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Post by zgembo on Jun 12, 2009 12:47:11 GMT -5
We were shaped by our religion too, but our religion and our nation pre-dated the Ottoman arrival (that's the whole point). I can't say with certainty that you originally called yourself Serbs, but I am not saying you are (or were) Serbs. I am just saying linking yourself to the pre-Ottoman Christian kingdom of Bosnia is ridiculous when your modern identity is a by-product of associating with Islam.
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Jun 12, 2009 12:53:04 GMT -5
Ever wondered why magically all catholics are Croats and all orthodoxs are Serbs? It's not magic, is't history.
Damn thats alot of Croats and Serbs...
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Post by zgembo on Jun 12, 2009 14:00:14 GMT -5
I wonder, what are Macedonia Muslims called? Probably Bosniaks too LOL
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Post by captainalbania on Jun 12, 2009 14:45:54 GMT -5
No they are called "Torbeshi" we have some of them in albania.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 12, 2009 18:43:59 GMT -5
We were shaped by our religion too, but our religion and our nation pre-dated the Ottoman arrival (that's the whole point). I can't say with certainty that you originally called yourself Serbs, but I am not saying you are (or were) Serbs. I am just saying linking yourself to the pre-Ottoman Christian kingdom of Bosnia is ridiculous when your modern identity is a by-product of associating with Islam. If all your view on history if shaped around the Ottomans, I think it's you who have some complexes with them. The term Bosniak ("Bosnjanin" than, unless you want to claim that when documents speak about "Srbljem" it doesn't mean Serbs because nowadays you say Srbi and not Srbljem) predates the arrival of the Ottoman empire, as I think you also know that I, seriously, don't understand this costant denying of historical facts. We took new customs yet we never changed our name and stopped associating ourselves with Bosnia. Also, If you consider Serbs the tribes before their conversion to Orthodoxy or Ivo Andric a Serb, than you are just a blatant two sided person. As I said, at least history is there for everyone to see. Thank you for showing your ignorance once again
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Post by zgembo on Jun 13, 2009 3:02:22 GMT -5
Hey, all the Muslim converts in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Montenegro became Bosniaks all of a sudden, so my point is quite clear. I haven't heard of this Torbeshi name for Macedonians before, but I would assume that, first of all, it is a recent invention and, secondly, it was extrapolated from a region that had Muslims in Macedonia to include all Muslim converts in the country.
Fazla, you didn't just change your customs, you changed your name and associations as well. The Muslim converts in Bosnia didn't identify with Ban Kulin, Tvrtko and other elements of Bosnia's Christian history. They identified with the Sultans, Pashas and other Ottoman figureheads. For the longest time they referred to themselves as Turks as well.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 13, 2009 5:06:58 GMT -5
Hey, all the Muslim converts in Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia and Montenegro became Bosniaks all of a sudden, so my point is quite clear. For the very last time, It is undeniable the Bosniak identity acquired a new meaning, what is funny you denying it has been the very same for Serbs. All of a Sudden all orthodoxs in Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro became Serbs, and all catholics on all those four regions became Croats. You can claim they have always been like thism, it's your choice, but the truth is religion has been the main unifying factor of all of our 3 peoples, and that's undisputed among any non-biased person. It's not a recent invention at all. There aren't really many of them so no such policies have been adopted... stop seeing connspiracy theories everywhere. That might only show your lack of knowledge on the subject, unless you want to claim that Bosnia has seriously been inhabited by Greeks, Latins and Turks. Turk has always been a synonym for muslim untill post-ottoman time. Still the name Bosniak had never been forgotten, as witness many documents, where some proto-type of ethnic or national name had to be used for the inhabitants of Bosnia, it was Bosnians or Bosniak. Our strong bond with Islam is given by the fact that we've always been surrounded by Christians, and that forged a strong conscousness about it. Go to any place where a people with a different religion is a minority, and you'll see how their attachment to the religion is high. And the theories how we are "only" muslims go down the toilet, I wonder why all those non-muslim Bosniaks (meaning atheists, agnostics etc.) don't rush to change their name. If you think political and religious affiliation changes something about a people, you are wrong, but I think you do it only in certain cases when it suits you. Hellenism as "Pagan Greek civilisation" was alien to Greeks until they got independence, they saw it alien mainly because it was not orthodox. We got the freedom to freely write books about our culture, history, identity 17 years ago, you can dispute it all you want but you know it's true. If you think during Ottoman era Serbs identified with their non-orthodox slavic past... just know it has no serious connection to reality. Which doesn't mean nowadays you don't call them Serbs.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jun 13, 2009 8:27:20 GMT -5
lol I get on a plane and a few hours later, bang the same old story...some nice posts by everyone. I couldn't be stuffed quoting, time for bed!
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Post by Zvone on Jun 13, 2009 10:00:16 GMT -5
No, it wasn't that early. Nationalism arose in 19th century, before that they referred to themselves largely by a regionalized name. Dalmatians, Bosnians, etc. The only way one can asses who and what one was, is through religion. Religion indirectly branded people, while nationalism a thousand year later labeled them officially.
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Post by manijak on Jun 13, 2009 11:08:32 GMT -5
During that time we preffered de-centralized form of govt.(that was a bit unusual) Which tells me everything we need to know. We might be similar people but we knew to seperate the territories based on where we lived and we WANTED seperate rule.
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Post by zgembo on Jun 13, 2009 12:00:29 GMT -5
You can claim they have always been like thism, it's your choice, but the truth is religion has been the main unifying factor of all of our 3 peoples, and that's undisputed among any non-biased person. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is Muslims claiming pre-Ottoman Bosnia. That might only show your lack of knowledge on the subject, unless you want to claim that Bosnia has seriously been inhabited by Greeks, Latins and Turks. Turk has always been a synonym for muslim untill post-ottoman time. Still the name Bosniak had never been forgotten, as witness many documents, where some proto-type of ethnic or national name had to be used for the inhabitants of Bosnia, it was Bosnians or Bosniak. Our strong bond with Islam is given by the fact that we've always been surrounded by Christians, and that forged a strong conscousness about it. Go to any place where a people with a different religion is a minority, and you'll see how their attachment to the religion is high. Dude, justify it anyway you want. Fact of the matter is Muslims in Bosnia didn't identify with Ban Kulin and Tvrtko. They identified with the Sultans in Istanbul. And they did call themselves as Turks as well. Serbs never called themselves Greeks. There were periods when the Serbian Orthodox Church was suppressed, and the only representative of the Orthodox peoples was the Greek church. But that's neither here nor there. If you refuse to admit that Bosnian Muslims referred to themselves as Turks and that they identified more with Sultan Murat or whoever than Tvrtko, that's your problem. If you think during Ottoman era Serbs identified with their non-orthodox slavic past... just know it has no serious connection to reality. Which doesn't mean nowadays you don't call them Serbs. First of all, the notable difference is Serbs don't make claims through their non-Orthodox past, while Bosniaks do through their non-Muslim past. We are not waving around pictures of some mythological god called Perun, but Bosnian Muslims are claiming Tvrtko's legacy and Christian Bosnia's symbols. Secondly, paganism merged into Christianity. There was no such thing with Islam. You just took the religion of the conqueror, one that no less defeated that same Tvrtko. With Serbs there was mostly a clear transformation (Serb leaders took on Orthodox and their subjects followed). On the other hand, whoever converted to Islam for whatever reason (and at the behest of rulers from Istanbul, not local ones) in the ex-YU region became a Bosniak today. Anyway, I don't want to argue details with you because that can lost forever. Again, I am not suggesting Bosniaks are not a nation. 500-600 years is more than long enough to create a distinct identify (and being Muslim Slavs is very distinct). I also do not dispute that they have the right to call themselves Bosniaks (if you live in that region mostly by virtue of historical events, that's as legitimate as any other claim). I just take issue with manipulating history and claiming Bosnia's medieval past in order to solidify claims to Bosnia.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 13, 2009 19:01:47 GMT -5
Bosniaks called themselves Turks in a religious sense but nationally speaking they always made it clear they are not Turks. In a national sense, they were Bosniaks. If you want I can give you sources, no problems about it, just say. "Turk" was the norm for muslims in all the new conquered Ottoman states.
And I'm starting to think you have a weird notion of the verb "to identify". If to you it means waving images of someone, than it makes no sense. They didn't speak much about Tvrtko mainly because they really had no need to. Talks about ancient history started since the 19th century in our territories. If you think in Ottoman Serbia ordinary people identified themselves with ancient Serbian kings, you are really wrong, the most didn't really give a shit, the period of the 19th century is called "national reneassance" for a reason.
What claims? They are all in your heads. Unlike your politicians we always said Bosnia is for all of the 3 of us. Which doesn't mean we aren't the descendants of the old Bosniaks, at least the ones in Bosnia. Which also doesn't mean a lot of Serbs are, they just call themselves with a different name, and that's IMHO the major reason why their "claims" are laughable the most. I have no problems admitting that Bosniaks in Serbia are a product of a religious bond above all.
If you think Serbs before accepting christianity weren't fighting Christians you are very wrong and naive, you took the religion of the agressor as well. That there never was a forceful conversion on Bosniaks has been proven countlesly so what they did was their choice.
There's no manipulation of history, I'm just stating facts. Even you said what you don't like is a political "claim". But that's not history, history can't be changed.
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Denis
New Member
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Post by Denis on Jun 14, 2009 0:24:11 GMT -5
I as a Bosniak feel that the Islamic revival is something that should be universal, not just in Bosnia. Considering the fact that pure Islam and Muslims who follow true guidance can help accelerate in the world. Regardless of what islamophobes write about the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), or how everyone is jumping on the "hate islam" wagon, we need to look at the fact that people who mock religions instead of criticize them in an intelligent way are simply ignorant attention seekers who want to get the best of muslims so they can prove to muslims that we are "angry".
Well, considering the fact that Bosniak Nationalism really disguists me, I see it hard to see my people throwing away some habits. But I am not the one to judge them considering I don't hold a lot of weight as a scholar but I will say this.
I would love to see Bosniaks, Albanians, Macedonians and All other Muslims unite in the world and stop this seperation. It's really sad when people find it awkward for Bosnian and African muslims to hang out together and it's also really big here when for example a Bosnian woman marries a non-bosnian Muslim (other then Albanians being accepted because they're so close). It's also sickening that these super-zelous Bosniak Patriots (me being one before) are so stubborn when it comes to supporting Arabs and taking a stand against western tyranny.
In the end, my ultimate goal would be to somehow have a multi-religious Bosnia that's not secular. I love it when Serbs follow Orthodox Christianity rather then be reckless and defile their religion. Same goes for Croats (who well, for the record do somewhat of a well job following catholicism). I can only talk to individual Bosniaks about why I don't agree with secularism, and I have not right to bash my people considering that I don't know their conditions.I also am totally against forcing people to do things they don't want. That's the worst way to make people more religious is with force and/or bashing.
Dear brothers and sisters, look at what the Prophet(saw) did, the meccans threw thrash and camel guts at him, and when he conquered mecca no one was forced to convert to Islam or put to the sword. Let's do our best to better ourselves first.
But in the end, an Islamic revival in Bosnia can only be a plus in every way possible.
And I'm hoping the Islamic Critics don't dish out non-stop insults, I mean they throw the same refuted insults at us year-round and it doesn't anger me, it just takes a lot of typing to refute them.
But constructive criticism is welcoming.
~ Denis.
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Post by EriTopSheqeri on Jun 14, 2009 19:25:00 GMT -5
^^^Leave Albanians out of your sick dreams. It's clear you have no idea of who we are, thus you don't even care to know about us. Next time you post your fairy tales and accidentally happen to write Albanian-s, delete it.
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Denis
New Member
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Post by Denis on Jun 14, 2009 23:46:10 GMT -5
I dont care to know about you? I love Albanians. I have very dear friends of mine who are Albanians.
My sick dreams? Well, I'm sorry that your so close minded and freak out at my idea. And last I remember, your not a representative of Albanians. Just like I'm not a representative of Bosniaks.
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Post by thracian08 on Jun 16, 2009 13:19:29 GMT -5
Toskaliku, I do not agree with your statement. I don't believe people came from Monkey's either.
And actually in Islam, you are supposed to seek knowledge - ilim. It's a tenant of our faith. The big bang, and many other big thing such beginning of time can be found in the Kuran. Why would dissecting bodies be a no no? There is nothing in Islam that says you cannot dissect anything?
If it hadn't been for the Arab scientists in Spain, there would have been no European Rennaissance. Islam actually supports seeking of knowledge and wisdom.
In Christianity it is different, because the bible was changed therefore, it contradicts science like the earth is flat beliefs, etc.
Obviously, you have your beliefs, I have my own. My point is that they are not exclusive of each other.
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Jun 16, 2009 14:15:28 GMT -5
Bosniaks called themselves Turks in a religious sense but nationally speaking they always made it clear they are not Turks. In a national sense, they were Bosniaks. If you want I can give you sources, no problems about it, just say. "Turk" was the norm for muslims in all the new conquered Ottoman states. and as they identified as turks because of religion, so as did they refer to themselves as bosnians "by nationality", because they were inhabitants/citizens of the bosnian kingdom. but when speaking ethnicitywise, the old catholic bosnians were of the croat tribe. croats settled this land, and made this land their own territory within their kingdom, upon the invitation of the byzantines as reward for driving out the avars. the croats did not go anywhere once the territory named after the bosna river became its own kingdom. croats just made a new dynasty with the creation of the kingdom of bosnia, which was made from within the territory that was part of the croatian kingdom for 400 years before the kingdom of bosnia was formed. indigenous inhabitants assimilated long before, and there was no special separate bosnian identity heard of during the rule of this land by the croatian kingdom. there wasnt any records of a slavic speaking indigenous people that was separate from the rest of the croat populace at the time. even in the bosnian kingdom, they never said anything to mention about that they saw themselves as illyrian indigenous peoples, and/or that they separate from croats, but mysteriously speak the exact same language as the croats. no there wasnt, because being bosnian was simply nationalitywise, regional identitywise, but not ethnicwise. just the same as austrian is to german. and dont tell me about censuses where documents in the ottoman empire refer to catholics together with the muslims as bosnians, coz that means nothing. in the croatian census, citizens identified as austrians , aswell as germans, even though austrians are ethnically germans. it is just because bosnia was separated from the rest of croatia for such a long time, and having its own dynasty before ottoman rule, is why the ottomans have put down on their records of the inhabitants as just bosnians. the serbs in bosnia were put in their records in bosnia, because they migrated from serbia proper to there, but even vlachs were then put down as serbs, because they were under the serbian orthodox church. basically anyone who was under the serbian orthodox church was put down as serb. eventually most of the vlachs did became serbs through assimilation, but this is just an egsample of the innacuracy of these ottoman records. old catholic bosnians were and are croats. simple as that. ethnic bosniak formed by the muslims, from the originally regional identity, who want to deny anything that points to their origins being the same of croats. they practically ignore anything before the bosnian kingdom formed, like as if the world did not exist before it. this ignorance suits them well to support their new ethnic bosniak identity.
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Jun 16, 2009 15:40:27 GMT -5
^ The last statement was kind of a little too harsh. I implore all not to lose their nerves, and keep it civilized while arguing. Thank you.
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Jun 16, 2009 16:54:24 GMT -5
they might want to believe their madeup fantasies, but dont expect anyone else to believe it, and especially not the remaining catholics of bosnia today.
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Post by fazlinho on Jun 17, 2009 10:14:11 GMT -5
What I really hope you are not suggesting is that "Serbs and Croats" came in the 7th centuries or so here. What's true is that Slavs came into these lands, and as such were know by the most of western scholars, just as Slavs. What indeed I can prove is that Slavs came here, what you will never be able to prove is that those Slavs who settled in Bosnia were Croats, because till this day there's no document that has anything like that written. Rofl... if ONLY those bans would have declared themselves as Croats instead of speaking of Croats as another people. That they assimilated into croatdom is one thing you just made up here. As I repeated a hundred of times if you have documents where people in Bosnia proper call themselves Croats I BEG YOU post them, why the hell after 2 hundred years you try to "convince us" how we were Croats you still can't show one single document?? There wasn't much of a Bosnian identity because there were no strong Bosniak ruling classes back then, simple as that, it was much of an undeveloped region. What? Are you kidding me? There are TONS of documents that show how Bosnia had been inhabited by Illyrians, Vlachs, even Saxons. All you can say is that Croats ruled Bosnia after the Romans, what you can't prove is that the inhabitants called themselves Croats after their arrival. ?? I can't believe this in ALL document Bosniaks refer to themselves as such!!! Moreso, Stjepan Kotromanic talks about a Croat vassal he changed I'm sure you'll tell me that ancient rulers for some reason will speak about a 3rd party person with the name of their own people Ethnically they'd be germanic, not Germans. Ethnically we are Slavs. Even the Durch are germanic. Nonetheless, your definition of ethnicity is not the real definition of it. Lol I show you how alllllllll documents made by Bosniaks speak of them as Bosniaks, when referring to Croats speak of them as a foreign people, and yet NO they didn't really mean it. Unbelievable. You can't really ask me to deny the truth. To be quite honest, there wasn't really much before the Bosnian kingdom in Bosnia. And when asked to please provide and show all this big Croat culture that existed, you can't prove anything at all. We really aren't the ones who are changing history, nor have to claim anything.
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