure of one of the most influential periods in human history. "If you like, this is where Greek history starts," says John Prag, an expert in Greek archaeology at the Manchester museum. His group has already used facial reconstruction techniques to put flesh on the ancient bones and look for family resemblances, with some success. "We got a couple of pairs that were very clearly related but there comes a point where everybody's got two eyes, two ears, a nose and a mouth and we all look alike," Prag says. Clues from the bones have also suggested the sex of those buried at Mycenae, as well as how old they were when they died. "But you can't tell from bones who is related to who," says Brown. "Only DNA can do that." Scientists have worked out how to analyse strands of genetic material from animals and people who lived thousands of years ago. The key is being able to extract DNA from the hard structures like teeth and bones left behind after the rest of the corpse rots away. It's a tricky process, and the results are not always reliable, but researchers have used it to recover DNA from mammoths, sequence the genes of Neanderthals and confirm the identities of the Romanov family murdered during the Russian revolution. The DNA strands are often broken or degraded (seemingly scuppering our chances of cloning a mammoth), so to analyse the Mycenae skeletons the Manchester team and the forensic scientists are searching for new types of genetic markers that are shorter than those used in conventional DNA fingerprinting. To complicate matters, Schliemann painted them with a sticky preservative that plays havoc with the sensitive chemistry used to isolate and copy the DNA molecules. "We're spending a lot of time perfecting the experiments on other material before we tackle the Mycenae bones themselves," Brown says. "We want to get the extraction and analysis methods spot-on." The remains are carefully guarded by the National Museum in Athens; it took two years of form-filling and delicate negotiation to get the bone splinters and few odd teeth on the plane to Manchester. Of the 19 individuals buried in the grave Brown's team are interested in, she has bone or teeth samples from 10 of them. Preliminary work suggests a 40% success rate with the DNA technique, which mean the family secrets of just four ancient Greeks will be revealed. It's not much, but it's a start. "I'd like to go on to look at DNA from other bodies found in other parts of Greece from the same period," says Prag. "The modern Greeks would love to know they're descended from the ancient Greeks. But since 1500BC Greece has been invaded and occupied so many times I'm not sure we're going to get the answer they want." www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/may/27/science.research
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 6, 2008 12:42:29 GMT -5
Weather DNA... matches or not,it doesn't really matter for we are the bearers of their consciousness and their history.... we have protected it through their language and customs.... We are the ones that give the eternal light for the Olympics we are the ones that spread our forefathers history...we are the ones that are systematically restoring every artifact ever found... we are the ones fighting with London for the return of the marbles which the likes of you sold off..... and has tried to destroy so much of that same history.
So go peddle your goods somewhere where they give a chit....
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Post by leandros nikon on Jan 6, 2008 13:17:58 GMT -5
first of all,stay on topic...its about ancient macedonians and their nationality...
second,if we cant prove the blood purity of modern greeks,neither can you prove the blood purity of albanians...or french,or italians or portugese...why so many people seem so persistant concerning the greek DNA,i dont understand...
third,study the definition of the words sychofant and demagogue...suits you well...
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 6, 2008 13:25:19 GMT -5
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Post by leandros nikon on Jan 6, 2008 15:27:57 GMT -5
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 6, 2008 22:30:06 GMT -5
Video: Macedonia: Hellenism in MacedoniaIt would be difficult today to advance the claim that the Macedonians were not part of the ancient Greek world. Recent archaeological findings in conjunction with linguistic analysis and the discovery of large numbers of new inscriptions -all in Greek- with a vast range of Greek names prove that was never any break (either cultural or linguistic) in the unity of the Macedonians with the other Greeks. Indeed the dissemination of the Greek language and Greek culture throughout the known world by Alexander the Great and his Macedonians provides the most irrefutable confirmation of this. The unity of Macedonians and the rest of the Greeks is proved once more every year, with the finds brought to light at the major archaeological sites of Pella, Vergina, Dion and Sindos, and scores of less well-known sites (such as those in the Voio, Kozani, Kastoria, Florina, Edessa, Aridaia and Kilkis areas) and, of course, in Thessaloniki itself and in Chalkidiki.
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Post by leandros nikon on Jan 7, 2008 14:52:52 GMT -5
Titus Livius (around 59 BC - 17 AD), known as Livy in English, wrote a monumental history of Rome, Ab Urbe Condita, from its founding (traditionally dated to 753 BC) through the reign of Augustus.
Aetolos Acarnanas Macedonas, eiusdem linguae homines, leues ad tempus ortae causae diiungunt coniunguntque: cum alienigenis, cum barbaris aeternum omnibus Graecis bellum est eritque; natura enim, quae perpetua est, non mutabilibus in diem causis hostes sunt...
Translation: The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day... Liber XXXI, 29, 15
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