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Post by ilirdardani on Mar 14, 2008 23:40:37 GMT -5
I have seen Albanians,especially in kosovo praying in the middle of the street.... I also know there are places in Kosovo that look like eastern Turkey... Now I understand some Christian Albs get offended at the term.... I agree with you that it is offensive.... but to the mulsim albs in was never really offensive 100 years ago..in fact some of them thought of it as a compliment.... it just it the last 30 years... and the ongoing self realization that has been sweeping parts north of Greece.. some people are proud to be called Albanians ,Bosnians ect..instead of being tied in to the Turks... lol, you've never been in Kosovo, I lived there and I never saw an Albanian pray in the street. What a lie. haha We don't take religion as seriously as you Greeks do, and kill for religion. Our religion is Albanianism. Donnie ,your type have had "good' relations with Turks ever since Scandeberg died..basically you sold him out and stabbed him in the back...and you're proud of it.... and have that 'matter of fact' attitude about the whole thing..to us it reeks putrid meat... just laying out the facts we Greeks believe in, weather or not you give a chit or not.... we don't either. Ever since Gjergj Kastrioti died? Did you know that Albanian land (albania and kosovo) had the least investments in the whole Ottoman Empire? Now do you know why? Here is the answer, because for all of the 500 years of occupation, we fought against their oppression and the whole area was looked by the Ottomans as a military zone, so all they did was fight there. While you (the greeks) and the Serbians were enjoying the ties with the Ottomans, marrying with them, and enjoying killing Albanians. Do you know who really stabbed Gjergj Kastrioti on the back? The Christian Europe together with all other Balkan nations who didn't give crap about the fight and didn't help fight the Ottomans. (until 1900s, when Ottoman empire was already weak) *Gotta give credit to Hungary here as well as some Italians, who helped You guys have had success over the last couple hundred years, lying to the whole world about us Albanians, but finally things are changing and Illyria is getting back to its roots, while Serbia and Greece will only get smaller, just like they were 2000 years ago, when only Illyrians ruled the Balkans.
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Post by Kassandros on Mar 15, 2008 3:53:17 GMT -5
Also Teuta, I forgot to mention how strong that cultural connection is between Muslim Albanians and Turks. For example look at the exact previous post of Atlantis. His post, his reasonings, his "evidence".... generally express that backward Turkish mentality and low IQ level. Turks are into most peoples minds something like savvages and illeterate specie of humans. If take that under consideration... the only ones in Europe who follow their practices and their way of thinking.... are the Albanians... and some poor Fyromians. Of course Donnie and her poor way of thinking... describes that as "alliance" and that we, the Greeks, are jealous of it. Now tell me... how can I explain to her poor mind that if Greece ever was part of that alliance... and if Greeks ever had to use in their dialogues or their discussion the examples Muslim Albanians and Turks use..... I had to move as much away from Greece as I could.. ? Teuta.... it needs time to get rid of that Ottoman heritage you carry. I believe in the next 40-50 years things will change. The only thing that it will help you is that you have common borders with Greece, you have many immigrants in Greece that some day may go back with new and fresh ideas.. and that "alliance" and Ottomanism may fade. That is your hope.... and that is our future; to suffer all this Albanian ideas like Alexander was Albanian, Atlantis is Albanian, Greeks are from Sahara and stuff like that for the next 40-50 years... Unfortunately... instead of pooling us ahead with quality discussions... we pull back from our neighbors disscussions and mentality. Thats the misery belonging in Balkans. C'est la vie..
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Post by bordura on Mar 15, 2008 7:06:22 GMT -5
Well guys it’s obvious that both sides are missing on the topic the others side perspective and experience. I can't talk about Greek experience because I never lived in Greece (well I was there through Gramoz mountain when student trying to work in summer months, but got caught as I was waiting the bus to Jannina so all in all it was only 12 hours on Greek land), but I can give you my experience on Albania relating the Albanian-Turk connection. To my generation and to my parent’s generation (they are born after the independence in 1912) Turkey never existed as a element of life or culture. It was a far land somewhat not a threat, but definitely not a country on the close friends list! In personal level and in society at large to call someone Turk was derogatory for us (with inclination of being backward). No sympathy for anything Turkish and definitely we would have been very surprised of the word turkoalvane. I first heard of it in USA from Greeks in NY. I asked and they were little shy to explain till I insisted. They were polite (they thought so), trying to say: it is not for Albanians like you!! You are different! I was baffled as I do not see other Albanians different from me. I'm not naive and I understand that they meant good for my person when differentiating me from "other Albanians". My point is that Albania has been for 96 years independent. Greeks of this generation and at list of the last 100 years know Albania as a country allied with; Yugoslavia 1920's (King Zog I’st come to power through Serbia’s support), Italy 1930's (when Zog turned down Serbia and aligned with Victor Emmanuelle), Yugoslavia again (1945-1949 Hoxha-Tito honeymoon), USSR (1949-1960's Stalin/Khrushchev), China (1967 -1978 Chairman Mao's hug) SOLITUDE (1978-19990), and strong Pro Western alignment (1990 - 2008). None of us or our fathers, none of you or your fathers has any firsthand experience, fact or basis in personal life regarding the so called turko-albanian thing. As I mentioned before, if only you guys lived inside Albania would realize how alien sound to us because in last 100 years Turkey was and is not influential or a factors in any Albanians personal life or that of Albanian State as a matter. It is obvious that the animosity between Greeks and Turks is what fuels that. For religion, being a central part of Greek independence and a strong element of everyday’s conscience the term turko-alvane never died. It is transmitted through generations as an axiom. It doesn’t need proof or facts to be verified or updated. It will stay for Greeks alive as long as Greek-Turk conflict will be hot. As Hoxha created a clime of alertness between us Albanians that the NATO and Warsaw Pact countries would attack us at any given moment. He was able to fabricate an imaginary threat that in reality didn't exist and injected it for 40 years in the entire generations. Only for us to see in the 1990’s that no one really cared to invade Albania. I also cannot speak for Albanians in Kosovo and their emotional or cultural relation to Turkey, but they are out of equation in the Greek creation of the term turko-alvane. Greeks never had any contact or experience with Kosovars not only last 96 years but even before that. So it is hard for the label to have been generated from the Kosovar attitude even if hypothetically Kosovars let say are Turkey lovers. Serbs based on their claims that Kosovars populated Kosova deporting Serbs with Turkeys help should had used the same label, but they didn't. Considering the factor of the affinity they have with Greeks this sounds even more strange if they went through the same hardship under the Turkoalvane saga. Transferring the term from turkoalvane to Serbian language and mentality wouldn’t had been difficult linguistically and emotionally. They would easy have labeled us turkoalbanac. And even more strange is they do not use it keeping in mind Albanians and Serb have been to war with each other in last 100 years and Albanians and Greeks not! Today’s relations of Albania and Turkey are far from the level of relations between Albania and Greece. Albania has in many cases put down in favor of Greece many biddings or deals that Turkish corporations wished for. Greek banks were given space to start and grow in Albania. And you know very well that if government wanted Turkish banks to penetrate versus Greek that would had been very easy to do. In communications industry Greek enterprises have almost monopoly in Albania. Turkish operators were put down for 15 years repeatedly. They go the first license in 2007. And the market is already shared now. Almost all road building contracts were given to Greek companies in first 15 years after 1990. Greek and Italian capital is by far the largest that has penetrated Albanian economy. In Albania people crave west, want west, they have dreamed west and finally they are trying to get integrated with west in every aspect. Mentioning Turkey as a symmetrical psychological or cultural element to an Albanian it is just alien. Now if Greek experience of the last 100 years with Albanians is still colored with Turkish colors for them that is definitely a Greek issue not Albanian one. I hope all above helped my Greek friends to shed some light of what Turkey is for Albanians of last 100 years. As far as the fartss that we guys from both sides blow when Greece looses to Turkey in football or vice versa, when some other guys play imaginary war games of tanks and fighters and battle ships and stuff like that...oh well you know and we know that is Balkan jealousy mixed with childish temptation to show muscles and feel better in the “make believe world”. Kanaris I perceive you as a very cool dude and no doubt if we meet in real life we easy might had become friends. I don't think Kosovars pray in the street as some lunatics, that when time comes they throw a rug on the sidewalk, turn their face toward Mecca and their asss toward the sun. I've been there once in Prishtina and beside the standard look of a rundown post communist image nothing in life and street tells you this is a Muslim country. Yes you can see mosks, but one can see churches also. From visual point of view one cannot tell. Even less you can tell it is a Muslim country by looking at people. Western clothes, western/balkan type of entertainment, clubs, bars, restaurants. Alcohol is everywhere you go. Laic life predominates. You do not see Kosovars in a demonstration holding any Muslim flag or waving any Muslim slogan or shouting Allah Ekber! Can't say that for Serb people though. Almost on every demonstration I’ve seen of them someone is holding a patriarch’s picture or some orthodox saints frame!!! Talking religious fanatic for sure Albanians are not the ones to be accused. That said saying we can’t compare Albanians of all religions even with Greeks. Greeks I see never forget to make the cross when passing by the church and good for them. Albanians do not display the same religious level of practice or devotion. If they do it (I doubt it) then they are looked as doing something bad. Why is that? Is it only because they have different religion of the other guy? I'm not judging or badmouthing Greeks or Serbs in their religious devotion and involvement, I’m just contrasting because that’s what I think the term turkoalvane encompasses in the Greek mentality. It has more to do with Albanians perceived as Muslim=Turk that really being allied with Turkey as “brother in arms”. If they were “brother in arms” to some point in history. Didn’t that happened with other nations too? Why not label them? As we know on the Muslim ocean Turkey it is not as hard core as other some dark Muslim countries. Think of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan… Man, if in last 100 years no one Greek has witnessed or experienced the “turkoalvane yoke” in person then what keep fuels it for you to keep up with it. I hope you sincerely ask that question to yourself. Legends, myths, politics, stuck mentality to never personally experienced eras of history? If turkoalvanes existed for Greeks last time 100 years ago do u feel comfortable calling me as such. If not, who you think it is fit for the label today? Where he lives? What he is doing? How many are they? Are they in existence at all? If not, why you still use it? In the last 100 years have been 2 World Wars, Balkan Wars, East and West, countries created and evaporated and even though Greece and Albania didn't fight each other in any of them, even though Albania wasn’t allied with Turkey, from some dark times of obscure scenes this label still flourishes as a bitter fruit in a green house. Break that green house that harbors’ it! It won’t survive the sun of reality if all of us want to see it.
Hope everyone has a nice Sunday and happy B-day to all March babies in this forum
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Post by atlantis on Mar 15, 2008 7:44:33 GMT -5
Also Teuta, I forgot to mention how strong that cultural connection is between Muslim Albanians and Turks. For example look at the exact previous post of Atlantis. His post, his reasonings, his "evidence".... generally express that backward Turkish mentality and low IQ level. Turks are into most peoples minds something like savvages and illeterate specie of humans. If take that under consideration... the only ones in Europe who follow their practices and their way of thinking.... are the Albanians... and some poor Fyromians. Of course Donnie and her poor way of thinking... describes that as "alliance" and that we, the Greeks, are jealous of it. Now tell me... how can I explain to her poor mind that if Greece ever was part of that alliance... and if Greeks ever had to use in their dialogues or their discussion the examples Muslim Albanians and Turks use..... I had to move as much away from Greece as I could.. ? Teuta.... it needs time to get rid of that Ottoman heritage you carry. I believe in the next 40-50 years things will change. The only thing that it will help you is that you have common borders with Greece, you have many immigrants in Greece that some day may go back with new and fresh ideas.. and that "alliance" and Ottomanism may fade. That is your hope.... and that is our future; to suffer all this Albanian ideas like Alexander was Albanian, Atlantis is Albanian, Greeks are from Sahara and stuff like that for the next 40-50 years... Unfortunately... instead of pooling us ahead with quality discussions... we pull back from our neighbors disscussions and mentality. Thats the misery belonging in Balkans. C'est la vie.. ONE MORE TIME ......for the X and Y people...... During the history, Albania, is one of few nations in Europe, not capable making propaganda, that's because it's been always invaded and hasn't had the means to. This is valid even for nowadays. We don't call ourselves Moslems , we call our religion Albanianism, and we stress that. Religiousness in Albania is not low because of Hoxha only. We have been all the time like this. Even in old time the polytheist religion was nature enclined. On the other hand people like serbs and greeks are very fanatic and believe in mystic things. This is the truth. Where originally was spoken the new greek language. Was it created by orthodox church, making "catharthis"(clean up) to the old one, in XI century somewhere in Byzantium? Some sources say so. On the other hand Albanian language is the strongest proof as etruschian-pelasghium origin. Our epic History is based on a strong rezistance against the Otomans, not only by the Albanians Lions Fighter against them, but with brave woman, Nora of Kelmendi (North) and Argjiro of Gjirokastra (Soth). It’s completely understandable, new comers in Balkan are claming and need to prove ....things that nobody van believe ..... L'avita avanti.....only in albanian way
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Post by greek1234 on Mar 15, 2008 8:09:02 GMT -5
Its always the no bodies who try to steal history... Stay clear of Greek and Italian History you nationalistic moron... You cant even spell the names properly...
By the way what is 'Albanism'? Blind Nationalism?
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Post by speedy on Mar 15, 2008 8:15:13 GMT -5
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Post by atlantis on Mar 15, 2008 11:07:21 GMT -5
Its always the no bodies who try to steal history... Stay clear of Greek and Italian History you nationalistic moron... You cant even spell the names properly... By the way what is 'Albanism'? Blind Nationalism? news.sawf.org/Lifestyle/47870.aspx no answer..... I’m staying strict to my own... Not more than most of the greeks in this forum.... At the time you can react... I don’t fill bad about my spelling.....my important language is Albanlogy ....makes me to fill great and antic origin...but when you have no arguments what can I expect...Sorryyyyyy 'Albanism' is a great spiritual satisfy.
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Post by greek1234 on Mar 15, 2008 11:14:01 GMT -5
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Post by atlantis on Mar 15, 2008 11:20:37 GMT -5
.........your regular tendency during the history.......
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Post by greek1234 on Mar 15, 2008 11:25:38 GMT -5
You are making no sense....... You are give me a link that has nothing to do with anything we are talking about....
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 15, 2008 14:02:51 GMT -5
Atlantis.... that info is wrong... and stop posting it here cause I will come to Toronto and shove it up your a$$.
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Post by atlantis on Mar 15, 2008 14:18:57 GMT -5
Atlantis.... that info is wrong... and stop posting it here cause I will come to Toronto and shove it up your a$$. I''ll wait for you in the center of Danforth.......... Ok Ill go like that ............ Modern Greek = 30% former Arvanites + 40% Egyptian and 30% of mixed Slavs, Turks, Romans, and God knows what else! ;D
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Post by mike67 on Mar 15, 2008 14:54:22 GMT -5
Some more facts, From "History of Albania", A. Puto, S. Pollo Illyria until the sixth century In the first centuries AD the Illyrian towns had experienced considerable economic growth, based on the development of commerce and crafts. That, and the vast network of roads, the most notable being Via Egnatia, contributed to the expansion of the commerce between towns and regions; slaves, animal and agriculture products, pottery, iron and silver work were among products traded. Among products intended for outside markets, we should mention the cheese made by Docleats and the Dalmatians, the gold jewelry made by Dardanians and the clothes made by the Liburnians. In the towns, as well as objects of general consumption, art objects were equally in demand. Farming implements were improving allowing intensive agriculture. In the old cities, Durrachium, Apollonia, Buthront, Scodra, Amantia, Phoinike, Bylis the commerce had gained new dynamics even by the roman conquests in the East and Africa, and those cities enjoyed a respectable international reputation. In Durrachium, one of the largest cities of the empire, the old amphitheater was enlarged, that by its dimensions and the technique of the construction made it one of the most famous of the ancient world. The local aristocracy, having acquired an enormous richness, lived in houses with interior courtyards with gardens decorated by sculptures. The easier communication also helped in bridging the gap of tribal differences, thus molding together many characteristics of the same ethnicity. Despite the major attempts of Rome to colonize the country and to spread the roman culture, the majority of the population in the inland areas was almost shielded from romanization. In the coastal cities themselves, although many colonists were settled there, the majority of the population remained Illyrian, as was noted by Hieronymus, in AD 420. During the early centuries AD, a whole new string of cities were founded in the inland, the biggest of whom being Scampin (Elbasan), Clodiana (Peqin), Adrianopole (near Gjirokaster). Parallel with the roman art, the Illyrian art continued to develop with its distinct features, as have been proved by archealogic escavations. The Illyrians preserved their names of places as well as their costumes, the people in many sculptures being represented by their local costumes. Many of these costumes were inherited into traditional Albanian ones, the most visible ones being the white wool skullcap (qeleshe) and the pointed leather boots, with the point of the toe drawn upwards and a fuzzy pom-pom fastened to the top (opinga). Historical descripitons of Illyrians in Roman times make reference to them and the cap is still worn in Albania in some rural areas. In religious matters, too, the Romans met with resistance. If they gave Latin names to Illyrian divinities, they did not succeed in modifying their iconographic representation, nor in depriving them of their ancient attributes. In the same time Oriental cults (persian, etc) had appeared, and in the coastal cities Christianity started to spread too. New elements of Roman civilization adopted by the Illyrians - especially objects of common use like tools and ornaments - eventually took on new features during the early Middle Ages, as they become integrated with traditional elements of the indigenous Illyrian civilization. Another aspect to be noted is the Illyrian contribution to the Roman Civilization and Society. Roman writers mention a number of Illyrian artists, sculptors, architects, and philosophers working in Rome, most of who being taken as captives. Illyrian schools also hosted many Romans that latter became important figures of Roman history. Julius Caesar sent his nephew to study in Apollonia, whose school of philosophy was celebrated in antiquity. Also, by the third century the conflict between the Senate and the army and repeated raids by Germanic tribes, gave way to the process of 'provincialization' of the Empire. Highlander Illyrians became an important asset to fulfill an urgent need for strong solders and commanders, and raised to become leaders of the army and Emperors. Gaius Decius, Claudius II "Gothicus", Aurelian, Dioclecian, Constantine the Great, Julian, Claudius Probus and Justinian I were all Illyrians and form what many historians call as "the Illyrian dynasty". Illyria in the sixth century At the beginning of the sixth century AD the country of Illyria, including the regions that had belonged to the Western Empire until 476, was entirely under the authority of the Eastern Empire. From an administrative point of view, the country was divided into eleven provinces, as opposed to twenty-five which Byzantium now had in the Balkans. We can find the list, with its principal towns, in Hierocle's Synkedemos, drawn up in the sixth century in the reign of Justinian. Three of these provinces, Dalmatia, Savia and the Mediterrean Noric, formed the Diocese of Western Illiricum, while lower Pannonia, first Moesia, Mediterrean Dacia, second Macedonia, and the forth southern provinces covered the present area of the Albanians, that is to say, Dardania, Prevalitania, New Epirus, Old Epirus with their respective metropolises, Scupi, Scodra, Durrachium, Nicopoli. The country was fairly heavy populated - there is an estimate that about four million people were living in the provinces, out of the seven million that were to be found throughout the Balkan peninsula. They still were slaves and colonists, but the majority was peasants and free craftsman. Despite the crisis in slave society, most of the cities, were still rich ones; the lands were well cultivated and merchants traveled the roads to their profit. This situation gave the Empire and the local aristocracy, the opportunity of having monumental buildings constructed and reconstructed. At the beginning of the sixth century AD, the Emperor Anastasius undertook to construct at Durrachium, his birthtown, a ring of fortresses with triple ramparts, with an exterior wall 7 kilometers long and a central wall so thick that if one can believe the Byzantine writer in the twelfth century, Ann Comnenus, four horsemen could travel abreast along the top of it. Remains of some remarkable pieces of work still survive: to mention a few, the paleochristian baptistery at Buthront, the basilica with fifteen hemicycles in the village of Lin and the majestic colonnades in the amphitheater discovered at Durrachium. But these were the final decades of an old era. On the northern bank of Danube, new troops of the barbarians were massing, who aimed to pillage the riches of the Balkans and Constatinople, the capital of the Empire. To check these invasions, Justinian had a large number of castles build along the boundaries hundreds of citadels in the various provinces. His biographer, Procope of Ceasarea, has left us in his book, De Aedificiis, the list of 167 fortresses constructed or reconstructed in the four southern Illyrian provinces. In Dardania alone, Procope counted 72, one of which, called Justiniana Prima, was build at Tauresian, Justinian's birthplace. These numerous works did not however saved the Balkans from the barbarian hurricane that ravaged it with a burst of violence during and after the reign of Justinian. Just how weak the Byzantine Empire was and how it collapsed so ungloriously, is still a theme of controversy among the historians. But the primary causes must be sought in the internal diseases that were gnawing away at the very foundations of the Byzantine society. The barbarian invasions For the Illyria, the long reign of Justinian (AD 527-65) marked a period of internal trouble and incessant external attacks, the prelude to her ruin. The flood of barbarian invasion began against Illyria in 529 with the arrival of the Antes, then about 540 came the Huns, the Goths and the Slavs. Justinian tried to dam the barbarian invasions, but without any great success. During the course of the second half of the sixth century AD, the political situation in the Balkans become even worse, following the appearance of the Avars, who crossed the Danube in 568, and inflicted a serious defeat in the Byzantine army. If at first the barbarians did not settle in the Illyrian provinces, during the war of 579-82, which brought again the Byzantines against the Avars, a new trend appeared, with consequences which were to prove even more serious for the peninsula in general and for the Illyrians in particular. In 580 the Byzantine armies had engaged against the Avars' multitude of Slavs, whose numbers according to Menander, a contemporary, must have reached some 100,000 men when burst on to the peninsula. As John of Ephesus was to write four years latter, they "ravaged, burned, pillaged and conquered the country, and finally settled there themselves, as if in their own country, by killing or expelling the natives with vicious hostility". Northern Illyria suffered a severe blow. Byzantium was again put to test, and engaged in the same time against the Perses in the east in 582 was forced to conclude a costly peace. The flood of barbarian invasions left terrifying devastation in their wake in the Illyrian countryside. The inhabitants had to endure dreadful suffering and extreme hardship. "I believe", wrote Procope of Caesarea, recalling the province of Illyricum in his Historia Arcana, "that we must estimate at more than 200,000 the number of people who were massacred or taken into captivity, in which of these invasions, leaving these provinces looking like the desert of Schythia." That was only the beginning of Slav migrations into Illyrian territory and the whole of the Balkan peninsula, for during the last quarter of the century new masses of the Slavs settled within the boundaries of the Empire. Without any possibility of offering an effectual resistance, the Illyrians moved to a large number of coastal citadels, the Dalmatian islands and the high mountains. The weakening of the Eastern Empire under the troubled reign of the basileus Phocas (AD 602-10) opened even wider the gates of Illyria to the Slav invasion, for by this time, the Slavs have reached the Dalmatian coast. The Emperor Heraclius (610-40), who was engaged for twenty years in a difficult war against the Perses, was not in the position to be interested in the Balkans. According to the Miracula Sancti Demetrii, written during these decades, entire provinces of Illyria were horribly ravaged. In 617, according to the Miracula, "a new swarm of lowbred Slavs settled further down, and from there took incursions in most of Prevalitania, Dardania, New and Old Epirus and Macedonia, and making the majority of towns and provinces inhabitable". The torment continued until the ninth century when the Byzantine, pressed by the italian policy of Charlemagne and the Arab appearance in the West, took control once again of the western Balkans. During their absence, substantial changes had occurred. What were the results? First, from the end of the sixth century, the Eastern Empire lost its control of the western provinces of the Balkan peninsula. The Slav avalanche flung the imperial provincial administration and the regular ecclesiastical institutions out of these regions, while the Byzantine military garrisons had to withdraw to Thrace. In addition, the social instability spurred endless revolts of the slaves, and the country was torn apart by Slav devastations. These events and their historical implications, were paid for dearly. Massacres, epidemics and kidnappings had reduced and weakened the Illyrian population. The northern provinces, in particular, had suffered the loss of many lives and much more taking refuge in the southern provinces, or in the high mountains[/font]. A number of inhabitants in the cities had abandoned their homes to seek refuge in other areas and most of the cities were destroyed. Some of them were razed to the ground. Libraries, works of art, theatres, aqueducts and every thing that remained from the old civilization were burned down, destroyed or pillaged. According to an account from the Abbreviator of Strabo: "Nothing was speared. The Slavs after killing whoever had remained in the city, took whatever they could, and destroyed every thing else. From the large library of Dioclea not even a book remained, after everything was burned down, not even one!" Illyrian lands were on a whole a lamentable sight. The towns that had flourished until the sixth century, were decimated and covered with debris.
Ethnic repercussions were even more accentuated than the devastation of the economy. By the tenth century the barbarian hurricane had passed, but many of the former cities did not reappear. Some of them, notably Apollonia, Buthront, Phoinike, Albanopolis, Antigonea, Epidaurus, Salona, Dioclea, Bylis disappeared for good. Since the first half of the sixth century, the refugees from Epidaurus founded Ragusa (today Dubrovnik that had a large number of Albanians up to the late 15th century), the emigrants from Salona found shelter in Spoleto, the inhabitants of Dioclea went down to Antivar, those from Apollonia moved to Pojani and Vlora, those from Albanopolis went up to Croya (today Kruja). The others, following the example of Durrachium, which still remained the principal city in the country, shut themselves into their citadels (Scodra, Scupi, Oricum, Amantia, Lissus, Drivasti, Ulcini). From other provinces as the Miracula testifies, hundreds of thousands of refugees, who had escaped from the teeth of death, left their fertile lands in Moesia, Panonnia, Mediterranian Dacia and Naissus to settle in Dardania and the mountainous regions of Prevalitania. Some of them took refuge to Thessalonca and perhaps even to Constantinople. Others went as far as the Peloponnese. Beside the scattered indigenous population, northern and eastern Illyria became populated with Slavs. Except for the southern regions of Prevalitania, Dardania, Old Epirus, New Epirus and some strips in the Dalmatian coast, in all the other areas of what once was Illyria, the indigenous population by the tenth century formed but little islands in the Slav ocean, despite of the persistence of a few of the former Illyrian people in the ninth century in Bosnia, Herzegovina, Macedonia and Dalmatia. On the other hand, the southern provinces, become extremely overpopulated, by the flows of refugees coming from the north. These, and the shattered economy, brought sickness and despair. There, boxed in the corner, the former Illyrians that now gradually started to be called Albanians by foreigners and Arberesh by themselves, struggeled for survival and managed to keep the Slavs out of those areas. What the historical documentation (that is markedly lacking during these centuries) can not tell, the oral art describes in full colors. Namely, the Kreshniks Epos, whose creation many scholars place exactly between the sixth and tenth century. Some others believe that this epos, many elements of which can be traced back since before Illyro-Roman wars, was in existence and probably dying during the sixth century, and during the times of turmoil gained new dynamism and a new role to record the earthquakes the Illyrian society was going through. Only if you read a portion of this epos, you have right there the whole picture: bloodshed, fires, mythological animals eating whole cities in a heartbeat, displaced persons with utters of despair, and titanic struggles to keep the shkjas (Slavs) out of the Albanian villages. Most of the action happens exactly in the border between Albanian population and the new Slav ones: Kotor, Nish etc.
At the end of the tenth century, the Balkans' ethnic map had changed dramatically from that of the early centuries AD. Dacians had vanished since the roman times; the once territory of Dacia was populated with descendants of the roman soldiers or colonists and the remaining Dacians were fully assimilated into the roman culture, country also to be called after the name of the new colonists roman-Romania. Thracians disappeared for good. And so did Macedonians. In Greece the population was also going through dramatic changes. During the Slav migrations, Slav tribes were settled in Thessaly and the Peloponese. What had remained from the Hellenism were the language used by the Byzantine administration and church and the populations of Asia Minor and the islands. In Illyria, the biggest part of the country, was taken from Illyrians by the Slavs, and the former were either eliminated or pushed southwards. No historical source ever mentioned the settlement of any Slav group in Southern Illyria, which was overpopulated as it was. During these centuries a new group of people started to appear in the Balkans: the Vlachs. Their existence has been recorded in the Balkans at least since the eleventh century. According to some scholars they started their nomad life spreading all over the Balkans originating from Wallachia (Rumania). Another interesting theory exist that they were nothing but the former Illyrian and Thracian populations that were assimilated into the Roman culture that during the earth-shattering events found security in the nomad life in the mountains.
If Illyrians, could've had a reason for optimism, or if they would've seen behind the clouds of the time, they would've seen that they were the only group that managed to preserve the continuity of life when death was crawling around, and they had managed to preserve also their bloodline, culture and traditions. During the 6 centuries of Roman rule and 3 centuries of Slav devastation, they had changed also; the most visible one being their religion. But change was inevitable. For the most part they withstood the test of time, while others didn't. In centuries to come other tests would be put on these people with a tormented history, and they would surpass them too, against all odds.
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Post by Kassandros on Mar 15, 2008 15:06:36 GMT -5
bordura, nice post. On the other hand... I believe the Greek guys in NY spoke the trouth when they said "you're not like the other Albanians".... unless you want to put yourself in the same position with Atlantis who represents the majority of Albanians.. Its easy to see that... there is some kind of wisdom when Greeks speak!
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Post by mike67 on Mar 15, 2008 15:07:09 GMT -5
some more ..!!
"I have no time to write at length. I can say that terrible things are happening here. All this makes my blood curdle and I wonder over and over again how it is possible that a man can be such a barbarian and do such things. This is terrible, horrendous I do not dare and have no time to write extensively. I can say that Luma no longer exists. Everything has been turned into corpses, ashes and dust. There were villages with 100, 150 or 200 households in which absolutely no one was left alive. No one, I tell you ! They rounded up 40 to 50 people and slaughtered them all with knives. Ordinary looting is carried out everywhere. The officers seized hold of whole flocks of livestock and put their soldiers to sell them in Prizren..." From a letter of a Serb solder in 1912. ...In the years 1912-1913, 120 000 Albanians - men, women, boys, old folk and children, were wiped out; hundreds of villages, more in Kosova and less in Macedonia, were bombarded and most of them completely destroyed....
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"Enquete dans les Balkans" - Report of Inquiry Commission, Paris, 1914. REPORT PRESENTED TO THE CARNEGIE DOTATION BY THE MEMBERS OF THE INQUIRY COMMISSION IN 1914. EXTERMINATION, EMIGRATION, ASSIMILATION
As regards Albania, the members of the above-mentioned commission say: "The Albanian population suffered much more in the hands of the Serbs than what the Turkish population suffered in the hands of the Bulgarians
As for the Serbs, we have an authentic testimony, a letter of a Serbian soldier published by the Serbian socialist newspaper RADNICHE NOVINE October 9, 1922
"On the 20th of September, last year, new calendar, the Serbian army rounded up all the livestock of Malesia of Dibra. The herdsmen were forced to defend themselves and fight back, but they were all killed. Among them the Serbs have killed chieftain of the clan of Luma, Mehmet-Edem and Xhaver-Elezi, and went on pillaging and burning all the villages lying on their road: Peshkopia, Pleca and Doshisht in Lower Dibra; Allajbeg, Maqellara, Para, Obok, Kllobocishta and Sollikiq in Upper Dibra. In all villages, the Serbs have committed frightful massacres and violence against women, children and the old. In the very town of Dibra, the authorities issued an order for the bazaar to remain closed on Sunday and prohibited the inhabitant from coming out of their houses. They ordered the arrest of 48 notables. When the Serbs saw that the inhabitants of the ransacked villages mention above had come to claim their livestock and had encircled the town, they took the imprisoned notables and killed them in a most hideous manner. Since then, terror and despair reign among the Albanians of Dibra and its environs, and they have revolted. They have attacked the Serbs with firearms, spades, stones and sticks, and they have killed some and driven the rest out of the town. Virtually all those killed were Serbian functionaries and surviving soldiers fled across the Radika River…
"The villages of Lecan, Lisican, Dibrica, Helica, Desova, Gradeshnica, Collopek of a mixed Albanian and Bulgarian population, have been looted and put to the torch. Numerous Moslem families, with all their women and children, have been mercilessly massacred. After entering the village of Porcasi, the regular Serbian army took all the men out and asked the women to pay ransom if they wanted their husbands to be released. Nevertheless, after the ransom money was paid, these unfortunate men were shut into a mosque, which was blown up with four bombs. In the village of Sulp, 73 Albanians met with a horrible death and 47 others in the village of Collpek were basely killed. After the return of the Serbian army form the Albanian border, wasn't Prefect of Krusheva openly urging that all the villages lying between Krusheva and Ohri be burned?"
The Albanian petitioners, who on 21st September addressed themselves to the Great Powers in the name of the populations of Gjakova, Peja, Gucia and Plava of the former Vilayet of Kosova, were not exaggerating anything when they observed, in connection with this new theatre of revolt, that "the regular Serbian and Montenegrin troops, from the first day after invading the Albanian territory, have seized everything and executed everyone in order to wipe out any trace of the nationality of the inhabitants, or to brutally suppress the 'Shkiptare' (Albanian) race.
"Burning of houses and entire villages, mass extermination of the unarmed and innocent population, unheard of violence, pillage and brutality of all description, these are the means to which the Serbian and Montenegrin troops have resorted and are still resorting with the aim of entirely changing the ethnic physiognomy of the regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians."
Thus, we come to the second characteristic feature of the Balkan Wars, and this feature, apart from other things, is the necessary outcome of the first one. Since the population of the places which were going to be occupied knew by instinct, as well as by tradition and experience, that it had to guard against these enemy armies and the neighboring countries to which these armies belonged, it fled without waiting for the arrival. Thus, as a rule, the enemy army found on its way only half-deserted, if not entirely abandoned, villages. To carry out orders for extermination, it simply put them to the torch. Warned by the flames of the fires, the population fled in all haste. A real migration of the people followed, because, both in Macedonia and in Thrace, there is not a single place which , at some moment or another, did not find itself in the path of an army. This second fact struck the Commission everywhere it went. Endless lines of ox-carts, followed by emigrant families, plodded among the railways, and we found groups of refugees camped in the neighbourhood of the big towns…
The Albanian flee from the Serbs, and if emigration among the Serbs and the Bulgarians is not of a general character, this is so because these two nations have not, we may say, clashed on their own territories and because each claims that Macedonia, which both of them claim are coveting, is a place inhabited by their own congeners. That is why here we have to do with a question of extermination or emigration which the Serbs are employing against the Albanians; is an indirect means, which should lead to the same goal of conversation and assimilation.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Mar 15, 2008 15:11:31 GMT -5
I don't really know who wrote this.... but what does this mean ?
"in Illyria, the biggest part of the country, was taken from Illyrians by the Slavs, and the former were either eliminated or pushed southwards."
So the author doesn't really know if they were eliminated or pushed southward...? More holes in the 'theory" and when was Illyria a country LOL!
Actually the whole article tries in vain to connect through a tiny window Illyrians and Albanians... only to fall flat on it's face with the above sentence about them being eliminated ..... also another point of interest is the hundreds of thousands of 'new' people coming into the Balkans and adopting it's art and style.... Give me one good reason why Albanians were not some of these people?
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Post by mike67 on Mar 15, 2008 15:12:04 GMT -5
Books on Albanian History
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Albanische Studien, Johann Georg Von Hann, Wien, 1853. Albania, Eugenio Barbarich, Rome, 1905. Les Pélasges et leur descendants les Albanais, Georges Adamidi - Bulletin de l'Institut Égyptien, 1902. History of Rome, Vol. I - The Pelasgians, V. Duruy, Translated by W. J. Clarke, Boston, 1890. Das Albanesische Element in Griechenland - J. Ph. Fallmerayer, 1860. Dodone et ses ruines, Karapanos, Paris, 1878. Of the Albanian Language - William Martin Leake, London, 1814. Das Sandschak Berat in Albanien, Carl Patsch, Wien, 1904. Archæologisches aus Nordalbanien, Franz Baron Von Noposa, Wien, 1909. Albania Past and Present, Constantine A. Chekrezi, New York, The Macmillan Company 1919. History of Albania (A Brief Overview); Kristo Frasheri, Tirana 1964. Dalmatia; John Wilkes, London 1969 The History of Albania; A Puto, S Pollo, Tirana 1981 Albania's National Liberation Struggle; Reginald Hibbert, Pinter Publrs Aug 1991. The Illyrians; John Wilkes, 1992 Albania - Who Cares? : The Exclusive Inside Stroy; Hamilton, Bill Solanki, Bhasker (Ill.), Autumn House Oct 1992. Albania: A Modern History; Miranda Vickers, IB Tauris Apr 1995. Albania: From Anarchy to a Balkan Identity; James Pettifer, C Hurst Apr 1997. Albania: From Communism to Pluralism; Elez Biberaj, Westview P, US Feb 1998. Albania Into the 21st Century; Derek Hall, Pinter Publrs Apr 1994. Historical Dictionary of Albania; Hutchings, Raymond (Ed.), Scarecrow P Jan 1997. Albania and the Albanians; Derek Hall The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present; Edwin E. Jacques, McFarland, 1994. Kosova; Noel Malcolm History of Kosova; Miranda Vickers
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Post by Teuta1975 on Mar 15, 2008 15:16:24 GMT -5
Give me one sentence from the history books where is written that Albanians were some of these people. almost all newcomers are described by the antique historians...except Albanians.
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Post by mike67 on Mar 15, 2008 15:16:31 GMT -5
bordura, nice post. On the other hand... I believe the Greek guys in NY spoke the trouth when they said "you're not like the other Albanians".... unless you want to put yourself in the same position with Atlantis who represents the majority of Albanians.. Its easy to see that... there is some kind of wisdom when Greeks speak!
Sorry but no idea, there is no point,
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Post by mike67 on Mar 15, 2008 15:23:07 GMT -5
People of ballkans our History is mixed and also mess up, so to be more productive for the future make Peace and thing that all of us (Humans) are criation of God and universe, I don't give a D***m about race and religion, Im just testing U, end of conversation Who Cares, our reality year 2008 People!!
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