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Post by thracian08 on Oct 15, 2009 19:03:40 GMT -5
aha, but there is a reason in the Quran about the witness thing. Since women are more emotional then men - esp due to their monthly cycle, there is a belief that they may not be that reliable as men when it comes to witnesses. That is why it states that. Actually in the Koran, women and men are equal. Both have the same requirements to enter heaven. Even in the Adam and Eve story, God blames both, not Eve. Unlike the Bible.
Wabahism maybe based on it, but the followers do not follow Islamic concepts. For example, they desecrated the Prophets graves saying that it is idolitry to have them. They do a lot of non-Muslim stuff. If you read the Koran and understood it Toskali, you would already know the basic foundations.
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Post by thracian08 on Oct 15, 2009 19:07:33 GMT -5
And the scarf is not mentioned in the Koran. So it is not #1. The only thing mentioned is that women and men should dress modestly in the Koran. Most important for Muslims is not what you look like but how you act and your intentions matter the most.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 15, 2009 19:51:51 GMT -5
There is nothing non-Muslim about desecrating the prophet's grave. Actually, it is based off of Koranic/Abrahamic principals of the singularity of God. Everything else that promotes veneration besides purely God is not proper. It is perfectly within the confines of Islam. It is just an extreme interpretation of it, but it is still Islam. In fact, one could argue that the Wahhabi are actually destroying it to prevent the people from falling into any idolantry, like how it happens in the Bible. In the old testament the Israelities are in constant need of care since they have the tendency to fall into paganism on various occasions and must be set properly by a new prophet who destroys their false idols.
Doesn't matter. The Quran strictly mentions that women should not appear beautiful. Simple as that. It means control over women. Why should women not appear beautiful? Because in the Islamic world and in Islamic thought, women are weak in comparison to men and if they are not sexually controlled they will be seduced.
What about this:
"Abide still in your homes and make not a dazzling display like that of the former times of ignorance: and establish regular prayer, and give regular charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger."
So women should say at home? Why? Because the Quran, like most works of its time, deal with women like they deal with children. I say women should flaunt it and show their beauty, there is nothing wrong with beauty, either of their hair, their face or their body... yet the Quran believes that women need to be controlled in this regard.
Whatever argument you wish to make regarding the Kuran it works so long as you do not take modernization into account. Simple as that.
I read something rather interesting: "The Prophet said: Allah does not accept the prayer of a woman who has reached puberty unless she wears a veil." Sunnan Abu Dawud 2:641
Now do you see why Wahabism
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Post by vinjak on Oct 15, 2009 23:47:01 GMT -5
women are weak in comparison to men and if they are not sexually controlled they will be seduced.
I would have thought it was the other way men are weakened by beauty for example Adam and Eve, Samson and Delilah etc
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Post by adlun on Oct 16, 2009 7:41:39 GMT -5
Young French rapper Diam’s converts to Islam Diam's (real name : Mélanie Georgiades, born July 25, 1980 in Cyprus) is a French-language rap artist of French and Greek Cypriot origin. Her family moved to Essonne (near Paris) in 1984.In 1998, when she was just 18, Diam's signed a development deal with BMG Music Publishing France. With the publisher's help, Diam's worked on her craft and signed with Universal Records in 1999. She appeared in a song on DJ Mehdi's 2002 album "(The Story Of) Espion". 2003's Brut de Femme was her breakthrough, reaching gold and spawning the top 10 single "DJ." In concert at the 2004 Dour Festival in Belgium, people threw objects at Diam's when she began singing. In 2005, she cemented her importance as a songwriter with "Ma Philosophie" -- a huge number one hit for Pop Idol star Amel Bent. In 2005, she collaborated with Indonesian singer Anggun for her song "Juste Être Une Femme" (Just to be a Woman), which is featured on the French version of her current studio album Luminescence. Dans Ma Bulle (Inside my Bubble) was released in February 2006, debuting at number one on the French album chart selling 50,000 copies in its first week. Diam's first single from Dans Ma Bulle, La Boulette (The Moron) gained immense popularity and airtime. It stayed at number one on the French music charts for 6 consecutive weeks. Her second single Jeune Demoiselle debuted at #4. Ma France à moi and Confessions nocturnes with Vitaa also proved to popular. Dans Ma Bulle went on to be the biggest-selling French album in France in 2006 and reached diamond status (1,000,000 copies sold). Diam's won the award for Best French Act at the 2006 MTV Europe Music Awards. Diam's is known for her political activism in both her lyrics and her public persona; she is a fierce opponent not only of extreme-right politician Jean-Marie Le Pen and his daughter Marine Le Pen, but also of French President Nicolas Sarkozy. She is also known for her close relationship to French rapper Sinik; they have referred to one another as "brother and sister" and have collaborated extensively. She also has collaborated with Admiral T and has made an appearance with this reggae-dancehall singer. In 2009, she converted to islam and started wearing a headscarf, explaining to the French Press, “Medicine was not able to heal my soul, so I turned toward religion”. She married a muslim man called Aziz.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diam%27s
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 16, 2009 11:21:57 GMT -5
No, in the Med mindset and in Islamic mindset, women are weak. That is why they need to be kept indoors away from the sight of men. That is why they should not appear sexy and should wear covering.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 18, 2009 6:30:24 GMT -5
"Why Would a Greek Cypriot Convert to Islam?" ..maybe because he wants to convince Turks he is one of them so as to take his home back! lol lol
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Oct 19, 2009 1:33:44 GMT -5
"Why Would a Greek Cypriot Convert to Islam?" ..maybe because he wants to convince Turks he is one of them so as to take his home back! lol lol Or maybe he wants to get the properties of his neighbors during the next invasion. ;D
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Post by thracian08 on Oct 19, 2009 11:50:54 GMT -5
it is non-Islamic to desecrate a grave. There is nothing in the Koran to support that this is Islamic. Everyone knows that. They take the principles of only worshipping God to the extreme. Also, I have read the Koran and nothing mentions that women should not look beautiful. It only talks about dressing modestly for men and women. On the contrary, women have a right to do business/their own job. Prophet's wife was a businesswoman. So how would you be a businesswoman and work from home?
And actually, the reason for women's modesty in Islam is not because of her passion or whatever. It is actually to protect her from men who do not look at her like an object but look at her character.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 20, 2009 15:30:57 GMT -5
"Why Would a Greek Cypriot Convert to Islam?" ..maybe because he wants to convince Turks he is one of them so as to take his home back! lol lol Or maybe he wants to get the properties of his neighbors during the next invasion. ;D Yes! Thats true! Jannisary... you're getting better and better dude as the time passes by.. ;D ;D
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Post by Steven on Oct 23, 2009 16:31:51 GMT -5
Christians killed the most people throughout history. And they don't do anything themselves !! This may be true but violence is not consistent with what the Christian bible teaches. On the contrary it teaches to love your enemies and that violence is never justified. Read the Quran, it really is violent. There are verses saying "kill the infidel." What kind of religion says kill?
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Post by thracian08 on Oct 23, 2009 17:26:07 GMT -5
I have read the Koran and it does not say that. Whoever told you that is very incorrect. Westerners like to place the Koran out of context to make an enemy of Muslims. Muslims can only kill to defend themselves.
A lot of those against Islam like to take a verse out of context. THe verse you are referring to is in a time of war, when a muslim is being attacked. A muslim is told to defend him/herself, and even then it can only be the person who attacked them and not any innocent people standing by. A muslim isn't even supposed to hit a tree out of anger.
It may be that Allah will bring about love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity... Allah forbids you not respecting those who have not fought against you on account of your religion, and who have not driven you out from your homes, that you be kind to them and deal equitably with them; surely, Allah loves those who are equitable." - Holy Qur'an, 60:8-9
So the teachings of Islam are very clear. it teaches one to be at peace even with his enemy and to develope love instead of enimity. Furthermore, those who are at peace with the Muslims and do not seek to hurt them Allah has specifically said to live at peace with people. It is only when people hurt you again and again that you can retaliate and even then it is as last resort ACCORDING TO QURAN.
It also says in the Quran,
"the taking of one innocent life is like taking all of Mankind... and the saving of one life is like saving all of Mankind" - Holy Qur'an, 5:33.
and in both religions Christianity and Islam try to encourage conversion to their faith aka prosyletizing. Dacian, you really need to understand what you are reading before you post such blasphamous comments. It's no wonder Western Christians do not understand Muslims.
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Post by Steven on Oct 28, 2009 14:01:57 GMT -5
Thracian, the Quran says "fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?" (9:5). When Muslim armies conquered a new land they gave the inhabitants three choices: 1. To convert to Islam 2. To pay a tax 3. To be killed Consequently people of other religions who survived in Muslim lands where those who were wealthy enough to pay the tax. I know this first hand from a Egyptian Coptic Christian who says the only reason why his family survived is because they were wealthy enough to pay the jizya tax. This wasn't taught to me by any western person but by somebody with direct experience living as a dhimmi under Islam. Dacian, you really need to understand what you are reading before you post such blasphamous comments. I am not a Muslim so I am not bound to obey any of its laws such as not criticizing Islam.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 28, 2009 19:12:37 GMT -5
Wow, so, I guess... the Balkan Christians who "survived" the Ottoman Empire were all entirely rich and wealthy and there were none living in small impoverished communities? Im guessing they were a group of people entirely made up of upper-middle class families? Well, to the tell you the truth, coming from southern Albania, I can say that the state of the Christian and Muslim communities were essentially the same: both were impoverished. Same with the majority of cases all throughout the Ottoman territories: both the Muslims and the Christians were on the whole impoverished.
Oh okay, so they lived the entire course of Islamic domination of Egypt? They can give you a synchronic view of the events way back to the 6th century? Also, I guess they would tell you how slow the Islaminization of Egypt actually was that it took several centuries for the Muslims to achieve a noticeably dominant population? How reliant early Muslim rulers were on Christian extra taxes.
No ofcourse not. Your not a Muslim, your just another jackass who comes to this forum with your pseudo-knowledge of Islam based off of a number of biased articles youve encountered on generic Islamophobic websites and writers that please your own internal hatred and distaste for your religion.
Oh and just so you know, "knowing" a Coptic doesnt make you a professional on Islam and neither does being a Coptic. Especially considering they are the ones who likely have the most jaundiced historical perspective.
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Post by Steven on Oct 29, 2009 0:23:46 GMT -5
Toskali, I'm not igorant of Islam. I have studied comparative religion in university. I admit that Christians probably killed the most people in history but you'd have a hard time finding a religion other than Islam that specifically says to "kill the infidels."
Islam started as a militant religion, read the Quran, it's all about Mohammed's struggle to capture the Kaaba. How can something based in war be peaceful?
Early Christanity has a different history. There is a reason why there are so many early Christian martyrs- they don't fight back. It was only after St. Augustine developed a theology of a just war that the Catholic Church became militant.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Oct 29, 2009 0:37:36 GMT -5
Christianity also accepts the Old Testament, ever read some of the things present in those texts? If I remember correctly from my readings, Israelite kings are punished by god for not killing every single person. These same texts would later be used by crusaders and also have had heavy resonance in military aspects of biblical understandings. Old Testament readings continue to be recited in biblical practices.
Christians were militant in anyplace they could become a dominant portion of the population. There are constant cases in the ancient literature about continues mob fights between Christian and Pagan or Christian vs. Christian. Mentions of Coptic priests joining in mob riots against pagans in the cities. Fights between different Christians.
Ofcourse Islam is not peaceful in the sense of passive acceptance. Nevertheless, the cases in Islamic history where Christians were persecuted in such a way that they were forced to either convert or be killed are few and far between in a religion that has maintained consistent political domination for a millennium and more. many of these attacks have often occurred in response to things like the Crusades. For instance all the Christians in Antioch were slaughtered because they had originally supported Crusaders. Copts suffered because Frankish crusaders attacked their territory in the name of them. Venetians in Palestinian sided with the Mongols.
Initial Islamic conquest in territories like Egypt were actually a welcomed replacement since the Muslims offered denominational Christians more freedom, such as the Monophysites. Freedom that was non-existant among the Byzantines. Jews in the middle east welcomed Islamic conquest as well.
Conversions out of Christianity and into Islam did not occur for some time.
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Post by Steven on Oct 29, 2009 19:39:54 GMT -5
Christianity also accepts the Old Testament, ever read some of the things present in those texts? If I remember correctly from my readings, Israelite kings are punished by god for not killing every single person. These same texts would later be used by crusaders and also have had heavy resonance in military aspects of biblical understandings. Old Testament readings continue to be recited in biblical practices. Toskali, I don't think you have an accurate understanding of Christianity. The New Testament forbids violence in any form and it overrides what was written in the Old Testament. Jesus said : “You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39 “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Matthew 38-39 If violence was used by Crusaders that was because these people were not real Christians. Nowhere in the New Testament does it say to kill; it is forbidden, even in self-defense.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 30, 2009 8:19:13 GMT -5
Christianity also accepts the Old Testament, ever read some of the things present in those texts? If I remember correctly from my readings, Israelite kings are punished by god for not killing every single person. These same texts would later be used by crusaders and also have had heavy resonance in military aspects of biblical understandings. Old Testament readings continue to be recited in biblical practices. Go tell that to Catholics and your favourite Protestants... crusades were as catastrophic for the islamic world as they were for Byzantion... Christianity was their allothi to express their barbaric insticts...
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Oct 30, 2009 8:53:17 GMT -5
Or maybe he wants to get the properties of his neighbors during the next invasion. ;D Yes! Thats true! Jannisary... you're getting better and better dude as the time passes by.. ;D ;D It is my pleasure to come up some Ala Turca jokes that my Greek dudes would enjoy.
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Post by adlun on Nov 4, 2009 3:19:59 GMT -5
strange?! "violence" - why not atrocities or crimes
If somebody kill someone or attack somebody in a name of Islam, all Muslims are terrorists!!!!!
Why? How?
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