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Post by terroreign on Apr 9, 2008 23:17:48 GMT -5
Albanian or English please!
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Post by plisbardhi on Apr 10, 2008 0:40:54 GMT -5
The Serbs can talk all they want but we are your real brothers for blood is the fundumental tie which binds us.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Apr 10, 2008 1:00:54 GMT -5
To Terror & Kiki!
Every subforum has as a local rule to only allow the local language or English as the written language for communication. You can talk in your own language in the Montenegrin, Croatian, Serbian or Bosnian subforums. That's why I had to edit your posts, and my apologies for that in case you were unaware of the rules!
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Post by terroreign on Apr 10, 2008 1:07:33 GMT -5
Duly noted donnie!
P.S. Can you tell me your views on the topic while you're here?
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Post by Duke John on Apr 10, 2008 3:06:10 GMT -5
Very interesting Terro, i wish that there will be close friendship between albanians and montenegrins.
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Post by julius on Apr 10, 2008 4:28:49 GMT -5
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Post by Pejoni on Apr 10, 2008 4:49:13 GMT -5
Same as with Hrvats and Bosnjaks, I get along very good with Crnogorci aswell.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Apr 10, 2008 6:02:43 GMT -5
Duly noted donnie! P.S. Can you tell me your views on the topic while you're here? I don't see Montenegrins as our brothers. I respect Montenegro's history as that of a free nation, and I respect the historical Montenegrins as brave warriors who defied the Turks and successfully preserved their independence. But then there's the other side of the coin ... the agressor which, with force, annexed purely Albanian territories such as parts of Malësia e Madhe (Gruda, Hoti, Tuzi), Kraja, Ulqin etc. The agressor which sang "Onamo 'namo" and perpetrated gruesome crimes in Kosova ... I remember names of criminals such as Sava Lazarevic known as Savë Batarja among Albanians because of his cruelties ... I remember the crimes committed against the people of Lugu i Baranit .... the custom of cutting off lips and noses of captives ... I remember that Montenegrin colonists came and usurped lands in Kosova ... etc. Having all this in mind, I can say this; I respect the Montenegrin people's decision to seceede from Serbia. How can anyone blame you? I believe there is a Montenegrin identity, separate from the Serbian identity, which is natural considering the history of Montenegro as its own distinct and independent principality. But I cannot call the Montenegrins 'my brothers'; I reserve this word for my Albanian brethren alone. A potential ally, however, definetely!
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Post by terroreign on Apr 10, 2008 12:36:09 GMT -5
Ok I see your point about the so-called "albanian lands" of Malesija, while at the same time you must understand that Slavs lived in Bruda Hoti and Tuzi, 1000 years before that! And fleed after the turks took over the area, how could you blame them for coming back??
Its like as if we Montenegrins are all living in Pristina, and we got there with the Italian Empire, no Albanians there anylonger, but then the albanians enter pristina and attack, freeing it from the Italians! And making it part of their Albania!
Can you not see the logic in this?
Besides the fact that, its a rule of the land; if your army fights "shoulder to shoulder" for a piece of land in the balkans, and WIN, they deserve that land, no matter the history.
You must respect that law. The turks knew this law very well, there whole country was built upon it.
Besides this, how do you see yourself distant fom Montenegrins? Language? Is that it?
Did you know Montenegrins at one point followed the Kanun?
Do you know we practice traditions to this day like vendetta and zakletva(Besa)?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Apr 10, 2008 13:26:02 GMT -5
Besides language we have history, loyalties and most of all a different identity. No doubt our peoples have much in common ... but it is relatively much due to geographic proximity. And it's not like all of the Albanians are 'identical' (or have things in common) with the Montenegrins ... more like the northern part of Albania and Kosova.
Firstly, it is Malësi, definite article Malësia, not "Malesija"/"Malaysia". A translation of the name into your language would become "Brda".
Malësia e Mbishkodrës is a purely Albanian territory. I don't care who lived there 1,000 years ago; modern historians know little if anything about the ethnic composition of the territory in question that far back in time. When Turks came and registered the peoples of Malësia e Mbishkodrës, they were essentially all carriers of typical Catholic Albanian names. Visitors of different kinds always confirmed its Albanian character, from Mariano Bolizza to Edith Durham.
Montenegrin victory was achieved through deceit, never honestly.
The Montenegrins were excellent warriors when it came to defending their homes. The highlands provided them natural fortresses which they used to their advantage. But when you turned from free people tryng to preserve your freedom to greedy wolves hungry for territorial expansion, you hit the wall that was the Albanian resistance. The Prizren League, although outnumbered, defeated the Montenegrin regulars in Plava & Gucia, by the bridge of Rzhanica as well as in Ulqin (where only the aid of the Turkish army and an international fleet of 20 modern ships made your 'victory' possible).
Then came the first Balkan war. We were attacked by THREE countries simultaneously; Montenegro in the north (which had mustered some 30,000 soldiers), Serbia from the northeast (over 300,000 soldiers) and Greece from the south. We couldn't concentrate our forces ... your "victory" was made possible through the deceiving of the Catholic highlanders and exploitation of our vulnerable position. Despite this, Nikola's forces were incapable of taking Shkodra. They needed the assistance of the Serbian army. And even then they couldn't get through the defence lines of combined Albanian forces consisting of Catholics and Muslims, highlanders and lowlanders, city people and rural people ... only the betrayal of Esat pasha made the conquest possible.
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Post by julius on Apr 10, 2008 13:36:21 GMT -5
only the betrayal of Esat pasha made the conquest possible. =============== The most sick fcuk in maybe the whole alb history.
A deserved death though. At that time legends were alive too.
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Post by terroreign on Apr 10, 2008 14:07:53 GMT -5
Well obviously a different identity, greeks and serbs are friends but they have different histories and are pretty different in many ways.
Geographic proximity? Really is that all? So the Kosovo Serbs are very similar to Kosovo albanians then? Hmm Why don't you go to Mitrovica and let them know donnie!
Or maybe the Macedonian slavs! Why don't they practice Besa or anything like the Montenegrins do?
Like I said, you being a Albanian from kosovo do not have a clear understanding on this issue, you're own nationalism is getting in the way.
No they do, and the people were slavic-speaking like the Balsici who lived in Skadar(Shkodra).
Catholic Albanian names? Such as? Nikole?? lol We have that name too buddy.
Yes people who were there about 100 years ago, when it was still in the hands of the turks, but they do include to mention the Montenegrin village of Vraka in albania!
Wow lost alot of respect with that comment, typical kind of idea from a person descending from an enslaved population, have no idea of what morals are.
Tuzi was just as Turkish as Niksic or Grahovo were, and we fought the turks and freed these places, for they are all our lands.
What kind of word-play you use here, 'as well as'? But in Ulcinj we won you momo, and fairly in every sense of the word.
It was the ottoman empire being attacked not Albania. Fact no matter how hard you try to spin it.
Deceiving the catholic highlanders? lol where is the proof of this? They helped us because they knew who their brothers were, the Montenegrins, and not the turks or the Turkophile albanians.
And exploiting vulnerable positions is a common practice in warfare, it's called 'smart' warfare.
Nonsense, we shelled the town and took it after with little trouble.
Skadar being part of the kingdom of Montenegro for 2 years.
You mean his surrender, because he knew there was no way he was going to win.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Apr 10, 2008 16:03:41 GMT -5
Geographic proximity and living under pretty similiar conditions; both being primarily pastoral people divided in clans where the lack of a centralized state and authority paved the way to the emergence of a martial world where notions such as besa/zakletva were central.
The origins of the Balsha family is a matter of dispute. And their ethnicity isn't necessarely a reflection of the commoners' ethnic identity, since the nobility of the time was quite mixed. And as for the Turkish censuses of the 15th & 16th centuries; the names of which i speak are for example Geg, Gon (Gjon), Progon, Gin (Gjin), Pal, Lul etc. This in contrast to the Slav Orthodox sphere, where names such as Nenko, Branko and so forth were common.
I'm from a little place called "the Laconia of Kosova". To help you out, Laconia was the landscape where ancient Sparta was situated. My ancestors were never enslaved ... quite on the contrary, they're renown for the fact that they always maintained their autonomy. And going further back, my ancestors came from Kastrat, Malësia e Mbishkodrës, some centuries ago. Kosova is, from a cultural aspect, a mere continuation of Malësia.
Officially, yes. But de facto, the only ones offering resistance were the Albanians, both Christian and Muslim. They were led by people such as Dedë Gjo' Luli, Marash Uci, Luigj Gurakuqi etc.
As for the rest; I do not have the energy nor the motivation to repeat myself. Needless to say you are a bit delusional concerning recent and medieval history. Now, don't look at this as 'nationalist nonsense' -- I am not saying I hate Montnegrins, or that I don't want for our two peoples to have anything in common. I have been to Montenegro several times, and I plan to visit again. My family owns estates there even. But calling you brothers is a little too much. And not necessarely because of our history. But as I said; I'd rather reserve this word for my fellow compatriots alone. Otherwise, the meaning of this term looses signifiance in my vocabulary.
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Post by terroreign on Apr 10, 2008 17:29:34 GMT -5
The Balsici might have disputed ethnic ancestry, but it does not explain the fact that they spoke slavic, and their capital was situated in Skadar(Shkodra). And even during Duklja, the capital was much of the time in Skadar!
If you really believe the language of the common folk wasn't slavic you are the one delusional.
Names like Djino, Dedo, Punisa, Vuleta, and Maras were common among Montenegrins during those times!
I'd like to see your source for your names.
And I understand you don't want to use the term "brothers" so easily, I personally don't see you guys as brothers in a closely-related way, but as like Friends.
I just named the topic so, to mess with the serbophiles a little.
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Post by filomen on Apr 11, 2008 5:05:28 GMT -5
I agree with terrorreign, in the past alb tribes was frendly with montenegrins tribe and during scanderbeg leage of Lesa o Lezha ther were montenegrins nobils in that league
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Post by montenegrodeki on Apr 11, 2008 5:33:19 GMT -5
I think terro has used this thread just to wind up the Serbs and it has worked. Im Montenegrin and really cannot find any thing in common with Albanians, i respect you as a nation and as a people but i dont consider you brothers as what i do with the Serbs, but the fact that Skanderbeg was of Montenegrin decent and Ivan Crnojevic married a Albanian, it shows that there are some connections with our two people, some clans in Montenegro have Albanian families.
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Post by terroreign on Apr 11, 2008 5:35:15 GMT -5
Yea, not to mention Danilo prvi wanted to join Montenegrins and Albanians in a political union!
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Apr 11, 2008 9:49:39 GMT -5
They probably spoke more languages than Slav. And Shkodra being the capital of Duklja at some point in history is really irrelevant. The reason for it being a centre was its size, for which there was no equivalent in Zeta. I'll do so when I have the book in my hands (perhaps you'll be patient for two-three days). But the source is a book written by Selami Pulaha, who in turn uses himself of Turkish censuses of the 15th and 16th centuries. "Fact" ? Skanderbeg was not of Montenegrin descent. The reason why some people seem to believe this is due to a confusion; his mother's name was Vojsava, which people have erroneously linked with the tribe name of the Vasojevici. Vojsava however was from Polog (modern day Macedonia) and her husband (Skanderbeg's father) John Kastrioti was from Dibër, two adjacent territories. This becomes logical when observing following map; Notice how far south Dibër is in relation to Montenegro. Why would John Kastrioti travel so far north to get a bride? On the other hand, the Polog Valley is right to the east of Dibër. Another fact which might have led to this confusion is that one of Skanderbeg's sisters married Ivan Crnojevic because the latter was a member of the League of Lezha (Lidhja e Lezhës) 1444. It was commonplace in the Middle Age to 'exchange' brides and thus forge alliances.
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Post by plisbardhi on Apr 11, 2008 15:32:45 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong donnie, but I remember reading somewhere that Pollog was a Balsha territory. So could Voisava Tripalda have been a Balsha, or of a local lord subject to the Balsha?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Apr 11, 2008 15:55:48 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong donnie, but I remember reading somewhere that Pollog was a Balsha territory. So could Voisava Tripalda have been a Balsha, or of a local lord subject to the Balsha? Well, it's been a long time ago since I've read on the Balsha's. I do not think Vojsava was a Balsha ... if so, I think Barleti would have mentioned it, since he does mention the ties between the Kastrioti and Balsha families (Gjokë Stres Balsha was Skanderbegäs nephew for instance). And I am not sure if Balsha territory also included Polog. I doubt so really. Vojsava was described as a princess of the "Triballi", which although originally the name of an ancient Thracian tribe, was during the Middle Age synonymous to being Slavic. In other words, there is a good chance she was Slav ... but then again, Dusan was 3/4 Bulgarian; you only took into account the father's side, and John Kastrioti was an Albanian from Dibra, lord of Sinja and Lower Gardh.
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