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Post by insomniac on Sept 23, 2009 13:10:34 GMT -5
Many Christians have moved abroad for better opportunities. Nobody wants to live in a place that doesn't give opportunities to your kids or your families. And Muslims have been going abroad moreso than Christian. Who do you think gives us a bad name in Greece, UK...etc?
What doesn't matter is how proud one thinks of himself.
They are hardly the representation or the patriotic ideal citizens. I would argue for the opposite. Those who yell the loudest are probably the least representative of Albanianism.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 23, 2009 13:18:52 GMT -5
I dont care why, Im telling you many have moved... making your little stastic quite erroneous. It presumes that Albanians have been static since 1990... they have no. That Albanians have no experienced any dislocations and movements... they have.
All this means that properly assessing which Albanian is what is not easily done. We cannot even get a proper stastistic over who is left and how many, let alone what they are. I can say quite confidently, however, that Christians in the south have been moving at a higher rate than Muslims. Territories which back in the day had strong Christian elements have been diluted by Cham Muslims and Lab Muslim growth in last few decades. Even Himara and its neighboring area has experienced Muslim immigration, something it has never seen in its history.
Im not saying radicals, Im saying just Muslims in general. They gave more support to the NLA or UCK than anyone else. Muslims have shown time and time again that they are the backbone of the country. The foundation from which it stands.
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Post by insomniac on Sept 23, 2009 13:26:29 GMT -5
You mean Muslims have a higher birth rate. But the rate of migration is probably the same for both Christian and Muslims. We hear more from muslims villagers which have gone to Greece, UK.. etc Because they are featured in the news more doing crimes ... etc.
As for the hardcore muslims of Tetova. I dont even count the muslims of Tetova as Albanians. To me they are simply Arabs. Those who gave up their identity, to take up some eastern imposed new identity.
Unfortunately, it has come to a point where a Serb(from Montenegro or wherever) could pass more for Albanian.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 23, 2009 13:35:58 GMT -5
Not in the south. Orthodox Christians have an easier time applying for papers to leave for Greece than Muslims and so can leave easier. Read the report on Lunxheri.
Not to mention Muslims do infact have a higher birthrate.
They are Albanians... probably more patriotic than you and more willing to give their all for the nation than most, even if they have radical ideas.
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Post by insomniac on Sept 23, 2009 13:41:09 GMT -5
They have filled YouTube with bullchit lately. Posted about 100 videos talking about Allah.
These people are Albanian-speaking but not Albanians. They have more in common with Bosniaks.
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Post by L0gjICK on Sept 23, 2009 13:50:18 GMT -5
^^^^^^
I will say the internet connects people towards all sorts of ideas. You should check out some of the stuff Catholic Albanians put out.
PS:
Tetovars are conservative but most don't look or act like that. Have you ever been there Insomniac?
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Post by insomniac on Sept 23, 2009 13:56:38 GMT -5
Well, i bet the Catholic are not as numerous as these people. They are probably miniscule. Yeah, in all honesty we should watch out for Christian brainwashing as well esp. those missionaries. I dislike them. But that's what happens when you have a large poor peasant population. Easy to manipulate.
No, ive never been to Tetova. I would like to do a Balkan trip. And get to see different areas.
But i think people like that should be included under a new ethnicity. In Montenegro, Muslim is an ethnicity and a religion.
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Post by L0gjICK on Sept 23, 2009 14:05:29 GMT -5
As much as I hate Enveri, I do think his practice towards religion were necessary. During my grandmother's time (around Rankovic's time) the Hoxhas (who were supposedly bribed by the slavs) would tell the Albanians :
"Mos e lej coucen te shkoj ne shkoll se te behet Kaur"
And the above is just one example, I'm not even sure what else those d-bags would tell the popluation. Such stupid mentality , and for the religious institution to mainipulate the population like that sickens me. The Albanians in Macedonia need to get rid of the foreign presence that will worsen the situation.
P.S.
If you end up going to Macedonia, don't stay in Tetove too long because there isn't much to do. Shkup is nice, Struga has a pretty nice night life and a lake. Thats about it for the Albanian places. Gostivar and Kercova aren't even worth your time and Prespa doesn't have much either. Monastir is also worth going to but the area is 80%+ Slavic by now.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 23, 2009 15:38:34 GMT -5
Youtube is a medium by which these groups communicate. The internet in general is a way for them to express themselves. They are somewhat lost youths deeply vested in their religion to a rather unhealthy point. Besides the internet they do not really have any way to express themselves or to really communicate since in Albania they do not offer anything. And as such you see them clinging to youtube through various videos and profiles.
Nevertheless, those hoxhas and imams actively pursue Albanian national issues, so at least nationalism can be indoctrinated into them. However, what can we say for the Christian groups? What comment has you church leader made about Kosov.... oh wait... Janullatos is Greek...
For Muslim Albanians, being Muslim and Albanian does not offer any conflict. It can be intertwined since Albanians are generalized as such. However, can we say the same for Christians? I think so. What if tomorrow the chance for the EU is removed and it is no longer an option for Albs to feel European... what would happen then?
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Post by insomniac on Sept 23, 2009 15:59:50 GMT -5
EU is a pretty recent creation. Actually in the last 20 years it has gotten more popular. Before that it was just European Economic Commission and before that European Coal and Steel community.
You keep thinking that the Orthodox Albanian identity is so unstable. As if we were invented 20 years ago. LOL. That if European Union does not exist, we will somehow turn into Greeks? Sounds very stupid.
We are still here, aren't we? If anything we can claim to be remnants of Byzantine Empire which preceded Ottoman Empire.
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Post by ilirdardani on Sept 23, 2009 16:06:24 GMT -5
They have filled YouTube with bullchit lately. Posted about 100 videos talking about Allah. These people are Albanian-speaking but not Albanians. They have more in common with Bosniaks. ^ These guys should be shot to death. Simple as that. I effin hate muslim extremists, come to think of it they've all shown up after 1999.  |
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Post by ilirdardani on Sept 23, 2009 16:07:38 GMT -5
Both our govts should work against them, (meaning both Kosovo and Albania), anyone who preaches anti-western bullshit gets a prison sentence, or better yet a one way ticket to Iran.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 23, 2009 16:08:01 GMT -5
I dont see the idea of being a "remnant of the Byzantine Empire" as in anyway positive... Greeks are such remnants, Serbs are such remnants... but for Albanians of today to say such things? Nonsense... Nothing will happen to them... they will be... its comments like this that actually makes me support them. Anyone who preaches anti-western ideas will be able to do so freely in his own country of birth.  |
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Post by insomniac on Sept 23, 2009 16:11:12 GMT -5
It's nonsense because you are not consistent.
If you can claim to be a remnant of Ottoman Empire. Thus in essence dividing Albanians among religion. You expect the other side to not react to that?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 23, 2009 16:14:06 GMT -5
Inconsistency is a bich isnt it... Albanians are on the whole a people sharply influenced by the Ottoman era. We long ago eradicated most of the cultural inheritances from the Byzantines Empire.
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Post by insomniac on Sept 23, 2009 16:15:00 GMT -5
Not really. 30% of Albania has more in common with Serbs than with the rest of Muslims. Come to think of it, if it wasn't for the Ottomans our relations would today be excellent.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 23, 2009 16:17:53 GMT -5
Well, I for one know that as you are writing that, you dont feel quite comfortable saying it. In fact the very fact that you posted it is to show some kind of stalwart opposition to me...
You can see it that way if you want, but ultimately it will only serve to isolate you from the general Albanian community.
Its a fact of life that when it comes to historical issues, one of us will be more uncomfortable than the other when discussing from a certain point of view. If I discuss the role of Albanian Muslims in the Ottoman complex, I know Orthodox family members who dont say much throughout, because their place within this role is questionable... and vice versa.
However, its the remnants of one group who are opposed to us today and the remnants of another that support us... and thus inconsistency is acceptable here.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Sept 23, 2009 16:20:09 GMT -5
I often wonder how Kristoforidhi felt when he heard his best friend in Istanbul, Sami Frasheri, wrote papers on how Albanians and Turks are brotherly people and how Albanians will always support the Ottoman Empire.
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Post by insomniac on Sept 23, 2009 16:21:28 GMT -5
I'm being consistent using your logic. If you feel you are different than "kaurs". Why do you get offended when they feel different from you? It doesn't add up.
Why do you think I am uncomfortable? Serbs never had problems with orthodox Albanians. They only had problems with the Ottoman remnants(bosniaks and muslim Albanians).
Do you see where logic and consistency take us now?
You of all people should be okay with all this. Because that's what you have been preaching in these forums.
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Post by ilirdardani on Sept 23, 2009 16:27:54 GMT -5
Not really. 30% of Albania has more in common with Serbs than with the rest of Muslims. Come to think of it, if it wasn't for the Ottomans our relations would today be excellent. Exactly, and so would they be with Greece, and there wouldn't be all this hate that they have towards us. (because we're seen as muslim) and because of guys like this turk here. |
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