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Post by greekslav on Jan 10, 2008 12:06:50 GMT -5
We do not annoy we simply show up your fallacies in syllogistic reasoning... You are a moron and should be banned. You in almost every post use some kind of instigatory remark. YOU SHOULD BE BANNED. Where do you see an insult? I see one when you called AlbaneseHoney a moron. It's hilarious! If you want to take all posts that do not follow your line of thought as instigating, then you do not need to be here. Show a little intelligence and maturity by really engaging in some meaningful discussion.
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Post by slowdent on Jan 10, 2008 13:05:21 GMT -5
grksdiedforyou
you should follow the example of ephialtes. this is a good example of him engaging into meaningful discussion
"I have one Greek word for that: ìáëáêßåò
Verbal types, words and technical terms are three different things, in which you can not compare one to the other. All you need to do is define verbal types and you will see what I mean.
Again, μαλακίες!!!!"
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Post by greekslav on Jan 10, 2008 13:31:02 GMT -5
stratige Decent discussion of Stratigos ephialtes You are the on attacking once you have been proven wrong. Why should I go? I am still here waiting to debate. If you can. P.S. you behavior is so typical: when the going gets hard the instigator gets going. we have seen that so many times.... It's funny how many of you engage in trolling and hunting down those that are different ethnicities and/or have different opinions than yours. So while you can not engage in meaningful discussion and think it is okay, why do you slam non-comformists to your ideals for doing the same thing? Makes no sense! However, [glow=red,2,300]I LOVE YOU, MAN[/glow]
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Post by slowdent on Jan 10, 2008 13:59:08 GMT -5
I tried discussing the matter. i just showed you proof of my words. and your answer was "malakies".
is this the "meaningful discussion" you want to engage? prove me wrong in a civilised manner.......
uh? did u read this before you post it? look at the thread: Karta opened it, and you "begged to differ". it is ok to differ, but you have to make sense. you cannot write bs on this thread and expect no reaction. this time it was me, tommorow it will be smn else and I BET that you will react in the same way. Prove your sayings and then we are game.
wanna hug?
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 10, 2008 21:32:28 GMT -5
Anittas for stranger like you I have translate the greek article in romanian english Greek language is the richest language in the world with 5,000,000 million words.The Centre of Macedonian Study in the frame of celebrations of Three Hierarches organised ago few days lecture on the subject the importance of Greek language and alphabet for the maintenance of cultural Greek heritage. The dangers, that come from the European Union, and a lot of academicians observe that the Greek language is degraded considerably through various processes, as the utilisation of Latin characters in the electronic correspondences, the suppression of tones, the case of suppression of vowels and the more general use of it for the simplification of writing, were the main point of report in the lecture. According to Greek diaspora newspaper Morning of New York in her speech Mrs. Vagjia Karantinidi clinical Psychologist, child Psychology and international sciences of [Ancient] Greek Philosophy,ring the bell and saying characteristically that the Greek language is in danger.If the Greeks wants he elects again his racial virtues, he should it learns his past and his own Prehistory. The population of research and reflection has obligation to know and to rescue the cultural giant of his ancestors.”. The speaker presented ideas and inquiring elements with regard to the importance of Greek language and making analytic report in the creation of alphabet and the particular importance of each symbol of/letter, stressing that Greek language is the richest language in the world with 5,000,000 million words and 70.000.000 lexical types, as she was recorded in the book Guinness in 1990, while English has only 490.000 words.She stressed that when it is ignored the relation of alphabet in the language, is lost the real meaning and the basic energy of word, provided that the letters symbolize concrete attributes. “The Greek language is the base of all European languages with words that they possess optical-sound conceptual good. The Greek alphabet was carried to the Greater Greece of Italy and evolved into the Latin alphabet as was the case in the 9th century A.D. (in the Byzantine period ), with the conversion to Christianity of the Slavs by the Greek monks Cyrillus and Methodius and the Cyrillic Alphabet was created, based on the Greek one. The alphabet is still based today in the written forms of the Slavic languages. Greek Language that have passed into the European languages (English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, and so on). For practical reasons and in order to save time, I will refer mainly to the form Greek words have taken in English, with limited references to other languages. Ευρώπη (Europe). The name of Europe derives from Greek name of a mythological figure. The most likely etymology of the word is “the one who has «ευρείς ώπας», that is “big eyes”. From the name of Europe is derived the name of the European currency euro (from the first part of the name) and is printed on the paper euro in its Greek form ΕΥΡΩ. A field where Greek ideas passed with Greek words into European languages is that of politics, of instutions and ideology. Πολιτική (politics: The word originates in the Greek πολιτικός (political), πολιτική τέχνη (political art) or science was the technique and the knowledge of the πολίτης (citizen) in the Athenian Republic as to how he should carry out his duties and obligations; that is, to elect and be elected, to be conscriped, to become χορηγός (sponsor), so that the citizens could have the opportunity to attend theatrical performances without paying, mainly the ancient tragedies which had an educational character, πολιτική (politics)< πολιτικός (politician, political)< πολίτης (citizen)<πόλις (the city-state in ancient Greece). Δημοκρατία (democracy): From δήμος (people) and κράτος (power); it expressed the power, the people’s authority, of the many, of the citizens; in contrast with αριστοκρατία (the power of the elite) which was, in the final analysis, the power of the few. The Athenian δημοκρατία (democracy) became the model for the government of a city- state, since it was the system of government that secured and guaranteed the democratic rights of all citizens. Both αριστοκρατία and the one-man regime, μοναρχία (monarchy) –the hereditary authority the αρχή (authority of only one ruler– did not prevail in ancient Greece, in the same way as αναρχία (anarchy) was not acceptable. Equally undesirable were the antidemocratic political conditions of absolute power: δεσποτισμός (despotism) from δεσπότης (despot, the main, the absolute ruler), ηγεμονισμός (hegemony) from ηγεμών (absolute ruler) and τυραννία (tyranny) from τύραννος (absolute, authoritarian, ruler). The basic of democracy was διάλογος (dialogue) from the verb διαλέγομαι (discuss matters with others seeking the truth). From the same verb we get the διαλεκτική (dialectic) method of philosophy, the method of seeking truth through question and answer, through dialogue. Later, in mediaeval times, we had the creation of the word μονόλογος (μόνος + λόγος) "speaking alone as the only speaker") that from the beginning had pejorative sense. Conversing and talking correctly, objectively, convincingly and creatively, being a ρήτωρ (rhetor or orator) and knowing the ρητορική (rhetorics, the art of rhetoric) was an advantage as long as you didn’t, with your rhetoric, mislead the people into rash decisions, and you are not a δημαγωγός (demagogue˙ from δήμον + άγω, "to lead the people"). All these are, of course, subjects of political ιδεολογίας (ideology), another familiar word in political terminology, which derives from the very significant Greek word ιδέα (idea) and which has given to the European languages the words idea (English), idée (French), idea (Italian/Spanish), Idee (German) and so on. The original meaning of ιδέα is "what I see or conceive with my mind", vision as a source of knowledge. From the same Greek root we get two important words ιστορία (ίστωρ, story, history, from "the one who knows", initially "the one who sees with his eyes and knows", initially "the one who sees with his eyes and knows well" (see the English words history and story ―through Latin― the French histoire, the Italian istoria and the Spanish historia, "that appears without being real". Also είδωλο (English idol, French idole, Italian/Spanish idolo). The semantic areas of education and art have given another set of basic words: θέατρο (theatre), the space where we θεώμεθα (θέατρο < θεώμαι “see”) what is acted δράμα (δρω "act"), which may be moving such as τραγωδία (tragedy from τράγος a satyr in the form of a goat + ωδή "song") or satirical like κωμωδία (comedy) from κώμος "a merry group, a company of young people + ωδή (song). From the basic words τράγος (tragic) and κώμος (comic), in connection with τραγωδία and κωμωδία were also formed the words τραγικός (tragic) and κωμικός (comic). The concept of δημιουργώ (create) has given from the verb ποιώ (make, create) the words ποίημα (poem, "language creation"), ποίηση (poetry) and ποιητής (poet). [It should be noted that three basic Greek verbs meaning "make or do" have given a series of words to European languages: (i) δρω (perform, act) > δράμα (drama), δραματοποιώ (dramatize) δραματικός (dramatic) and δράσις (action), δραστικός (drastic); (ii) πράττω (do) > πράξις (praxis), πρακτικός (practical, practice), πράγμα (object), πραγματικός (pragmatic, pragmatism, pragmatist), and, more recently, the American chiropractic; (iii) ενεργώ (operate, activate), ενέργεια (energy), ενεργητικός (energetic), ενεργοποιώ (energize)]. Returning to the theatre, let us remember some theatrical terms which have led to the creation of a series of European words: σκηνή (English scene, French scène, Italian and Spanish scena), χαρακτήρ (character < χαράσσω, χαράζω "characteristic by which somebody/something can be recognized"), επεισόδιο (episode, "the dialogic part of the tragedy between two choruses), πρωταγωνιστής (protagonist "the main, the first character), ορχήστρα (orchestra, the original meaning being "the part of the theatre where people ορχούντο (danced). The Μούσες (Muses, the goddesses of the arts, have given the word μουσική (music, the musical art the original meaning being "the one referring to the Muses" and form of art protected by the Muses: music, painting, dance, poetry, prose, philosophy) and the word μουσείο (museum, "a space dedicated to the Muses, and, by extension, the arts they protected"). With music are connected other words which have found their way into European languages. Here are some: μελωδία (melody, < μέλος "song", original meaning: "articulation, harmonious articulation; αρμονία (harmony, from < αρμός, original meaning "good joining, impeccable linking); from the word αρμονία we get αρμόνιο (harmonium, the church organ). In French or Italian we have from αρμονία "philarmonique" and "filarmonico" meaning "the one who loves harmony"; in English we get philharmonic (φιλαρμονική the orchestra, the band). Here we have an example of another interesting process for the presence of Greek words in European languages. It is not a question of loans from ancient Greek words, but one of the creation of new words with Greek being the basis. From phil (φίλος "he who loves" as in philosophy, philology, philanthropy) and harmony, we get philharmonic. From phil and ατέλεια (without charge) we get philately and philatelic. We have also got symphony and symphonic from the Greek συμφωνία (harmony, harmonious, coexistence), ρυθμός (rhythm) from ρέω (original meaning "the sound from the tightening of the strings of a musical instrument"), μέτρο (metre from μέτρον the original meaning being "measuring rhythmical pieces in poetry, in metrical speech); συμμετρία (symmetry, from συν + μέτρον "the one with the correct proportions"). We should note here that the word αναλογία (analogy, namely "the equivalence of the characteristics of two objects" has given to English and other European languages, words like analogy, analogous, analogue, analogic and others. From the field of education, I would mention selectively, σχολή (school, original meaning "free time" which, in Ancient Athens was used, fortunately, for discussions leading to the acquisition of knowledge and the training of the intellect). From this word we get the Latin and Italian schola, the Spanish escuela, the English school, the French école, the German Schule and so on. We also have ακαδημία (academy, academic from < Ακαδημία / Ακαδήμεια Πλάτωνος "Plato's school in Colonus, in the sacred grove of Ακάδημος < εκάς + δήμος, "the distant, the borough which is away from the centre"). We also have γυμνάσιο (gymnasium from < γυμνάζομαι < γυμνός the original meaning being "a place where the young train without clothes on" and λύκειον (lyceum the gymnasium near the temple of Lykeios Apollo, the school where Socrates and mainly Aristotle taught. Talking of gymnasiums and gymnastics, let us not forget the words αθλητής (athlete / athletics, deriving from αθλούμαι (train) < άθλον (prize) with the original meaning of "compete with others for victory, distinction, the prize"). Let us also note that the highest distinction for an athlete was victory at the Ολυμπιακούς Αγώνες (the Olympic Games) a highly prestigious panhellenic competition held in ancient Olympia. I have so far referred to a small number of words, which are of great importance to the basic concepts of European civilization, which I have briefly commented on. To save time, I am now going to mention some other groups of basic words without making detailed comments. First, a few general words τάλαντο / ταλέντο (talent); αισθητική (aesthetics), μύθος (myth), φαντασία (fantasy, fantastic), μαγικός (magic), μυστήριο (mystery), ερωτικός (erotic), ενθουσιασμός (enthusiasm from ένθεος "the one who has God in him"), συμπόσιο (symposium συν + πίνω), ήρως (hero) and ηρωίνη (heroin "what makes you feel like a hero, to feel strength and euphoria), στρατηγός, στρατηγικός (strategy), τακτική (tactics), συμπάθεια (sympathy), απολογία (apology, apologize). From the field of τεχνολογίας (technology, original meaning "grammatical analysis of the words of a text"), τεχνικός (technical), μηχανή / μηχανικός (machine / mechanic), ενέργεια (energy), ηλεκτρικός / ηλεκτρονικός (electric, electronic), αυτο-αυτόματος (automatic), αυτοκίνητο (automobile), αυτόνομος (autonomous), αεροπλάνο (aeroplane < αήρ + πλανώμαι original meaning "soar, fly in the air"), ελικόπτερο (helicopter < έλιξ = propeller), τηλε-τηλέφωνο (telephone < τήλε + φωνή), τηλεσκόπιο (telescope > τήλε-σκοπώ), ελαστικός (elastic), πλαστικός (plastic), σχήμα (scheme) σχέδιο (English "sketch", Italian "schizzo"). From the field of language itself and its analysis: γραμματική grammar < γράμματα "letters", original meaning "study of the written word"), σύνταξη (syntax from συντάσσω "put together"), λεξικό (lexicon), ετυμολογία (etymology, from έτυμος "true", ancient Greek meaning "search for the true origin of words"), σημαντική, σημειωτική (semiotics < σημείο), φωνητική (phonetics), συλλαβή (syllable), φράση (phrase), κόμμα (comma, κόπτω "cut") παράγραφος (paragraph), αλφάβητο (alphabet), διάλεκτος (dialect). A field where a large number of Greek words has found its way into European languages is that of theology, due to the fact that the main holy texts are written in Greek. The following is only a small sample: Χρίστος (Christ, from < χρίω, original meaning "he who bears the unction of saviour". With comparatively few, Ι hope, examples, I have tried to show what the presence of the Geek language has been in the European civilization and European thought as it is expressed with concepts and words in European languages. I could list thousands of Greek words, which are already recorded in the works of linguistics, philologists and other scholars, words which can also be found in all the reliable dictionaries of individual European languages. However, the theme is not quantitative. It is qualitative. As it has become obvious, key concepts of the European civilization (in science in general and specific sciences, religion, letters, arts, technology, politics, institutions and so on) are expressed in Greek words and secondly, though, this was not my subject, with Latin ones. This is the case, as I have explained, because the texts and the language of the great Greek authors and thinkers of ancient and mediaeval times was Greek. Also, the texts of the Christian religion and tradition are written in Greek, the language which has passed through and left its mark on European thought and all the European languages. The language of population expresses his his communication and dialogic. It is unthinkable a language, that spoke above 5.000 years to be forgotten, and suffers war” stressed Mrs Karantinidi. In the frame of effort heals the vital hurt at the Greek culture that is expressed with written texts, the Centre of Macedonian Study you will extend his efforts with a line of lectures in academic centres of New York, aiming at the briefing of what teaches courses interwoven with the Greek culture, hoping they limit the misinformation.
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Post by greekslav on Jan 11, 2008 13:11:18 GMT -5
Who is Mrs. Vagjia Karantinidi?
Why can I not find a good reference for the "Morning of New York" diaspora newspaper?
This describes any language undergoing evolving due to outside sources. The suppression of tones and suppression of vowels is evident in all languages and is a basis of developing dialects. The use of latin letters to represent words in many languages is routine when communicating on computer, because the English language is the dominate language in the world, as well as computers. It is just the way it is and has no bearing on the degradation of any language.
Misleading point. While "Euro" does come from the word "Europe" (for obvious reasons that has nothing to do with Greek origins), the symbol for the Euro has both Greek and Latin inspirations. The euro symbol – € – was inspired by the Greek letter epsilon (Є). It also stands for the first letter of the word ‘Europe’ in the Latin alphabet. As to the printing of the word "Euro" in Greek on the Euro paper notes, the spelling is also in Latin (forgot that part).
What this fails to mention is that the Latin letters came from the Estrucan Alphabet, which came from the Greek alphabet, which came from the Phoenician alphabet. What it should say is that the Latin alphabet came from the Phoenicians by way of the Greeks. This does not take away the fact that it was the Greek alphabet (which came from the Phoenicians) which contributed to the development of the Latin.
Let's not forget that an unknown language was to have been spoken in prehistoric Greece before the settlement of Greek-speakers in the area of Greece. It is believed by some linguists that Greek took over a large number of words and proper names from such a language (its substrate), because a large proportion of the vocabulary of Greek does not have demonstrable Indo-European roots.
Therefore, it is rightly so that many English words were borrowed from Greek, but many of those words taken from Greek were borrowed from a Pre-Greek substrate.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 11, 2008 23:38:21 GMT -5
Cadmus, creating their own version of alphabets. [glow=brown,2,300]What the Greeks invented, was their own set of characters and their introduction to the vowels in the alphabets full of consonants.[/glow] The Phoenician and other Semitic languages didn't have vowels. This would mean the Greek alphabets by Cadmus is far older than they are actually are. For if Cadmus did exist, he would have lived in the Bronze Age, at least half-dozen generations before the war between Argos and Thebes, ie. Seven Against Thebes.
Anyway, the Greek alphabets had greatly influenced other writing systems in Europe. Because, the Roman or more precisely the Latin alphabets had borrowed either directly and indirectly the alphabets used by the Greeks. The Etruscan,alphabet is an offshoot of the Greek alphabet of Euboea. Coptic,Cyrillic, Glagolitic, Russian, Runic, and Roman scripts all trace their origins back to the Greek alphabet
The Greek language is widely regarded as the mother tongue of Western civilisation.
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 12, 2008 0:49:39 GMT -5
Hello Anittas Greek richest language in the world how are you? I was just hoping that an experienced member like you could stay in topic..... The topic is not about linguistic research, but about Greeks bragging about their language and putting down other nations. And in response... Where in this thread is another country "put down"?? It is the Greek language which is being attacked here.
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 12, 2008 0:52:49 GMT -5
Sorry, but I refuse to engage in serious debates in threads started by Karta. If the guy would at least learn a fraction of English words, out of the total words that the Greek language possesses over, this forum would feel blessed. You should feel blessed for knowing all those Greek words you unknowingly speak and know! The Greek language is what makes these discussions possible!
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 12, 2008 0:55:14 GMT -5
What does the glory of ancient Greece have to do with the Kurd-Armenian-Slavic-Albanian-Georgian-Syrian people who have maintained an old dialect of Greek and whom now refer to themselves as Greeks? Just curious. Are you insinuating that the Pontians are not the descendants of the Ancient Greeks who settled the South Black Sea in the 8th century B.C.E? You would be quite mistaken, especially considering that they speak an archaic form of Greek that was not taught to them by the Byzantine Greeks.
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 12, 2008 1:01:26 GMT -5
GS,
The major contribution of Greek on Latin was not only the Alphabet but the WORDS that the Latins borrowed from Greek! Stop confusing the symbols borrowed with the SPOKEN language!
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Post by greekslav on Jan 12, 2008 2:44:27 GMT -5
There is no confusion on my part, Nikilianos. But it seems you are. I speak of the alphabet and language separately. Just read my posts more in depth and you will see.
How? Languages developed separately from one another. While it is true that people speaking different language than Greek, but lived close to the Greeks, did get influenced by the Greek language and took on Greek words. But so did the Greeks with the other language. The exchange was two way, not just one way.
Those languages that developed far from the Greek developed without the Greek influence.
So how could all Western languages develop from the Greek?
I will agree that the Western alphabets all developed from the Phoenician, by way of the Estrucans, who developed it from the Greek. But not Western languages.
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Post by greekslav on Jan 12, 2008 2:52:45 GMT -5
Compare the Phoenician alphabet, which the Greek adopted, and compare them. You will see quite a resemblance. Note: The Phoenicians wrote from right to left, hence the letters are reversed compared to writing left to right.
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Post by greekslav on Jan 12, 2008 3:02:21 GMT -5
Cadmus, creating their own version of alphabets. [glow=brown,2,300]What the Greeks invented, was their own set of characters and their introduction to the vowels in the alphabets full of consonants.[/glow] The Phoenician and other Semitic languages didn't have vowels. This would mean the Greek alphabets by Cadmus is far older than they are actually are. For if Cadmus did exist, he would have lived in the Bronze Age, at least half-dozen generations before the war between Argos and Thebes, ie. Seven Against Thebes. Anyway, the Greek alphabets had greatly influenced other writing systems in Europe. Because, the Roman or more precisely the Latin alphabets had borrowed either directly and indirectly the alphabets used by the Greeks. The Etruscan,alphabet is an offshoot of the Greek alphabet of Euboea. Coptic,Cyrillic, Glagolitic, Russian, Runic, and Roman scripts all trace their origins back to the Greek alphabet The Greek language is widely regarded as the mother tongue of Western civilisation. Yes, we know that the alphabet given to the Greeks by the Phoenicians did not have vowels. But the Phoenicians gave us the majority of the letters used in our alphabet today. For all intents and purposes, the Greek letters still resemble the Phoenician, but reversed. The Phoenicians wrote right to left, while the Greeks left to right. Here is a little something about Kadmus: From Herodotus, The Histories
"...I have myself looked into the matter and find that they were really Phoenicians, descendants of those who came with Cadmus to what is now Boeotia where they were allotted the district of Tanagra to make their homes in. After the expulsion of the Cadmeans by the Argiva, the Gephyraei were expelled by the Boeotians and took refuge in Athens, where they were received into the community on certain stated terms, which excluded them from a few privileges not worth mentioning here. The Phoenicians who came with Cadmus - amongst whom were the Gephyraei - introduced into Greece, after their settlement in the country, a number of accomplishments, of which the most important was writing, an art till then, I think, unknown to the Greeks. At first they used the same characters as all the other Phoenicians, but as time went on, and they changed their language, they also changed the shape of their letters. At that period most of the Greeks in the neighbourhood were Ionians; they were taught these letters by the Phoenicians and adopted them, with a few alterations, for their own use, continuing to refer to them as the Phoenician characters - as was only right, as the Phoenicians had introduced them. The Ionians also call paper 'skins' - a survival from antiquity when paper was hard to get, and they did actually use goat and sheep skins to write on."
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Post by slowdent on Jan 12, 2008 3:54:46 GMT -5
Strathge
It would seem odd, when a group adopts an alphabet to do all the following:
Change the way it is written Add vowels Change the pronounciation of certain letters Above all change the name to ALPHABET Propagate it to neighbouring tribes.
Don’t you think?
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Post by greekslav on Jan 12, 2008 11:18:21 GMT -5
Irrelevant. The Phoenicians had no patent on their writing system. The fact will still remain that they are the ones that gave all of us the tool for writing, an alphabet.
Actually there are many who retains the shape of the original Phoenician alphabet. But by changing the starting point of writing (Left to right), most reversed the symbol of the letters. That is all. And many had retained the pronounciation of the letter given to it by the Phoenicians. The Hebrew language is one of them.
But since you asked, I can argue the same point. If indeed Greek was the mother language for all western languages, then why did the peoples of the West completely change the language and call it something else?
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 13, 2008 1:30:21 GMT -5
the “Phoenician Theory” about the origins of the Greek alphabet, was developed at a time when, “as the British scholar Dr. S.G. Remproke says, the Phoenicians were given an intermediary role that is not based on any historical information, in other words, a role of the transporter of wisdom from the chosen people of Israel to the uncivilized nations, and specifically the Greeks. This, of course, could be forgiven, since this was established around the end of the Medieval Ages, when religious fanaticism and backwardness had reached such a point that Iphigenia was presented as the daughter of Ieptha; Deukalion as Noah… Orpheus (Musaeus) as Moses and other similar distortions.” (Magazine Davlos, pp. 13741-13750, January 2000)
During the last three centuries BCE, the Egyptians and the Jews, primarily those living in Alexandria during the Hellenistic times, tried very hard (and at times succeeded) to assert their own ideas and cultural beliefs through the written works of the Alexandrian Greeks, who for millennia lived, worked and flourished in Egypt and continued to exert the Hellenic influence to other cultures through their language, philosophy, science, religion and the arts. Alexandria was the most cultural city of the Mediterranean, and “within a century after Alexandria was built [by Alexander the Great in 332 BCE]… it had become the center not only of Hellenism but [also of Judaism… ] the finest teachers, philosophers, and scientists flourishing within its walls”, writes Theodore Vrettos in his book “Alexandria, City of the Western Mind” In her book “Not Out of Africa” Dr. Marry Lefkowitz writes: “The Jews shared the Egyptians’ patronizing attitude towards the dominant Greek culture. Jewish historians were determined to show that although the Jewish people were now subject to Greeks, they not only understood Greek culture… but these writers sought to show that Greek religion and philosophy had been inspired by Hebrew ideas… But an even more definitive assertion of the derivative nature of Greek culture was made by an Alexandrian Jew called Aristobulus in the second century BCE. Aristobulus did not hesitate to invent information, or to report information invented by others… He said that Greek philosophers Pythagoras, Socrates and Plato knew and studied the books of Moses… Of course, no scholar today would take seriously that claim… [but] by the first century CE some people believed [it, and]… the Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria and the Jewish historian Josephus both speak of Moses influence on Plato… Later, church fathers like Clement of Alexandria (150-215 CE) and Eusebius (260-340 CE), took a decisively more hostile line… accusing the Greeks of theft and plagiarism… The determination of both Jews and Christians to assert the priority of Hebrew culture over the Greeks, helps to explain why the Egyptians where eager to point out… that, the famous Greeks were inspired by Egyptian learning. It was a way of asserting the importance of their culture, especially in a time when they had little or no political power… But the fate of Jewish ethnic historians like Aristobulus offer a warning to modern day advocates of Greek cultural dependency. How many people have ever heard of Aristobulus? And, more importantly, who believes him?” (pp 85-86) It is well documented, that scribes and book editors published “revised” ancient Greek writings and books in a form that, implicitly or explicitly, attempted to favor a specific ethnicity for nationalistic, religious or other subjective reasons. Professor Richard E. Rubenstein writes in his book “Aristotle’s Children” that the Catholic Church allowed universities to teach Aristotle’s philosophy and science, provided that his books “had been examined and purged of all suspicion of error.” (p. 173) In other words, Aristotle’s books would be analyzed, interpreted and “corrected” (read, “changed”) to fit the specific needs, teachings and dogmas of the Catholic Church! Even the New Testament, the most revered book for billions of Christians, was not immune to considerable changes by various scribes. Professor Bart D. Ehram in his book “Misquoting Jesus” writes that “… [in] thousands of places… the manuscripts of the New Testament came to be changed by scribes… [with] additions of sizable length… there are lots of significant changes (and lots more insignificant ones) in our surviving manuscripts of the New Testament” (pp. 68-69) What, then, could have prevented the alteration of Herodotus’ History, by racially or nationalistically motivated scribes and book copiers, in an effort to elevate ethnic pride, by asserting that a non-Greek culture had inspired and was responsible for the origins of the Greek alphabet? Unfortunately, we do not have the original Herodotus manuscript to compare and offer a definitive and conclusive proof to this theory, but why should we passively accept the negating rather than the assertive statement of his account about the Greek alphabet? After all, in the absence of conclusive evidence for a claim that the Greeks themselves had arrived from the East – the Greeks always regarded themselves as “indigenous” (“autochthones”) -- the Levantines and their advocates were determined to show that at the very least the Greek alphabet was an eastern import, and had Sinaitic-Phoenician-Semitic roots! The subsequent topics further examine this claim and present documented historical facts, as well as recent archeological findings that dispel a derivative theory, and raise claim to support the theory that the Greek alphabet (at some shape, form and factor) not only was invented and used by the Hellenes before Phoenician times, but eventually this alphabet made its way to the Levant, to be used first by the Philistines and subsequently by the Phoenicians and the Semitic peoples of that region. Herodotus actually makes it clear that the Greeks already had letters of their own at the time of the Phoenicians arrival to Greece and is careful to point-out that the Phoenicians introduced only a few letters (“eisegagon oliga”) that where hitherto unknown to the Greeks (“ouk eonta prin Ellesi”). Surely, the most important and by far the most critical statement that Herodotus makes in his passage is the one confirming that in time the Phoenicians “changed their language and the type (or shape) of their letters” (“ama ti foni metevallon kai ton rythmon ton grammaton”). In other words, the Phoenicians assimilated and eventually spoke Greek and wrote in Greek letters! However, what is considered the “bone of contention” in this entire debate is Herodotus’s subsequent paragraph. It reads in (translation) as follows: “At that period, most of the Greeks living around the [Aegean] region were Ionians, who were taught these letters by the Phoenicians, and adopted them with few alterations for their own use, and using them they were saying, that the right thing to do was to call them Phoenician, since the Phoenicians brought them to Greece.” This passage is indeed both paradoxical and suspicious, because if we accept the notion that the Ionian Greeks “adopted and used some” Phoenician letters (“metarythmisantes sfeon oliga ehreonto”), this would be a striking contradiction to the former paragraph’s strong and assertive statement that the Phoenicians where the adopters, not the Greeks The alleged Phoenician “invasion” Several ancient Greek writers credit various Hellenes as the inventors of the alphabet, i.e. Prometheus, Palamedes, Linus and others, with the exception of Herodotus, who in his History he mentions the following: “Then those Phoenicians who had come with Cadmus, of whom were the Gephyrians, had lived in many other places, and imported in this land different teachings to the Greeks, and in addition letters (“grammata”), which, in my opinion, where unknown to the Greeks, initially those [letters] that they and all Phoenicians used; however, as time went by they [Phoenicians] changed their language and the type [shape] of the letters.” (Book V, 58) This vexed passage is the heart of a long lasting and continuing debate regarding the origin of the Greek alphabet, since it has been taken at “gospel value” by many to mean that the Greeks “borrowed”, at least some, of their letters from the Phoenicians. However, an increasing number of scholars and researchers argue, with validity, that the Herodotus passage has been misunderstood and misinterpreted, if not taken out of context. Referring to the Greek original text (quoted in the parentheses below), let us analyze the passage to extract its meaning the way Herodotus, most likely, meant it to read. First, we notice that Herodotus makes a very important and significant disclaimer in this paragraph: he tells us that what he writes is a “personal opinion” (“os emoi dokeei”), not a widely accepted fact or a definitive statement. Prior to this, Herodotus also makes a more general disclaimer that “his opinion” was formed not by facts, research or scientific knowledge, but rather it was based on “taking information from others” (“anapynthanomenos”). “If we look closely in what Herodotus himself says [in his History],” writes Mary Lefkowitz in her book “Not Out Of Africa”, “he makes it clear that he is putting forward his own interpretations and conjectures about what he saw and was told by native informants.” (p. 62) This is not an uncommon practice for Herodotus. To wit, Professor Perez Zagorin in his book “Thucydides: An Introduction for the Common Reader” writes that Herodotus “in dealing with sources of information, his attitude was neither consistently critical nor generally credulous, but somewhere in between… To his readers he declares that it is his duty to report all that is said, but not obliged to believe it… His work is full of the most varied facts, speeches, stories and digressions for whose truth it is impossible to vouch… Very likely [Thucydides] placed Herodotus among the class of writers who, he said, take little trouble in the search for the truth and readily…accept whatever comes first hand.” (p.16) This is not to say that Herodotus is not a great historian, or that his writings are not important. On the contrary, his History is a remarkable book based on events that he encountered, but also on stories and folklore that he heard. Regarding his passage about the Greek alphabet he failed to establish a clear distinction between facts and generalizations and, in contrast to Thucydides, the historical evidence (“tekmerion”) in his narrative is missing, rendering his conjecture suspect. To be fair, despite his controversial account, Herodotus actually makes it clear that the Greeks already had letters of their own at the time of the Phoenicians arrival to Greece and is careful to point-out that the Phoenicians introduced only a few letters (“eisegagon oliga”) that where hitherto unknown to the Greeks (“ouk eonta prin Ellesi”). Surely, the most important and by far the most critical statement that Herodotus makes in his passage is the one confirming that in time the Phoenicians “changed their language and the type (or shape) of their letters” (“ama ti foni metevallon kai ton rythmon ton grammaton”). In other words, the Phoenicians assimilated and eventually spoke Greek and wrote in Greek letters! However, what is considered the “bone of contention” in this entire debate is Herodotus’s subsequent paragraph. It reads in (translation) as follows: “At that period, most of the Greeks living around the [Aegean] region were Ionians, who were taught these letters by the Phoenicians, and adopted them with few alterations for their own use, and using them they were saying, that the right thing to do was to call them Phoenician, since the Phoenicians brought them to Greece.” This passage is indeed both paradoxical and suspicious, because if we accept the notion that the Ionian Greeks “adopted and used some” Phoenician letters (“metarythmisantes sfeon oliga ehreonto”), this would be a striking contradiction to the former paragraph’s strong and assertive statement that the Phoenicians where the adopters, not the Greeks! Is Herodotus confused and uses “bifurcated logic” here, or is something else happening? Let’s examine the possibilities. As difficult as it is to translate a passage from ancient Greek without altering its meaning, keep in mind that the ancient Greek writings can (and will) take an entirely different meaning by repositioning a comma, or by observing the proper gender, or even by inserting a word that the author has omitted. Consider the following famous Delphic oracle, given by Pythia to an ancient Greek soldier leaving for war: “Thou shall go and thou shall return not thou shall die in war” (“Exeis afexeis ou en polemo thnexeis”). As an exercise to the reader, notice how the meaning of the sentence changes completely, first by placing the comma before the word “not” and then after it! Furthermore, consider the word “Egypt” (Aigyptos); its feminine form (e Aigyptos) refers to the country Egypt, but its male form (o Aigyptos) refers to the mythical hero Egyptus, a forefather of the Greeks, not connected with Egypt. Fascinating indeed, but after all, this is the beauty and power of the Greek language and also its mystique and challenge to the user, reader, as well as the translator! Hence, modern translators and interpreters, who do not have either the analytical skills or good command of the language, not only make erroneous translations and interpretations, but unfortunately, these errors perpetuate and eventually amplify the problem. With this in mind, let us reintroduce the later mentioned Herodotus paragraph, by inserting a key word (in brackets, bellow) that Herodotus may have omitted as redundant (“autonoete”): “At that period, most of the Greeks living around the region were Ionians, who were taught these [Greek] letters by the Phoenicians and adopted them…” The suggestion that Herodotus meant “Greek letters” is consistent with what he told us in his first passage, i.e. that the Phoenicians had adopted the Greek letters (and language) and abandoned their own. Furthermore, it is important to note that he mentions the Phoenicians as “importers” of these letters rather than “inventors”, while his subsequent statement that the Ionians called the letters Phoenician (“Phoenekeia keklesthai”) is consistent with the ancient Greeks’ tendency to attach exotic origins to home-grown products, even if that practice had an unintentional long-term negative impact on their creativity and intellectual capital. This practice continues even today, inasmuch we attach “origins” to certain common items, such as French fries, Danish rolls, Canadian bacon, Venetian blinds, etc, even though it is highly unlikable that these products where actually “invented” in the named localities. If this explanation is not sufficient to persuade the skeptics, advocates of the belief that the alphabet was indeed a Greek invention, have expressed the opinion that the second paragraph may have not been written by Herodotus altogether, but it may have been inserted at a later date by someone with the intention to reduce the importance of Herodotus original passage. Could this be so? Well, we know that through the ages, ancient Greek writings have been altered and edited for various reasons and some more significantly than others, by various scribes and copiers of the original texts. Herodotus History may have also been a victim of a later-day Hellenized zealot scribe, who in an attempt to minimize Hellenic cultural hegemony and inventiveness he targeted the crown jewel of all Greek accomplishments, their alphabet! Long before the excavation of Knossos in Crete by Sir Arthur Evans, scholars believed and taught that Greek writing began around the time of Homer, at 800 BCE. The excavating work of Sir Arthur Evans in Crete, unveiled the Minoan writing scripts, known today as Linear A and Linear B. Michael Ventris, an English architect, deciphered Linear B writing and proved, beyond any doubt, that the Minoans of the second millennium BCE were speaking and writing in Greek. The Aegean of that time was indeed Hellenic. In fact, as it turns out, the Linear scripts use many symbols that resemble letters of the Greek alphabet. Recent work that has been done on the decipherment of an even earlier Cretan script found on the Phaistos Disk, especially by Dr. Steven R. Fischer, proved that the disk writing is also Greek (contrary to hitherto various theories that the disk script was of Northern Semitic, Hittite, Egyptian, or other origins) thus extending the Hellenic connection of the Minoans into the third millennium BCE. Dr. Fischer in his book “Glyphbraker” presents a meticulous and scholarly account of his decipherment of the Phaistos Disk that was based on the glyph correspondences between the Phaistos Disk and symbols of Linears A and B. His work has been endorsed by “The National Geographic” and is by far the most credible and realistic decipherment of the Phaistos Disk to-date. In his book, Dr. Fischer concludes that “the Minoan language of ancient Crete is the oldest documented language not only of Europe but also of the entire Indo-European language family… it was a Hellenic tongue, sister to Mycenaean Greek [Minoan Greek]… the Phaistos Disk indicates a preference for the written word in ancient Crete (it also suggests widespread literacy)… [and] the Hellenes were the first in the Aegean, indeed in Europe, to use writing…” (pp. 119-120)
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 13, 2008 2:02:19 GMT -5
The Minoans spoke and wrote in Greek, at least 1300 years prior to the appearance of the Phoenicians! Some may argue that the Phaistos Disk is “written” in pictorial script (glyphs) and it is syllabic, not alphabetic. This is true. However, the relation of the Phaistos Disk to the syllabic Linear A and B scripts is stunningly similar, thus proving the continuity and evolution of these writing scripts. Furthermore, the similarity of the Minoan writing symbols to the Phoenician scripts (i.e. Proto-Sinaitic, ca. 1700 BCE; and Phoenician ca. 700 BCE), which are also syllabic and not alphabetic, suggest a relative connection that should not, and must not, be taken lightly or go unnoticed.
Hence, the question at hand is, did the birth and early evolution of the Greek alphabet begun in the East (Phoenicia) or the West (Crete)?
The ancient historian Diodorus of Sicily mentions in his writings that Dosiades, a writer of epigrams, told him that the letters were invented by the Cretans (“Dosiades de en Kriti phisin evrethinai auta [grammata].) (Diodorus, II 783.14)
Furthermore, according to the “On-Line Encyclopedia Britannica”, the late Sir Arthur Evans, the brilliant archaeologist and scholar who dedicated most of his life excavating, deciphering and documenting the advanced civilization of the Minoans, argued ingeniously that “the alphabet was taken over from Crete by the Cherethites (Kereti=Cretans) and Palestu (Philistines=Pelasgoi) who established for themselves settlements on the coast of Palestine. From them it passed to the Phoenicians, who were their neighbors, if not their kinsfolk.”
This is a statement and scientific observation of great importance, and has far reaching implications in the quest to identify not only the origins of the alphabet, but the origins of civilization in the Mediterranean.
Unfortunately, Evans’ theory of the origin of the alphabet laid dormant (and frankly, in my opinion, purposely ignored) until recent archaeological findings in Israel regarding the Philistines, a race that, until recently, we only knew from Old Testament references, have shed new light on the migrations, settlements and cultures of the people in the Mediterranean basin, and has stirred renewed interest in the relation between the Levantines (Middle Easterners) and the Minoan Greeks.
Will, finally, Evans be exonerated and his theories be proven right? Well, we are now almost certain that, despite previous theories that the Minoans migrated from the Levant, recent scientific and archeological findings are proving that it was the other way around!
As we understand and analyze these new findings, not through the prism of narrow nationalistic, ethnic or political interests, but in true and responsible scholarship, old misconceptions will tumble and the truth will prevail.
The Philistines: Savage warriors or peaceful innovators?
The Philistines was an immigrant culture and appears to settle in Palestine around 1200 BCE, establishing important cities like Ashrod, Ekron, Ashkelon, Gath and Gaza that constituted the Philistine Pentapolis (Five Cities).
The Philistines were known to the Egyptians as “Palestu” and also as the “Sea Peoples” and their migration to the Levant from their homeland might have been due to famine, outside invaders or devastating earthquakes and natural disasters.
Moshe and Trude Dothan, professors of Archeology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, have spent over 30 years excavating, analyzing, reconstructing and painstakingly recording the Philistine civilization, hence we now have a good, albeit still incomplete, understanding and appreciation of the contributions and the positive impact of their highly advanced culture in this area.
Historical and scientific evidence show unequivocally that the Philistines “were composed of Greek-speaking tribes” and recent archeological evidence point-out that they most certainly came from Crete (Caphtor). It is interesting to note that the biblical Cherethites were Cretans (Cherethites=Kereti=Cretans) and they became King David's personal and professional military force (1 Sam. 30:14).
The Cherethites are linked to the Philistines by Ezekiel, “I stretch out my hand against the Philistines, cut off the Cherethites, and destroy the rest of the seacoast” (Ez. 25:15-17). Zephaniah also mentions four of the five Philistine cities in his prophecies against Philistia, “For Gaza shall be deserted, and Ashkelon shall become a desolation; Ashrod’s people shall be driven out at noon, and Ekron shall be uprooted” (Zep. 2:4-7). Zephaniah further affirms that the Canaanites and Philistines were kinfolks from Crete: “Ah, inhabitants of the seacoast, you nation of the Cherethites! The word of the Lord is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines…” (Zephaniah 2:5-11)
The link and relation of the Philistines/Canaanites to Cretans is further strengthened by the fact that the Philistinean city of Gaza was also known as Minoa, the same name given to several trade stations that started from Crete. Joseph Yahuda, in his book “Hebrew is Greek”, associates the name “Philistines” with that of “Pelasgoi”, early inhabitants of Crete (Pelasgoi => Pelaskoi (g turns dialectally into k) => Pelastoi (k turns dialectally into t) => Palestoi (e and a interchange) => Palestu => Philistines.) (p. 3).
Although the Old Testament portrays the Philistines as “godless violent warriors, dull-witted and uncouth barbarians”, the Dothans, through their excavations and scholarly work, have revealed a culture and civilization just the opposite -- questioning whether the Biblical authors were vilifying their more cultured enemies, because of ethnic hostilities.
The archeological discoveries revealed that the Philistines were accomplished architects, sophisticated urban planners, highly artistic potters (using Mycenaean/Minoan decorative motifs), weavers, skilled iron-workers and advanced technologists. In short, the Philistines were a culture that profoundly affected and influenced other cultures around them. A civilized race, indeed, that used Aegean-style hearths in their buildings, practiced Aegean-cultic religion and cremated and buried their dead in Minoan/Mycenaean-style, rock-cut chamber tombs.
Gerhard Herm in his book “The Phoenicians” writes that “the Philistines had not only had close contact with the Achaeans (i.e. Hellenes) but in fact stemmed directly from them. Goliath, who challenged David wearing Mycenaean armour, could have been a descendant of Menelaus, Achilles, Odysseus… Thus, here in the Gaza strip the last act of a drama was played out which had begun in Crete…” (p. 56)
Until recently, scientists and scholars were unsure whether or not the early Philistines had a writing system. But, is it possible that an advanced culture like the Philistines, with established trade, religion and social structure could not write, while less advanced cultures around them allegedly did?
The Dothans in their book “People of the Sea: The Search for the Philistines” show a tablet that they excavated in Israel, dated around 1100 BCE, with early Philistine writing, that is related to the Minoan Linear scripts. Although not many examples of this writing have been found as yet to establish the definitive link and to aid the decipherment of this script, scholars are now almost certain that the Philistines used linear writing to record events.
In early 2007, in an article that appeared in “The Israel Exploration Journal”, distinguished Harvard professors Lawrence E. Stager and Frank Moore Cross commenting on several Philistine inscriptions found in the ancient city of Ashkelon in Israel, wrote that the inscriptions "reveal, for the first time, convincing evidence that the early Philistines of Ashkelon were able to read and write in a non-Semitic language, as yet undeciphered… perhaps it is not too bold to propose that the inscription is written in a form of Cypro-Minoan script utilized and modified by the Philistines — in short, that we are dealing with the Old Philistine script." Cross further states that the script had some characteristics of Linear A, the writing system used in the Aegean from 1650 B.C. to 1450 B.C. This undeciphered script was replaced by another, Linear B, which was identified with the Minoan civilization of Crete and was finally decoded in the mid-20th century.
Hence, these Cretan migrants brought with them not only the Minoan Greek language, but also the linear script, the early Hellenic syllabic alphabet that planted the seed for the evolution of a regional rooted alphabet.
To wit, excavations at Tel Miqne in Israel in 1996 unearthed a Philistine dedication inscription of the seventh century BCE, written in a script dubbed by scholars “Phoenician-Canaanite”, in the absence of a more precise alternative nomenclature.
This tablet of Ekron, as it is commonly known today, is written in none other than a “Philistine” (i.e. Cretan) script that most likely evolved from the Minoan linear scripts, and was eventually adopted by both the Canaanites and the Phoenicians “their neighbors [and] their kinfolk”, according to Evans.
Furthermore, Aaron Demsky in an article published in “Biblical Archeology” suggests that the inscription of the tablet of Ekron names one of the Philistine kings as “Akys” (Greek: Acheos = Hellene), and his patron deity as “Ptnyh” (Greek: Potnia = Divine Lady => Great Goddess of the Aegean.), further confirming the Hellenic origin and lineage of the Philistines, their language and their writing (pp. 53-58.)
Sr. Arthur Evans may have finally been proven right! The letters of the so-called “Phoenician” alphabet were first used by the Philistines and had Minoan Hellenic roots!
Further Evidence and Conclusion
I have been and continue to be intrigued by the many theories presented in Joseph Yahuda’s book “Hebrew is Greek” where, through extensive linguistic research, the author builds a strong case that the language of the ancient Hebrews, who were known as Khabiru and Hepiru respectively in the Syrian and Egyptian annals, “was continental Greek” and that “the Greek and Hebrew alphabets bear a striking resemblance to one another, in the order of letters, their names shape and pronunciation.” (p. 19)
Yahuda further states in his book that “it is Greek that anciently – long before the Trojan War – started altering into Hebrew, and not Hebrew into Greek.” (p. 633)
The same author convincingly asserts in his book that “when the Hellenic affinity of the Phoenicians had long been forgotten, it was assumed that the identity of the Greek with the Phoenician alphabet was simply a matter of borrowing.” (p. 8)
These are powerful statements, based on thirty years of painstaking and meticulous scholarly research, by Joseph Yahuda, the results of which were compiled in the above mentioned book, a monumental work of about 700 pages.
The results of this research may be viewed as controversial and thought-provoking, yet they are well documented, compelling and scholarly, hence they cannot be waived-off, dismissed or ignored. This book diverges from narrow nationalistic motives and through science it casts doubt to the hitherto widely accepted theory that the Hebrew alphabet and language - as well as the Phoenician - are of Semitic origin!
Nor we can ignore the fact that as far back as the third millennium BCE, the Middle East was colonized by Minoan Philistines, and that the Phoenicians were related to the Philistines, and they all spoke Greek dialects and wrote using Greek characters.
In fact, the ancient historian Cornelius Tacitus (56-117 CE), in his book “The Histories”, writes this: “Some say that the Jews were fugitives from the island of Crete… Evidence of this is sought in the name. There is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida; the neighboring tribe, the Ideaei, came to be called Judaei by a barbarous lengthening of the national name.” Could this obvious etymological similarity be a mere coincidence? Furthermore, could it go unnoticed?
I submit that as archeology unearths more evidence, old theories will be revised and the new findings will eventually reveal the facts and truth. I also submit that the early Hellenic influence goes beyond the Aegean and Mediterranean basins. As Joseph Yahuda writes in his book, “four thousand years ago the whole of the Middle East was overrun, colonized and controlled by Greeks and allied tribes.” (p. 7)
Consequently, the languages and the writing systems that people of these regions used were developed and originated in the Aegean basin and mainland Greece and made their way to the Levant (and not the other way around) through these settlers.
The Greek alphabet is a product of this human migration and cultural evolution and was developed, in full circle, among people that shared a common Hellenic lineage, heritage and culture. The Greek alphabet, indeed, has Hellenic roots!
The debate on this and several related issues may not stop, and it should not, albeit debates of this sort must be based on historical and scientific facts and, as Dr. Dianne Ravitch of NYU said, “history must be based on evidence, openly arrived at and openly argued, not myth, ideology or opinion.”
The web site “writingsystems.com” states that “although Greek has traditionally been considered to be the mother of alphabets, the first to represent vowels as well as consonants, scholars are now divided on whether Greek was in fact the ancestor of all others or whether some [letters] came from Phoenician in other ways.”
In addition, in the book “The World of the Bible” the author, Roberta Harris, writes that “to the Greeks also belongs the credit for the invention of the vowel system… when the Greeks founded colonies in Italy, the alphabet was taken up by the peoples there… and has come down to us via the Romans…”
This article is based on extensive (but, by no means exhaustive) research that the author has done on the subject, in an attempt to show that ancient, as well as recent evidence, point to a favorable conclusion that the alphabet is indeed a Hellenic invention, albeit its final form, as we know it today, is the result of refinement and iterations of Hellenic writing systems through millennia of usage in the Aegean basin and the Levant.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 13, 2008 3:03:29 GMT -5
Here is what I found re: Greek language and other similarities (or borrowings, or influences, or loans???) Who borrowed who? Similarities in Greek and Chinese Language By Theresa Mitsopoulou The word “hygea” – health, must be related to the Chinese word “yu” – which means to heal, to recover, to become well (as an adverb it means “the more…the more” since one recovers gradually and little by little). Today, the word--Albania--is referred to as "Alebaniya" in Chinese. This word is believed to be derived from the Latin word: "Aibainiya". (The "l" in Albania came about later in Greek and in Latin as these languages evolved). Poignantly, in modern Chinese, "bai" means "snow white". In the ancient Chinese language, "ai" means "snow white" without the "b"--not in reference to the young maiden and her seven dwarfs however! Rather, "snow white" refers to the dramatic descriptions of the snow white mountains of Albania which bring to mind the many horrid tragedies the Greek soldiers faced during World War II upon such mountains. The Chinese word, "bai", which means "snow white" offers another fascinating meaning which might sound rather farfetched. Nevertheless, the Chinese word for white wine (which is produced with sugar cane and maize, as is Greek ouzo) is "bai jiu". Many wines are referred to, in Chinese, as "san- bai" which means exactly: "white three-fold". Notably, these particular wines produce such heavy foam, one might venture to assert that the type of wine known for its heavy foam is champagne. "White three-fold" or "white three times" can also be linked to a particular French province; to explain, this province has such extensive vineyards for wine production, the province was named Champagne. The world-famous "foam" wine, so to speak, is Champagne or "san bai"--white three-fold! The Chinese word, "lun" means wheel. Similarly, in Latin, the word "luna" refers to the moon--an object similar in shape to the wheel. The word "luna" also means "talk". Interestingly, there is a Greek expression that goes as follows: trehei I glossa tis rodani. This means: "she speaks too much and too quickly, like a spinning wheel". However, this "wheel" refers to the loom where yarn is spun. Undoubtedly, this connection has considerable loopholes. The Chinese word, "gu" means a small amount. This word also refers to the thigh bone with its prior meaning being a "branch" or "part". The Chinese word "liao" means water. Thus, the term "guliao" means "a little water". Interestingly, one might be able to link this term with the following Greek expression: "mia goulia nero" which means exactly, "a sip of water". The similarity between the Chinese "guliao" and the Greek "goulia" is evident. In the word, guliao, the "gu" precedes the "liao". In the Greek word, goulia, the "gu" which denotes a small amount (in Greek--(o)ligos) comes after the "li". The word, "ban daor" means half-way and on two levels. Notably, the Greek word for "attic" is "patari-deroon". The similarity is evident. Most likely, the Maya did not know of the existence of the horse, but it is also possible that their name used to stand for the original common "cradle". The name for "chariot" is "a[ma]xa" in Greek. The word, "amaxa" must also be related to "ma" which means horse. The connection between the word, "kongbu" which in Chinese means "terror" and the word, "kouboura" which in Greek means "pistol and/or bad student" is a rather humorous one. Namely, those students who walked around with pistols attached to their belts had an easy life, so to speak, by never being pushed to study. The Chinese word (lao) tai-ye means an elderly gentleman or venerable leader. The Greek word, "tagos" means commander and political/religious leader. The connection between the two words is clear. Also, in ancient Greek, "tagi" means "line of battle", "tagma" means "brigade" and "tagouhos" means commander. The Greek word, "naziara" means "a woman with affected manners" even though dictionaries explain this word to mean more precisely, "a woman trying to attract the attention of the opposite sex". My Chinese teacher referred to a word that caught my attention while in class. The teacher referred to the word, "nan zhu le" which means a person who attempts to make excuses in order to not follow up on a dinner invitation or something of the like. Thus, "nan zhu le" refers to a difficult person, so to speak. I question if "naziara" is actually a woman who "stirs up trouble" or "problematizes" people and/or situations. Thus, "being difficult" was a method of stirring up the interests of others in the older Chinese and Greek civilizations. Today, the Chinese word, "yi" which comes from the compound word, "hou yi" means "descendent" and "son". The Greek word for son is "yios". The word, "wan pi(r)" means mischievious. The word, "wan" stands for foolish and bad while the word, "pi" stands for leather. In the renowned Shadow Theater, a [mischievious/ bad] vampire--which is an English and French word known in Chinese as "xixiegui"--was always dressed in leather, thus is forever associated with it. The meaning of the word "dian" is rule or law. In Greek, the word, Diana, means success: "ta ekane diana" is an expression which means exactly--he hit target. Undoubtedly, the Romans coined the huntress , Artemis, "Diana" because she rarely missed hitting a target with her famous bow and arrow. My latest discovery (1/2002) was the origin of the word, "Jew" or "Jewish”. I spent two years in Jerusalem with my brother while he was working there as a diplomat. This is how, from a young age, I became acquainted with the Israelis--their history, culture, and religion something that helped me later later in my research (e.g. Agamemnon's Mask and Panchen Lama, pg. 219, 251). After the diaspora, Jewish people had to continue to move from place to place and had no choice but to lead a nomadic lifestyle as they were constantly persecuted having supposedly killed Jesus Christ. The expression--the "wandering Jew" explains this fact. The Jews learned professions that they could easily practice within any country, especially medical professions. Instead of buying land, they invested all their money in gold, jewels, and valuables of every kind so that at any given moment, they could pack their valuables and depart with a bag in hand. Incidentally, a large amount of diamonds, rubies, pearls and gold was handed over to the Germans by the Jews in Thessaloniki. Many Jews became bankers, lending money with high interest, auctioneers, and jewelers which might explain the word, "Jew". "Jew" might mean someone who deals with precious stones. Finally, in Chinese, the word, "zhu" means jewel. The word, muchun, means late spring or the third month of the lunar year and this explains where the name of the periodical tropical wind comes from in Asia comes from. The word is believed to come from Arabic. The word in Chinese for "fox" is "huli". Another name for this animal is "laopo". The latter name comes from the Greek word "alopix" (the same consonants --l and --p testify to that). The Chinese word, lao, means old woman and po, means the first wife (of many wives presumably). In Greek, one can refer to an old woman as a fox alluding to her wisdom. The story of Alexander’s the Great horse, Bukefala, is well-known. The most salient trait of this horse is the fact that he fears his own shadow. In Chinese, "xia" means "to scare". (In ancient Chinese, "xia" most likely means shadow). Similarly, in Greek, the words "iskios" and "skiazomai" mean shadow and also the verb, to be afraid. The consonant, k, is added after the s--as in the English word “scare”. The word "pouggi" refers to a purse with money. Long ago, Greeks often hid money in bedspreads and under mattresses as a way of protecting their assets from thieves. Significantly, the word "pugai" in Chinese means bedspreads (pu=spread and gai=cover). The word, "yu" in Chinese describes someone foolish and crazy. The Greek word describing this same person is "agirtis" which essentially means vagabond. The Chinese word, Qi pai, means "wonderful". A person who feels proud and who behaves foolishly and in a snobbish manner can be described, in Greek, as "xipasmenos". In the Cretan dialect, "xipatera hromata" means "wonderful striking colors". There exists the "ka" prefix in the Greek language. A common word in Greek that refers to old, worn shoes must relate to the Chinese prefix, "char" which means "broken pieces". The prefix "bo", in Greek, means "rich". The word, bodosidia, and the proper name, Bodosakis refers to "gifts". In Greek, surnames are taken from nouns; for example, the Greek noun and surname "Tzitzilis" relates to the word, "zaili" which means reasonable. In the same way, the last name, "Tsalis" also brings to mind the word, "zaili". In addition, the last name, "Soulis" stems from the word "xiuli" which means repair. It is easy to see the correlation between the Greek word, "man" which means "wild" and the English words, "mania" and "maniac". The word, buren, means "unbearable" which comes from the Greek word, "bourini" which means both bad weather and anger. As I have stated before, Greek names like Thalia, Danaos, David and Anna--in terms of their spelling and meaning, were known in China. The Chinese are the first to be surprised at this fact and they believe that these particular names have been adjusted phonetically from the English language into the Chinese language. However, the syllables of various names have a meaning in Chinese which creates an issue. To exemplify, the name, David, can mean "great guardian and/or defender". In Chinese, the word for this meaning is "da wei". The " da" prefix in Chinese correlates with the "de" prefix in the English word, "defender". Thus, one is to assume that the name "David" means "defender"? The greatest Sinologue, the frenchman, Marcel Grant, has already noted that the Chinese believe that people's names gave them certain qualifications or traits. For example, if someone is given the name "groom" he will lead this kind of life even if he was born a prince. Names of flowers, animals, and birds will transfuse to the individual's grace, power or intelligence. For example, a mother might call her son with his official name or with a pet name like "Big Eagle". Such names like Black Bear and Winged Horse etc. are very common among Native Americans whose country of origin is undoubtedly China. Similar names were used in the primitive society of Zulu--Shaka was called, "Big Elephant". "Omiros", in Greek, means "hostage". It is believed that Homer was given his name because he and his father were taken as hostages. In Chinese, though, "hema" is called the hippopotamus (river horse)--the biggest amphibious land animal next to the elephant, known for its abundant and tasteful meat, which was common in the rivers of China. The word, "a ba" means "father" and "abbott". The word, "a ge" means "big brother" in Turkish. In all likelihood, the pronunciation of the word "ge" is similar to the pronunciation of the word "ye" which are two words that derive from the words "gia" and yia". This relates to the first part of the fabulous king of Mycenae (Aga-memnon). It might sound odd but the name of Aga Han--a religious leader of the Israelites of Persia and India is actually related to the name of Agamemnon. Observe how both names begin with the "Aga" prefix. Biblical names are also related to the aforementioned name, for example, Abraham, Aaron, and also Ave, and the word, Amen. The "Mo" prefix of Mohammed and the word "Moslem" (muslim) comes from the Chinese "mu" meaning "solemn, reverent". The breakdown of the word "Muhanmode" is as follows: mu=solemn, han=rare, mo=silent, concerned, de=reverent which in turn refers to a respected, older person. Next to the important names of Agamemnon and Homer is the name "Souploulou" which refers to a "girl of the street", so to speak, which is in Chinese--shunlu (lu). The Chinese word, "xie" means thank you as well as "whither" (as do flowers). The American government official, Eugene Atkinson, visited Japan in 1996. Bowing, as the Japanese do, he thanks and greets people giving the impression of a whithered flower through his physical gestures. I would like to signal at this juncture that besides "p" the letter "t" is also related to the Chinese. The ideogram is written "ding" (great confusion is caused because the Chinese -d is often rendered in Greece with -t like di-telos) and means "nail" because it has a horizontal line on top like a head. In ancient Chinese, there was a numerical meaning refered to as the "fourth one of the Heavenly Stems). Today, we live in a world in which the notion of a "show" plays a major part (TV show, show business etc.) Originally, however, this word came from the Chinese word "zhou" which means circle and/or week--namely, something that turns around like the roulette in the casino. "Show" was called the triumphant circle of victors, athletes, and charioteers in the Roman stadium and arenas. Related to the word "zhou" are the words "tzogos, tzogadoros (play cards). Finally, the lucky games have the element of divination. "Ma gua" is the long uniform of Kongfu and the word "gua" refers to the English "gown". In Chinese, the word "shi" means city. Notice the relation between "ci" and "shi". The dictionary reveals that the word, "Ayto", means "goal". This word was initially discovered in the 16th century and means "the final line of a foot race" and "the point from where the ball is shot". Most likely, the word "goal" relates to the Chinese words, "gou" and "le" which both mean "end" thus referring to the end of a football game for example. "Ren lei" is a Chinese word which means "human being, mankind". "Lei ren" (where the "lei" notably precedes the "ren") means "anthropoid, chimpanzee, gangster, and monkey". This might correlate with the Greek word "lera" which means 1) dirt and 2) an individual of ill-breeding. Thus, the Greek word "lera" and the Chinese word "lei ren " might possibly be correlated. Interestingly, monkeys were very common in China and many myths contain monkeys as central heroes--for example, one myth describes a monkey being smart enough to reach the sky and create great havoc in the divine palace of where the gods dwell. However, monkeys also symbolize ugliness and are considered unreliable swindlers by nature. “La” means to play a stringed musical instrument and “la la dui” is a group of children (originally girls like the “majorettes”) that cheer, dance, sing and applaud. In Greek schools the first grade children dance and applaud around their doll singing “la la la”, while in French dictionaries there is an expression “tra la la” as a refrain of a song. “La” is also one of the musical notes, to which the Chinese, today, refer only as numbers, e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 instead of “do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si, and I took then the liberty to think that their names were possibly of Chinese origin. After an examination besides “la” also “do” had a meaning in Chinese (dong=the sound of a drum and “dong bu la” is the name, today, of a stringed instrument), while “mi” means “decadent music” like “fa” and “si” is the first part of the word “trumpeter” and “morning herald” (sihaoyuan and sichen). A discovery hard to believe is the meaningof the English preposition “in”, called in Chinese today, “jin” (verd and adverb) meaning “in, inside”, please come in =qing jin. It is used very much in soccer and basket games: this ball went in, that one didn’t=zhe qiu jin le, na qiu bu jin. The letter “j” is not rendered in English but the relationship with “I” is clear in the Greek and English proper name John. The J. Ayto dictionary of Word Origins (Arcade Publishing, N.Y.) relates the word “young” to Welsh, Irish, Sanskrit, Latin, English, Lithuanian, Russian, Bulgarian, German, Dutch, Swedish and Danish. It seems that despite the difference in pronunciation, the Chinese word is “you” – young. “Za” – is the second syllable of “zizanion” which in Greek means “weed” that grows in wheat and rice plantations and that in Greece and China the farmers have to do away with. It also applies to a naughty child “zizanion”. A word of the every day vocabulary is “tour” (tourism), whose origin is the Chinese word “tou(r)” = head. An example where the “h” has replaced the “y” is the word “humor” meaning, “deep, distant, silent like the Nether world”. The Chinese children in school learn that the word “humor” is of English origin but its ending “r” (also in other English words, e.g. armor, honor, and in Greek “patir”, “air”, is typical Chinese (shihour, weir) and behind the “h” is a hidden consonant “y”. The ending “r” could alone substantiate the Chinese origin of “humor”. According to the Ayto Dictionary the word “humor” has to do with the body fluids and in fact the word “humid” has both consonants of the word “humor”. “Humor” comes from the Greek word “Hymos” which in English means “juice”. “Babeizi” means “eight life times” (it indicates a long period of time). The word is found together with lao=old (laobabeizi) meaning then “oldfashioned, outdated”, because old people have rusty ideas. The Greek word “babesis-dolios, katergaris” is the Chinese “babeizi” seen that an old man has a lot of knowledge and experience and can always find his way out like Ulysses (the word is explained in the dictionaries as of Albanian origin-pabese). My mind did dare also to match the Chinese word “bang” – club, cudgel, the English word “bang” – clap, hit, explode (big bang) and the Greek “bam” – clap, but also “excellent”. Today in Chinese, “tai bang” means “excellent, something that attracts attention” and the Greek word “bam” has the same meaning (a well known Greek song says: tonight you are “bam” – i.e. tonight you look gorgeous, you are beautifully dressed. Of course, the original meaning of “bam” is noise. In the telephone directory of Athens there is only one family name “Meggousoglou” and many similar ones, e.g. Meggos, Meggoulas, Meggidis, Meggisides. Meggousoglou Anastasios happens to be a friend and he had once told me that his family, originally from Caesarea in Asea Minor, came to Greece in 1922 together with many other refugees, when Greece lost the war against Turkey. Once more, by accident like so many other times in the past and when trying to investigate another word in the dictionary, my eye fell on Menggu-Mongolia, Mengguzu-Mongolian nationality and mengguzuren=Mongolian (Mongol). E and O take very often the place of one another (like in Greek “lego”-“logos” and the same way the S the place of Z (like in German and Dutch in the beginning of words e.g. sun-Zonne) and so the S instead of Z of Meggous-oglou-Mengguzu is not a problem and the name means “Mongolian, from Mongolia” (in Greek Moggolos). “Huaqiao” call the Chinese the overseas Chinese. “Hua” which means excellent in Chinese, is another name for China and “qiao” is explained as “tall” (qiao mu=tree, tall piece of wood) and as “residing abroad” and this last meaning, it seems that it is related to “tall”. The Chinese will have now to forgive me because I will speak in their place (like many times before) about something that they should have thought themselves. The name “huaqiao” was given to the overseas Chinese because they were tall (in comparison with the people of mainland China) due to different climatic conditions and especially to different and better food. Also the word “qiao-tall” meant “residing abroad”. New Words Meggousoglou (Mongolian Menggu(ren) from Mongolia Agamemnon Aga (A ge) big brother Alvania Aibaniya (Alebaniya) white like snow David da wei big fighter Soules (surname) xui li repair Tsales zai li reasonable, right Ayertes yu foolish, crazy Goulia gu liao little Katsaria chaor torn pieces Koumboura kongbu terror Maniakos man wild Bourini bur en unbearable Xypasmenos qi pai wonderful Patari ban daor two level Sampania (krase) san bai snow white Skiazomae xia become scared Cyklamenon xian ke lai visitor from heaven Mangoura magan stick Tjogos zhou yi lucky game Harti katong cartoon (card) Sourloulou shunlu street girl Lera lei ren monkey La,la,la la la dui cheering children’s squad Tagos lao tai ye very old person Zizanion za weed Bam bam clap, noise, excellent Babeses babeizi tricky, crafty English Words Bill bi (money) Boss boshi Goal gou (le) Chicken ji Scare xia In jin Biaozhi=symbol biaozhi Card katong (cartoon) Show zhou Gown gua (ma gua) City shi Mohammed muhanmode=venerable Monsoon muchun=tropical periodical wind Tour tou(r) = head Young you=young Humor you mo=deep and silent Cyclamen xian ke lai=visitor from heaven Bang=clap,explosion bang=club, cudgel
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 13, 2008 3:44:23 GMT -5
In her book “Not Out of Africa” Dr. Marry Lefkowitz writes: “The Jews shared the Egyptians’ patronizing attitude towards the dominant Greek culture. Jewish historians were determined to show that although the Jewish people were now subject to Greeks, they not only understood Greek culture… but these writers sought to show that Greek religion and philosophy had been inspired by Hebrew ideas…But an even more definitive assertion of the derivative nature of Greek culture was made by an Alexandrian Jew called Aristobulus in the second century BCE. Not only was the old Testament translated into Greek, but the New Testament was actually written in Greek. St. Paul saw a vision, in which a "man of Macedonia" spoke to him - of course in Greek - (Acts 16:9) and it was in Macedonia that the Apostle began his missionary work in Europe. Paul and Silas met Greek men and women in Thessalonika and Beroea who were converted into Christianity (Acts 17:4,12), and thanks to the Greek Macedonians Christianity was transmitted all over the world in the Greek language. Cyril and Methodius, the two Greek brothers from Thessaloniki, now known as the "Apostles to the Slavs", are the protagonists of the Slavs' Christianisation in the 9th century, an event which came to be the most important historical and cultural incident for Europe and the world by and large. "Rightly, therefore, Saints Cyril and Methodius were at an early stage, recognized by the family of Slav peoples, as the fathers of both Christianity and their culture" (see Document No 18 from Epistola Enciclica of Pope Giovanni Paolo II.) www.hri.org/Martis/contents/main6.htmlHebrew is Greek is the title of the book that almost disappeared from the face of the earth after its publication in 1982. In it, the author, Joseph Yahuda, lawyer, linguist, and researcher, convincingly demonstrates that the Hebrew language is, in Yahuda's own words, nothing more than "Greek wearing a mask." His unbiased search for the truth qualifies Mr. Yahuda to be considered a Hellene himself, as this designation is, according to Isocrates' definition, more a quality of character and mentality than it is of blood. By the way loved your post Karta
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