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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 4:38:28 GMT -5
Number of articles that make use of Miranda, from the Project Muse page:
The Politics of Memory and the Reconstruction of Albanian National Identity in Postwar Kosovo Valur Ingimundarson. History & Memory, Volume 19, Number 1, Spring/Summer 2007, pp. 95-123 (Article) DOI: 10.1353/ham.2007.0011
Full Access HTML Version | Full Access PDF Version (165k) ...Valur Ingimundarson. - The Politics of Memory and the Reconstruction...reinforced Kosovar Albanians' determination, based on memories of...-- one based on a nineteenth-century modernist discourse and...used to carve out a modern Kosovar Albanian identity. It became a...in Postwar Kosovo - History & Memory 19:1 History & Memory 19.1 (2007)...Serbian rule. As Miranda Vickers put it: the "fact that the LDK had...), 71. 11. See Miranda Vickers, Between Serb and Albanian: A History of...
The Kosovo Dilemma: Albanian War Concept vs. Serbian Peaceful Compromise Dušan T. Bataković Serbian Studies: Journal of the North American Society for Serbian Studies, Volume 20, Number 2, 2006, pp. 213-229 (Article) DOI: 10.1353/ser.0.0025
Full Access HTML Version | Full Access PDF Version (231k) | Summary ...Studies: Journal of the North American Society for Serbian Studies...Constitution.3 Kosovo Albanians obtained the main say in political life, a...that represent a long-term threat to the stability of both...the Ottoman rule, modern Kingdom of Serbia and royal Yugoslavia...for the first time in history as a separate administrative unit,...is to be found in: Miranda Vickers, Between Serb and Albanian. A..., 1995, and Miranda Vickers, The Albanians. A modern History, London: I....
Containing Kosovo Bardos, Gordon N. Mediterranean Quarterly, Volume 16, Number 3, Summer 2005, pp. 17-43 (Article)
Full Access HTML Version | Full Access PDF Version (211k) ...Kosovo Gordon N. Bardos The international community's five-year...that thousands of Albanians sat silently on the road. Asked why, one..., human rights, and a multiethnic society to Kosovo have utterly...See Loretta Napoleoni, Modern Jihad: Tracing the Dollars Behind the...? Indeed, recent Balkan history provides example after example showing.... See Hugh Poulton and Miranda Vickers, "The Kosovo Albanians: Ethnic...): 293. See also Miranda Vickers, Between Serb and Albanian: A History of...
De-Mystifying the Serbian Horse Balis, Christina V. SAIS Review, Volume 20, Number 1, Winter-Spring 2000, pp. 177-189 (Article) DOI: 10.1353/sais.2000.0002
Full Access HTML Version .... Balis - De-Mystifying the Serbian Horse - SAIS Review 20:1 SAIS..., mostly ethnic Albanians, when the police began to disperse an..."freedom," has in a mere decade fought and lost four wars, a...leaders in today's modern "de-bellicized societies" must...by searching through history, to find a culprit other than ourselves..., 1995) p. 72. 14. Miranda Vickers, Between Serb and Albanian: A...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 4:45:06 GMT -5
I think this more than establishes her credibility as a researcher and writer. So now, if you have particular beef with her book... bring up the parts and tell us why she is wrong or what she may have misused.
As a politician, he should very much be qualified, since he is arguing the case of his countries expansion, which did not win favor. At the Paris Peace Conference, Venizelos was given the stage and told 'convince us' by the Europeans. He tried to do just that. He gave a number of Greeks at 120,000 and Albanians at 80,000. He further went to say that a significant number of those on the 'Greek' side are Albanian-speakers and thus of Albanian origin. Kitromilides sees this as a rhetorical maneuver from the demographically based argument of the Aegean island to the cultural one in southern Albania. This means that Venizelos himself was unsure of how his ethnic argument would hold over in case of Albania. As Miranda showed in the part I quoted: Venizelos had received doubts as to whether or not the majority of the population was Greek leaning. That, in fact, the majority of the countryside was Albanian speaking. Even Kitromilides argues that the majority of the area was Albanian speaking.
Whats more, going by Winnifrith, who used a long list of sources to provide his conclusion, Miranda is actually entirely right. The balance between Muslims and Christians was small and in fact the Christian of Albanian origin added further weight to the Albanian side, making the Greeks reliant upon Vlach registration as Greek.
In All, Winnifrith's, Miranda's and Kitromilides' amount together as significant sources since they all come to a common agreement: Greeks had to rely upon Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs for getting a substantial number, 2) Albanian speakers were in a clear majority, 3) Venizelos had to circumvent that argument in order to win.
Two vague sources of yours ( I cant even find other publications on those figures, nor any reason why i should trust them so much since I cant find them cited on googlebook, JSTOR, Project MUSE or anywhere).
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 4:54:17 GMT -5
Now, could you bring some modern sources that make use of those 19th century ones and weigh them out with others so we can really get a good perspective or will you still just try and downplay everything I post?
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 6:07:29 GMT -5
Now, could you bring some modern sources that make use of those 19th century ones and weigh them out with others so we can really get a good perspective or will you still just try and downplay everything I post? Ok we are both guilty of down playing things. My purpose was to refute the topic starter my sources are dated same as the topic starters claims, why on earth do I need to bring in modern ones ? ? ? what the hell for, they are more then enough to smash those pseudo claims successfully. Well you like Miranda Vickers now, next month you won't on another argument because she also doesn't believe you are connected with the illyrains example of many also you guy's have been caught falsifying her works, to this day I have yet to receive a link for the supposing claim of some 200,000 chams direct claim from her when in fact the true numbers are 20,000 an extra zero was added. It's not her credibilty I have a beef with BUT you guy's ability to copy and paste research without providing links to them that I am suspicious off and Miranda Vickers is one you won't provide to this day of copy and past jobs from the past concerning her works. I think it's fair I have my reservations regarding her works thanks to you fellas. .
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 6:39:40 GMT -5
In case your wondering; On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today
ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated
From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157. Since now you suddenly like wiki, I have decided to give you a little gift as a signature; ;D
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 12:39:05 GMT -5
Now, could you bring some modern sources that make use of those 19th century ones and weigh them out with others so we can really get a good perspective or will you still just try and downplay everything I post? Ok we are both guilty of down playing things. My purpose was to refute the topic starter my sources are dated same as the topic starters claims, why on earth do I need to bring in modern ones ? ? ? what the hell for, they are more then enough to smash those pseudo claims successfully. Well you like Miranda Vickers now, next month you won't on another argument because she also doesn't believe you are connected with the illyrains example of many also you guy's have been caught falsifying her works, to this day I have yet to receive a link for the supposing claim of some 200,000 chams direct claim from her when in fact the true numbers are 20,000 an extra zero was added. It's not her credibilty I have a beef with BUT you guy's ability to copy and paste research without providing links to them that I am suspicious off and Miranda Vickers is one you won't provide to this day of copy and past jobs from the past concerning her works. I think it's fair I have my reservations regarding her works thanks to you fellas. . 1. Im not the average Alb here, so stop with this 'you guys' especially since you have seen me actively criticizing the historical views of my own people, beginning with the You didnt refute anything, just added to confusion. Those maps have just as much a basis as your papers. Only that their ethnic calculations are drawn on and not written on. We use modern sources since sources of that time are problematic. Read Winnifrith's statement above as to why they are a problem to use. I posted it for a reason. He is an active writer on southern Albania and has published one of the most useful books on it. Fact is, the ethnographers of that time could confuse people since many were bilingual. Many Albanians could also speak Greek as well, just that they spoke Albanian at home. The League of Nations made the decision to award it to Albania based on the principal that the majority of the population spoke Albanian at HOME. Plus, your sources are so vague. Where are their own sources from? What gives them legitimacy? Who made them? Based on what? Did he travel there? The fact is you only gave a few random pages of an over 100 year old paper and told us to swallow it. Thats why you need to give a modern source, like Winnifrith, as I did: they weighout the different primary ones. I have never used wiki. You have been the only one to use it in arguments made against me. In fact, many times without even checking the sources. So dont throw stones in a glass house.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 22, 2009 13:35:19 GMT -5
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Post by Arxileas on Jul 22, 2009 18:58:07 GMT -5
This one doesn't work for me Yeah well that one is in agreement with my sources see mine carefully. That's what you say, but you did use wiki, see here it is again;
^ That shows Epirus but NO Albania what am I supposed to see exactly ? A Hellenic group was added to the topic starters wiki as being Albanian [sic], had you carefully read this obvious error you guy's would not be here looking ridicules .
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Jul 22, 2009 21:53:16 GMT -5
After carefully considering all of the sources listed in this thread it is safe to say that the whole of Epirus is Albanian and we should do everything to take it back.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 23, 2009 1:27:38 GMT -5
Translation of what i said after looking at the two maps:
Kto jan nga me te besuesme. Shqipetaret kan pase shumice neper jugun e Shqiperise, por jashte ksaj rajon shumica ishte Grek dhe Vleh (njeheshin si Grek). Edhe qe shume prej Shqiptaret te jugut ortodoks ndjenin veten si Grek. Janina skishte shume Shqiptare.
'These are among the most believable. Albanians had a majority in the south of Albania, however outside this region the majority was Greek and Vlach (who identified as Greek). And also among Albanians of the south, the Orthodox, felt themselves as "Greeks". Ioannina didnt have many Albanians.'
Look for the 1923 map.
And its not at all in agreement. The map shows mixed Albanian-Greek population near Sarande and Gjirokaster... Korca and other cities, however, are purely Albanian on it. Look at the Winnifrith map I posted in the first page for a more detailed analysis of the same results.
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Lib-Fier
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Post by Lib-Fier on Jul 23, 2009 2:52:49 GMT -5
i often found myself rolling my eyes reading Vicker's book, she approaches events from an interesting angle which pissed me off a lot of times because of the brutal honesty but above her personnal opinion i was interested in the written correspondence she had dug up, eye witness accounts and letters exchanged between diplomatic envoys at the time, that's the only real evidence we have of the times, its these tidbits of information that give you glimpse of what things were like back then,
i personally liked a note written by an european appointed observer in the disputed region of epirus which greeks claimed adamantly it was entirely greek populated, during the balcan wars, in a nutshell his account was that in every village they would go they'd hear a church bell ringing but no church then they later found out that greeks had put up bells up on trees and sound them off to create the illusion it was a greek village, the local inhabitants spoke albanian and they knew of no greeks for miles around.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 23, 2009 9:10:50 GMT -5
Interestingly, Turkish registers recorded an Albanian population in the territory of Dropull in the 1500s, suggesting that the Greek minority there is indeed a new element. Likewise, the area of Himare contained a very strong Albanian presence, with a high frequency of early Albanian variants of Christian names, like Gjon or Gjin (John), Pal (Paul), Kole (Nicholas) ... infact, these variants are seen at a higher frequency than in Vlore or Gjirokaster, where Byzantine influence resulted in a great (but not total) replacement of those variants with Greek-Orthodox variants, like Jani (from Ioannis) or Pavlo (from Pavlos) etc. Ironically, in Himare you have a minority of 'Greeks' today, but not in Vlore.
In the 1500s, Albanians were indeed an overwhelming minority in Northern Epirus as well as along the southern epirotian coast (Cameria or Thesprotia). The rest would've been predominantly Greek and Vlach ... though Albanians probably inhabited those places as well, even in Grevena, Macedonia and Thessaly (our presence in Kastoria and Florina is well recorded; Papa Kristo Negovani's village, Negovan, is in Grevena for instance, if I remember correctly).
How the situation looked like in the early Middle Age is more difficult to assess ... some historians, such as Hammond, are of the belief that the Albanians were restricted to Epirus Nova before the 1200s. I'm not so confident onomastic studies confirm this. The ancient link between Thyamis and Cameria has been established by linguists, as well as the fact that it's absent among the Greeks (who referr to it as Thesprotia). The transition from Arachtos to Arta is in the opinion of many more in accordance with the phonetic rules of Albanian than Greek. Finally the name of Vlorë (from ancient Avlón) contains the famous Tosk rhotacism ('n' becomes 'r', as in rërë from arena meaning "sand") which signalizes a very early stage of Albanian. Noteworthy in this regard is to remember that the Slavic loanwords in Albanian have not undergone the process of rhotacism, as opposed to Latin or ancient Greek loan words (like drapër from drapanon, meaning "sickle"), suggesting this process was finalized before the Slavic invasion in 600 AD (long before Hammond's estimate). The only possible exception is an old Slavic loan word for a shepherding winter quarter, but even so, it means that such a loan word entered at the very final stage of the process, long before the Albanians established political control in Epirus in the 1300s
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jul 23, 2009 9:39:58 GMT -5
Why Turks call Avlona, Avlonya...?...and not Vlora...if Albanians were the majority in this urban center? Thesprotia wasn't used in everyday speach...during byzantine times the area was called Vagenetia...and Thesprotia was only its ancient name that used in "atticists" writers in the post modern era... Find me one reference of that area called Chameria or Tsamouria or Camouria or what ever...before baba osman came here...the Thyamis thing is a paretymology... Turks call the muddy place çamur.... Arta?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jul 23, 2009 11:19:31 GMT -5
I think its because Ottoman Turkish has a strong Arabic influence and cannot begin a word with a consonent: Yskender Bey is Skander in Albanian for instance. Aplaton = Plato. Avlonya = Vlore. Uskudar = Shkoder.
And the only group that had majority in the urban center when the Turks took the city was the Italians. However, Im not even sure they made up the overall majority in the city. In Ulcin Albanians had two quarter, Italians one and Slavs one. Very possibly the same model was followed here.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jul 23, 2009 11:42:29 GMT -5
Maybe they learned the city name from the Greeks/Byzantines. Italians too say Valona, not Valora. It's the same with Shkodra; the Slavic form Skadar does not derive from the Albanian, rather both derive from Latin Scodra and have evolved individually in accordance with each language's phonetic rules.
The process of rhotacism was an early phenomenon, hence it's restricted to Latin and ancient Greek loan words only; Turkish and Slavic loan words have not been exposed to the process of rhotacism.
There is no written document since this form is only present in Albanian, and our language was only spoken (not written, as far as we know). So, you already know I won't be able to give you a medieval reference ... hence why the connection Thyamis = Camëria is an interesting one, since there seems to be no middle age Greek intermediary. And your Turkish explanation is the first time I hear of such an alternative ... if it's the correct one, I'd be surprised why linguists haven't noticed it earlier.
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