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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 20, 2009 11:09:22 GMT -5
The Protocol of Corfu was created because Albania had no choice but to sign it. Just like the Turks were put under pressure to sign the lausanne treaty, Albanians were put under foreign pressure to sign the Corfu Protocol, which was signed by a king Albanians didn't not accept (Weid). And it still exists till this day haunting you...I personaly don't think it's warrented for them to break way not up to Greece BUT If they want it, their rights should be respected as equals in Albania nation at least. I know Albanians suffered extreme cruelty as well during the communist years, but to state that they didn't is absurd. Since 1913, the Government of Albania has illegally occupied Epirus, now is the time to DEMAND that Epirus be given the opportunity to exercise the self-determination that is hers by right! Those rights were established in the Corfu Protocol of 1914 and signed by the governments of England, France, Germany, Austria, Russia and Italy, this Protocol was unconditionally accepted by the government of Albania. To date, Albania has refused to implement the Corfu Protocol.members.cox.net/epirus/The power of the day then recognized the Hellenic characheter of the entire Epirus region, as for the current Greek Epirus dream on. . Is that your 'source'?
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Aris
Amicus
Greek Troll
Posts: 832
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Post by Aris on Jul 20, 2009 13:48:34 GMT -5
The "Protocol of Corfu" signed between the Gayreeks of Albania and the Karamanlides from Anatolia ! ;D
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Post by albpatriot18 on Jul 21, 2009 19:04:14 GMT -5
Are those maps showing orthodox Albanians in Epirus in the 1850 and then were these people Hellenized? You said that orthodox Albanians would sympathize with the Greeks because of there religion in the beginning of the 20th century. Other wise why would they show an Albanian majority?
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 2:06:55 GMT -5
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 2:09:26 GMT -5
Beats wiki's anytime. Wikipedia is that kind of asylum for any kind of lunatics and nerds like Highduke, who think they can change the history Even bato agrees
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 2:26:08 GMT -5
Here is more and interesting... Interesting...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 3:00:15 GMT -5
The first source seems to discount Albanian non-Muslims to a large extent, as was typical of most in that time. It does not count Christian Albanians. For instance, one line reads "Greeks and Christians" and then says "Albanians and Mussulmans". Is a Christian necessarily a Greek and vice versa? Is an Alb necessarily a Muslim? You cant make up an ethnic map on those lines and it shows the mistake in relying on contemporary writings. A 1914 NY Times article speaks of Greek tyranny in Korca during the occupation while another article talks about how happy the population is based on the interests of the person. A Columnist writing for the promotion of Greek interests and views will support that. In All, nothing you brought counters the maps above. All it shows is that no group had a clear picture since borders and ethnicity was still a vague concept for those living in the area. They are all part of the same confusion. bring some modern studies, Arxhi, that make use of these sources and then make proper judgements. Here is from a Greek source: Venizelos had to even argue against the fact that much of the Christian population was Albanian speaking:
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 3:10:33 GMT -5
If in fact southern Albania was majority Greek... why did Venizelos not argue on a demographic basis but rather on a cultural-historical one? hmmm...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 3:17:04 GMT -5
This below addresses what you posted above:
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 3:22:31 GMT -5
Just so you know, this isnt Macedoniaontheweb where some retard with quasi-literate ability can pick out a passage from some vague 19th century study he found and pass it off as god's gift. Its not a game of handing out sources and highlights, but of properly coming to understand the realities of the period, primary source faults and successes.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 3:48:56 GMT -5
According to Winnifrith, Badlands/Borderlands: Ali Pasha's life is what is cut off at the end of the page. In page 121, he writes: (Muslim and Christian population about equal. This would very much break the records kept up above... that Christians were in such a strong majority.) 122: (The numbers given in the first paragraph are for ALL of the province of Yanya, all of Epirus, southern Albania, part of western Macedonia province of Greece).
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 3:52:50 GMT -5
If in fact southern Albania was majority Greek... why did Venizelos not argue on a demographic basis but rather on a cultural-historical one? hmmm... Because Venizelo wasn’t a demographer or an historian nor was Miranda Vickers rather weak sources considering the articles I gave are accepted in both Cambridge and Harvard and other world universities…If you think they are worth more then toilet paper why not post those on to those hilarious wiki’s ;D ;D Good luck !
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 3:55:34 GMT -5
I prefer the Turkish statistics over this They are more reliable sources...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 3:56:53 GMT -5
If in fact southern Albania was majority Greek... why did Venizelos not argue on a demographic basis but rather on a cultural-historical one? hmmm... Because Venizelo wasn’t a demographer or an historian nor was Miranda Vickers rather weak sources considering the articles I gave are accepted in both Cambridge and Harvard and other world universities…If you think they are worth more then toilet paper why not post those on to those hilarious wiki’s ;D ;D Good luck ! 1. I used more than just Miranda. The source citing Venizelos is not Miranda. She is well accepted and used often by those who write on Albanian history, particularly the last century. You guys use her when you want to attack Albanian nationalism on your macedoniaontheweb, I can use her for her arguments in favor of Albania. Venizelos argued on the cultural point because he knew that Albanian-speakers were of a majority in the region. Just as all the modern sources I broughout confirm. 2. Venizelos argued demographically for the Dedocanese islands. So certainly he had that for the others. You didnt even read what I posted, because thats exactly the issue that was addressed. You looked for a source to bash and then went on the attack. Btw, Miranda is also accepted by Harvard and Cambridge. You can find her book in their archives as well. 3. The sources you posted are outdated 19th-early 20th century sources that are no longer of any use for scholarship outside of research within a whole study of sources in general.
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 3:57:40 GMT -5
You really should read this...Go on.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 3:59:51 GMT -5
I did read it, and pointed out the problems and why its not a legit source anymore: its outdated.
Learn to argue properly, rather than just play down something without bringing any backup.
Anyway, Ill post some more stuff later on. Im not trying to convince you, just to show others how easy it was to break your argument. Ill post some more later.
PS: Use Winnifrith, he is the only person to have written an in depth study on the region... I sure did.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 22, 2009 4:07:19 GMT -5
Interesting sources...post more...Im personally interested in them, too...
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 4:08:40 GMT -5
1. I used more than just Miranda. The source citing Venizelos is not Miranda. I know that and I didn't say it was. Albanian history according to Albanian .com specialists and who cares where my sources came from they were not created with crayons or color pencils BUT pulled out from Universities it's just that you don't like it and is damaging to your ultra nationalist dreams. He's not qualified, it's like saying Enver Hoxia was because he was a politician. Hahaha outdated ? Are you for real, my how weak of an argument, loosers use this to sqeeze out of a situation they are indeed relevant to the topic............... Pull my other leg .
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Post by insomniac on Jul 22, 2009 4:10:00 GMT -5
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 4:31:58 GMT -5
1. Miranda Vickers is not only a good source, she is considered to be an authoritative source on Balkan studies regarding Albania and Kosovo. She is even used extensively BY research institutes and researchers, here is a short number of them: Sappho Xenakis 7.2.01 The Challenge of Organised Crime to State Sovereignty in the Balkans : An Historical Approach To what extent is organised crime posing a new challenge to state sovereignty in the Balkans? www.hks.harvard.edu/kokkalis/GSW3/Sappho_Xenakis.pdfJames Pettifier, a professor of Balkan Studies co-wrote a study on Albania with her, look at his Curriculum Vitae: www.hks.harvard.edu/kokkalis/Pettifer,%20James%20-%20CV.pdf James Pettifer is Professor in the Conflict Studies Research Centre of the Defence Academy, UK, and Visiting Professor in the Department of History in the University of Tetovo, FYROM. He works on the nineteenth and twentieth century Balkans, as well as Greece and Turkey. He is author of numerous books on the region, including Greece-Land and People since World War II (1993), The Turkish Labyrinth (1996), The New Macedonian Question (1999), Blue Guide to Bulgaria (1998), Albania-from Anarchy to a Balkan Identity (1997, with Miranda Vickers), Kosova Express (2004) and The Albanian Question (2006, with Miranda Vickers). He wrote the northern Greek section of Blue Guide Greece (7th edition, 2005), and with his daughter Julia, co-authored a book on Butrint, (Tirana, 2007). He was a writer for The London Times during the post-communist and wartime period in the Balkans from 1989 to 2001. www.princeton.edu/~hellenic/visiting2007-08.htmlHer book received a formal review by Oxford's Islamic Studies Department: jis.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/issue_pdf/frontmatter_pdf/11/2.pdf She is considered so trustworthy that she was allowed to give a presentation on the Chams in Englands' Conflict Studies Research Centre. This is part of the Defense Academy of UK. www.da.mod.uk/colleges/arag/document-listings/balkan/07(01)MV.pdfAnother scholarly paper that uses her: www.georgefox.edu/academics/undergrad/departments/soc-swk/ree/Inter-church_Murzaku.pdfInes Angeli Murzaku is an Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Seton Hall University in South Orange New Jersey,USA as well as a visiting professor at the University of Bologna and University of Calabria in Italy. Dr. Murzaku is an ecclesiastical historian focusing on Byzantine and modern Christianity. Dr. Murzaku has authored Catholicism, Culture and Conversion: The History of the Jesuits in Albania (1841-1946), published by Orientalia Christiana Analecta in 2006; and is the general editor of Quo Vadis Eastern Europe? Religion, State and Society after Communism, forthcoming by the University of Bologna in April 2008. Dr.Murzaku is currently the vice president of the Association for the Study of Nationalities (ASN), and an executive board member of Christians Associated for Relationships with Eastern Europe (CAREE). Muzarku is in fact Albanian, nevertheless, a scholar and a professor. According to a scholarly review from JSTOR: (The 'But' was because the critic criticized her for not giving more detail on Hoxha and Geraldine by using more Albanian sources to understand the era from the perspective of Albanians).
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