Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Jun 7, 2009 18:30:55 GMT -5
eh.. are you joking? Are you talking about Bosnian Muslims, or are you talking about these muslims mentioned here? Have you honestly never met us? What have people been telling you, lol I'm only asking because the Albanian muslims in Skopje I came across seemed very traditional and don't mix with the Macedonians much at all. And I thought maybe Bosnians are the same.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 8, 2009 5:05:12 GMT -5
I can't believe you've never seen us.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 9, 2009 12:01:51 GMT -5
I think it's great that Bosnia is becoming more religious. More power to them
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 9, 2009 12:28:03 GMT -5
Islam is a natural choice for many Bosnians. Face it, without it you wouldnt have an identity, it is what truly separates you from the Serbs and Croats. I think its sad when people lose their secular character since I think they lose the fun that makes life worth living (I view religious life as miserable and confined to obsolete morals and ideas).
Anyway, I dont see this as somehow a long-term thing. Its mostly a traumatized post-war generation looking for easy answers. As time passes and society develops, its bound to go into decline. Among Albanians, Kosovars and Ilirida (Alb from FYROM) are generally the more conservative than we from Albania (Ilrida far far more) and even there it has started to calm since the end of the war.
Give it time and you will see the children of these women throw faith off in favor of liberal life.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 9, 2009 12:45:47 GMT -5
I view religion as a good thing, and also believe the world will become more religious, not less religious.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 9, 2009 12:54:20 GMT -5
If science naturally develops more, and it will, societies will definitely become less religious. Enlightened and awakened societies will become less religious, those influenced by backward systems and thought will naturally become more religious. Those societies influenced by ignorance and hardship tend more to faith, those with a more educated and free thinking population will become less religious. Europe and its surrounding territory will not become more religious... not unless a bomb should fall on it and destroy all of its progress.
Here I would like to translate my signature:
There has come a time, in which people understand each other well enough in order to construct the Tower of Babyl, -- And on the top of the tower, the top of the throne, man will climb on top and he will call out: "God! Where are you?" - Migjeni
Ignorance and faith go hand in hand, sorry to say Thracian.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 9, 2009 13:09:32 GMT -5
I respect your opinion and, I disagree. Science and religion go together. One of the most accomplished & advanced soceities was the Ottomans and the European Renassiance - and all of it was through religion.
You can be free thinking and religious. They do not go against each other.
I agree that Europeans are less religious than the rest of the world - even Americans. I know churces are closing because no one goes to them anymore.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 9, 2009 13:34:09 GMT -5
Thracian, if science and religion go together, why does only 15% of Turkey believe in evolution, while the vast majority rejects it (same in America, a country with a larger collection of religious nuts than Europe)?
Yes they do. Religion has strict guidelines that must be followed and guidelines that direct the way you live your life. In order to be a member of that faith those guidelines must be followed and maintained. This completely contradicts the principals of free thinking. A person who is religious cannot possibly be a free thinker by default.
And both the Renaissance and the Enlightenment were characterized by a contradiction of church principals. Early Islamic science was also filled with men who contradicted Islamic principals. Yet Islamic Ottoman science never progressed to the extent of the later 1800 Europe. In the Ottoman Empire dissecting bodies would have been a no-no.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 9, 2009 19:02:02 GMT -5
Islam is a natural choice for many Bosnians. Face it, without it you wouldnt have an identity, it is what truly separates you from the Serbs and Croats. Go read some books. That's all I seriously have to tell you.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 11, 2009 13:11:12 GMT -5
Islam is a natural choice for many Bosnians. Face it, without it you wouldnt have an identity, it is what truly separates you from the Serbs and Croats. Go read some books. That's all I seriously have to tell you. Yes, cuz we all know Bosnians today can really identify with their medieval pre-Ottoman history. You guys have created these myths now that you are a nation in order to legitimize it when, face it, your identity is largely a Muslim one.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Jun 11, 2009 15:48:45 GMT -5
Neither can Serbs or Croats. We certainly aren't the same people we were a thousand years ago; different culture, language, even ethnic lines are more blurred. History is what shaped us into the people we are today, this is true for every nationality, and Bosnians have as much right to their own identity as everyone else does.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 11, 2009 17:21:57 GMT -5
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Post by tito on Jun 11, 2009 17:50:41 GMT -5
Most Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks who make a big deal out of their religion, do so in order to reaffirm their ethnic identity, seen as no matter what medieval history took place 500 years ago, the modern day Bosniak, Serb and Croat are essentially the same, apart from their religion, religion is just a way to show what ethnicity you belong to.. Please don’t insult the Bosniak people by suggesting that we are somehow the same as the Serbs and Croats. We do share a lot of similarities with the Croats but we are not the same and we have nothing in common with the Serbs.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jun 11, 2009 18:21:35 GMT -5
lol one of your funniest posts by far.
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Post by manijak on Jun 11, 2009 18:26:08 GMT -5
Most Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks who make a big deal out of their religion, do so in order to reaffirm their ethnic identity, seen as no matter what medieval history took place 500 years ago, the modern day Bosniak, Serb and Croat are essentially the same, apart from their religion, religion is just a way to show what ethnicity you belong to.. Please don’t insult the Bosniak people by suggesting that we are somehow the same as the Serbs and Croats. We do share a lot of similarities with the Croats but we are not the same and we have nothing in common with the Serbs. What's our background? illyrian?
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jun 11, 2009 18:27:47 GMT -5
^^^ Probably, I heard also they are the least endowed in our region; brain that is :-)
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Post by zgembo on Jun 11, 2009 18:53:13 GMT -5
Please don’t insult the Bosniak people by suggesting that we are somehow the same as the Serbs and Croats. We do share a lot of similarities with the Croats but we are not the same and we have nothing in common with the Serbs. LOL I wonder why our national symbol is the lilly... damn I just can't understand it. Oh yea, it was used by Muhammad as the first Islamic symbol. Now I remember. Fact of the matter is, the modern Bosnian identity is a by-product of nothing else but conversions to Islam during Ottoman rule. The fact that you identify with Christian pre-Ottoman Bosnia has more to do with your desire to have history (and a claim to Bosnia) than any actual facts. Nevertheless, I would never try to claim Bosnian Muslims as my own. They are different than us (Serbs) and the Turks came to these areas 600 years ago (more than enough time to create a separate nation, mentality, identity, etc.). But they are a relatively new nation and they are a by-product of Ottoman rule and nothing else (regardless of how hard they try to prove it otherwise).
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Post by tito on Jun 11, 2009 19:02:40 GMT -5
Please don’t insult the Bosniak people by suggesting that we are somehow the same as the Serbs and Croats. We do share a lot of similarities with the Croats but we are not the same and we have nothing in common with the Serbs. What's our background? illyrian? Mostly but before them there was others in Bosnia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butmir_CultureAnd before them we probably had an much greater civilization in Bosnia that built "the mother of all Pyramids", it’s the oldest, biggest and most important pyramid known to mankind. The ongoing excavation is expected to be complete by 2012, and according to the Bosniak archeologist who discovered the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids, this will "break a cloud of negative energy, allowing the Earth to receive cosmic energy from the centre of the galaxy", mother Bosnia will once again benefit from this gate that has been closed for so long that we have even forgot about it.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 11, 2009 19:46:04 GMT -5
Identification with the past leadership became "reawakened" as soon as you guys became a nation... so thats not new, in fact, I bet your nationalists were calling upon them from the very beginning. Your not alone, most other Balkan nations did the same. Just, I think, with you guys its a bit extra artificial since you identity is one that relies particularly on the religious differences. I mean, who identifies with this today? Muslim Bosniaks. Anyway, I dont mean any harm. I like Bosnians. Albanians, Bosnians and Turks have a special relationship in the Balkans and I support you guys.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 12, 2009 6:00:21 GMT -5
You can think all you want, anything that makes you feel better, historical sources are there to see.
It's not really that you don't want, it's that you can't because you've never managed to prove we ever called ourselves Serbs. What interests me are facts, I am the last person to deny our culture has been shaped much by religion, so was yours by the Orthodox church, as much as you don't like it all the foreigners will tell you "you are the same separated by 3 religions".
have you, ever tried to wonder who identifies with Serbs and Croats today? Ever wondered why magically all catholics are Croats and all orthodoxs are Serbs? It's not magic, is't history.
I don't care about your intentions, I care about you not spewing bs.
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