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Post by kartadolofonos on Nov 21, 2008 16:33:05 GMT -5
The "Moral Battle"Between Tirana and Athens "8500 Greek soldiers, heroes of the battles for resistance against Italian invaders in 1940, still are unexplored in the territories of Northern Epirus (Southern Albania). The Greeks in the region for many years systematically seeking the creation of cemeteries organized effort as a minimum performance to soldiers but also as a minimum-human moral obligation towards these heroes of the Greek nation, who wrote with their blood by a the most glorious page in modern Greek history. These efforts, however, on the way to the standing intolerance of the Albanian state motivated with nationalist policy which, in the context of the overall strategy against the Greek minority the continuing of the violation of human rights, and raises obstacles in this action as a result of the dead remain still unburied."
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 21, 2008 16:44:41 GMT -5
Why should occupiers be honored? I say no... send their bodies back to Athens... they are none of our soils business. Does greece have a memorial site for those Albanians who fought and died on the Ottoman side during the Greek war of independence? or the Bektashi cemeteries destroyed in Salonica? If a politician ever allows such a disgusting memorial to be built, I promise you me (and I will contact Shpata as well) will make straight for them and deal with them as necessary...
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Post by Kastorianos on Nov 21, 2008 17:18:34 GMT -5
Why not? An honour for your brothers. ;D
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Post by Kefalus on Nov 21, 2008 17:47:58 GMT -5
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 21, 2008 17:51:13 GMT -5
There is a French cometary to dead soldiers during WWI in Korca and I think i remember a German cometary. However it would be shameful if there was ever a cometary constructed for the two people who have been so detrimental to Alb history and people: Greeks and Serbs.
And I didnt ask for German occupiers... I said Albs. Where are those? Ofcourse there are none, why would there be?
RIP to the dead Germans.
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Post by Kastorianos on Nov 21, 2008 17:58:47 GMT -5
Haha ;D
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Post by leandros nikon on Nov 21, 2008 19:21:24 GMT -5
RIP to the balkan fighters who fought for the albanian indipendence of 1912 (1st balkan war)...
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 21, 2008 20:11:59 GMT -5
Yea, I guess the 10,000 plus slaughtered Albanian civilians killed by our "Serbian" liberators, the dozens of thousands of others who were displaced and shipped off to Turkey or elsewhere, the destruction of villages in south south by rebel Greek "liberators", the later occupation and destruction of soil etc. etc.
We are all very thankful of them.
Oh and not to mention the attempted division of the land between various troops.
Most Albanians never asked for independence from the Ottoman Empire. Independence was only an option when it was the only option. The vast mass of Islamic peasants and landholding beys preferred to stay within the Ottoman Empire rather than out.
What you guys fought was not a war over our liberation, it was simply your own expansionism...
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Post by leandros nikon on Nov 21, 2008 20:52:11 GMT -5
hmmmmm...i used to say a couple of years ago to several alboz that if there wasnt any balkan wars they would not become independent in 1912 and they used to laugh at me...they claimed that albo guerillas had already defeated otthomans before the beggining of 1st balkan war and so the greeks in Epirus were confronting alboz instead of turks...i suppose that some of your compatriots were too embarashed to accept the historic truth,meltdown...which is that the four balkan allies got rid of the turks,send them away from the balkan peninsula...and thus,they gave the opportunity to the alb people to gain autonomy after 5 long centuries...once again melt,you prove to be an honest man.And yes,we do know that alboz did not care much to be a sovereign state,no matter how annoying this can seem to modern albanian chauvinists.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 21, 2008 21:05:49 GMT -5
The primary concern of Albanian guerillas was not over independence, it was over autonomy. Which we succeed in achieving by force of arms in 1912. The result of which was the apparent weakness of the Ottoman Empire to the Christian Balkan nations. The right of autonomy was already a done deal in 1912, when Albanians took Monastir and threatened to march on Istanbul...
There were battles and there was a great amount of fighting going on, just not for independence but over different issues: such as the right to use a Latin alphabet, the right to unite the separate Albanian vilayets into one large ethnic one, that Albs would not have to serve military service anywhere outside of Albania and that there would restrictions on Anatolian presence in the land. Albanians envisioned an ethnic state within the Ottoman system.
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Post by leandros nikon on Nov 21, 2008 21:30:12 GMT -5
march on istanbul?oh,come on meltdown... ;D
weakness to the balkan nations?so,its us who should be greatful to the albanians?so,these guerillas had managed to defeat the otthomans?
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 21, 2008 21:41:36 GMT -5
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 21, 2008 22:09:00 GMT -5
here we go again, Karta i have said it before you are considered Greek you're just Albanian by blood ok? lolol and Toskali enough with this pro-Turkish crap, how could "most Albanians" not want independence from Ottomans when most of our folk songs are about fighting the Ottomans? ex. "Te rrapi ne mashkullore",(one of most famous Albanian folk songs about Cerciz Topulli and Hito the Lab killing the local pro-Ottoman Albanian Bimbashi) Harjedin Pasha(singing about not letting Dibra falling to the Turks), "Cili je ti more burre"(about Ismail Qemali) and i'm sure all songs from Malesia(Montenegro) are something against Turks in genearl...lol...
Albania has good relations with Turkey today, but let's not become more Catholic than the Pope, especially since the Catholic church doesn't exactly have the best reputation ;D (that's just a metaphor and not meant to offend any Catholics here, lol)
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 21, 2008 23:12:13 GMT -5
Cerciz's chief concern was autonomy and ethnic rights, not independence. He even accused the young turks of disloyalty to the greater Ottomanism when Albanians were accused of not being Ottoman enough. Much like all other Albanian figures, besides the Christians.
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Post by leandros nikon on Nov 22, 2008 7:34:38 GMT -5
so melt,in which extend were the albanians integrated into the otthoman mentality?were they otthomans indeed?And thus,an occupation force to the enslaved greeks etc. on behalf of the turks?
i wonder why some alboz get so excited when they r being called "turkoalbanians"...u were obviously having a much better treatment during the otthoman era.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2008 16:38:09 GMT -5
Btw, if Albanians wanted an independent state, we could have achieved it with ease. Considering that Albania was one of the primary recruitment areas for Rumelia, the Ottomans would have been entirely hampered from any kind of movement if all Albanians actually revolted. Not to mention that if an ethnic identity was developed in the 19th century, and Ali Pasha and the Bushati family had actually united... independence could have been won in a very short space of time.
We wanted to be in the Ottoman Empire...
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Post by Kastorianos on Nov 22, 2008 16:40:36 GMT -5
Dont say "we". If you say "we" you mean you muslim Albs. I dont think the christians wanted to live in a muslim empire. In contrast...look at Souli.
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 22, 2008 18:10:16 GMT -5
Dont say "we". If you say "we" you mean you muslim Albs. I dont think the christians wanted to live in a muslim empire. In contrast...look at Souli. actually some Muslim Albanians are the most anti-Turkish, taht's why when Cham immigrants go to Greece they say they are vorioipirotis The Albanians who did not want independence from the Ottomans probably had a Turkish father or something. They were the minority not majority, Toskaliku is jsut foaming at the mouth again.
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Post by proleteriat on Nov 22, 2008 18:12:07 GMT -5
Btw, if Albanians wanted an independent state, we could have achieved it with ease. Considering that Albania was one of the primary recruitment areas for Rumelia, the Ottomans would have been entirely hampered from any kind of movement if all Albanians actually revolted. Not to mention that if an ethnic identity was developed in the 19th century, and Ali Pasha and the Bushati family had actually united... independence could have been won in a very short space of time. We wanted to be in the Ottoman Empire... No, maybe you did. Ali Pashe Tepelena was killed by the Turks, enough said.
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 22, 2008 18:14:10 GMT -5
The League of Prizren showed very well what Albanians felt. If the educated couldnt be induced into revolting, do you think the mass of conservative Muslim peasants would? The only truly pro-independent were the Catholics and they could never induce the rest to. Sami Frasheri's manifesto specifically stated that autonomy was what he sought after, never full on independence. Hell a long while back a documentary was shown on Albanian television showing whether or not Ismail Qemali's declaration had not been a move supported under the Sultan and Ali Pasha Gucia specificaly called the Sultan "father"... I could go on... Like I said, the ultimate demands for Albanians were: - autonomy within the Ottoman empire under as an ethnic state where all four vilayets were united into one. - language and ethnic rights, such as the right to open schooling in Albanian. - Albanians would not serve anywhere outside of Albania. Meaning they were not to be stationed in Anatolia, as the Sultan wanted to do. - Non-Albanians, here specifically Anatolians, were not be allowed to enter Albania unless Albanians allow it.... Ali Pasha was betrayed by his sons and his ally, Omer Vrioni... who went on to become what? Greeks can answer this for us...
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