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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 14:39:14 GMT -5
Yes, but neither were its leaders willing to change their religious heritage? Naim Frasheri would never agree with modern Albanian nationalism and ideology.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 14:45:41 GMT -5
Btw, being Albanian also means accepting all the heritage that comes with it, and embracing it. In an effort to become more "European" today Albanians often try and downplay their heritage (like 400 yrs of being "Ottomans") in an effort to prove they are right for Europe. This even started with the Communists. This means that these people value Europeanness above ethnicity. Something all too characteristic within Catholic and Orthodox Albanians, who, if Europe didnt accept the Muslims tomorrow, would turn against them in a sec.
This is to undermine what makesup the Albanian land and people and what has influenced it.
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Post by insomniac on May 28, 2009 14:47:50 GMT -5
And who is asking you to change your religious heritage?
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Post by leshte on May 28, 2009 14:54:28 GMT -5
Time moves on, plus Naim wasn't the only Rilindas. You had Pashko Vasa also, Jeronim De Rada etc etc. Edhe Rilindasit nuk kane qene te nje feje te vetme, ajo qe i bashkonte ata ishte gjuha dhe etniciteti dhe per te ata luftuan dhe u persekutuan. Ajo na mban ne te lidhur jo feja. Me vone kishe Gjergj Fishten dhe Isa Boletinin, Ndre Mjeda dhe Hasan Prishtina. Njerezit tane te mencur kane luftuar per mbijetesen e kombit tone, jo te fese sone,dhe kurdo kur kemi punuar per fene kemi punuar se bashku qe sherbimet te jene ne shqip, qe fete te kene identitet shqiptar, jo Serb, jo Grek, jo Arab. Edhe te feja ajo qe na bashkon eshte deshira qe nje shqiptar te jete ne krye te tyre, qe cdo gje te behet ne shqip.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 14:54:54 GMT -5
Lets not kid ourselves here.
- Alfred Moisiu stating that "All Albanians are Christians, because we were so before the Ottomans" - Rexhepi quoting from an Oxford Christian census that counts more Christians than Muslims by factoring out most as "non-Believers", knowing very well that most Albanians, while non-practicing, still identify with their faith in a nominal sense. - Crosses popping up left and right on hills around Albania - Statues of Mother Theresa everywhere (even though she was not an Albanian figure, but rather a Catholic figure and her ethnic identity meant about as little to her as "European" identity to me).
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Post by leshte on May 28, 2009 15:02:36 GMT -5
Toskali we were all Christian before, everyone knows that. That's what Mojsiu said. He said nothing wrong. You know that too. But to most of us it doesn't matter. That's why people didn't make a fuss about it. Since it don't matter to us that's why most of us don't even know what Rexhepi says. If it was up to me I'd take down both crosses and mosques and churches. No more than 1 or 2 per city. Don't need any more since they are empty anyway. Nobody goes there. As for mother Teresa did a lot for the poor. The fact that our nation produces people like that should make everyone proud. Also who told you that she didn't care about ethnicity, or are you just assuming again. Also do not generalize, even though Europe has been unfair in the past to us, I and I bet many others see ourselves as Europeans. Just because you don't doesn't mean everyone thinks like you.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 15:09:21 GMT -5
I disagree... I was never a Christian. My father was never a Christian. His father was never a Christian. His father was never a Christian. His father was never a Christian. How far back should I go. Do we define with today or yesterday? Should I change my identity because 200 years back my family was kaur? As an Albanian from Epirus, being of Muslim heritage is what secured my identity and ethnicity. Had it not been for that, I might not be Albanian today... and the thought of that, as an Albanian, is horrifying to me.
There were plenty of starving Children in Albania. If she loved her nation so much, she would have changed her focus there. Nevermind all the controversy around her (her diaries spoke of doubt concerning her faith).
Face it, Mother Theresa is nothing more than a figure that Albs use to prop up their tie to Europe... It gives us an imagine that isnt pathetic and criminal. Thats why we cling to her. Insulting everything our ancestors have done while at it.
Like I said, people dont need to agree with me. Im simply the one who is proud to be Albanian, without kushtetute...
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on May 28, 2009 15:11:57 GMT -5
today Albanians often try and downplay their heritage (like 400 yrs of being "Ottomans") in an effort to prove they are right for Europe. This even started with the Communists. This means that these people value Europeanness above ethnicity. Something all too characteristic within Catholic and Orthodox Albanians, who, if Europe didnt accept the Muslims tomorrow, would turn against them in a sec. I think you're blowing this way out of proportions. I feel like your view is influenced by factors that have nothing to do with Albania per se (America's war on Islam). You grew up in the States where religion is in your face on a daily basis and shapes people's lives in ways that many of them are not even aware of. For most of us who grew up in Albania religion is a non-factor, although I can't speak for today's Albania. We are staunchly secular nationalists. And it wasn't just the Albanians who valued Europeanness but the Turks under Ataturk as well.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 15:16:10 GMT -5
Its not an issue because its not spoken of. But you will see in the future that it will play up. Especially as Europes fear of Muslims increases with immigration.
And its not spoken of because these views and ideas have taken common ground among people in Albania. There is a near-nigh universal misconception of Albania during the Ottoman Empire, during pre-Ottoman and regarding the rilindja. Albanian historiography does little to help that since most are still nationalists. Ofcourse this isnt a topic of concern since the majority of people just live their lives. Its rarely an issue for people, nor is it really for me. But here we are talking about it, so now its important.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 15:18:10 GMT -5
Also, I have to add, recent publications like Ben Blushi's work definitely show that this can become an issue for Albanians.
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Post by leshte on May 28, 2009 15:19:49 GMT -5
Well our Commie state didn't even allow her to visit the graves of her two sisters in Albania, what help do you expect, especially considering that religion was banned by law. Religious help was not wanted. She couldn't do anything with regards to that. When democracy opened you had her order of sisters open centers in Albania.
I don't get what you are implying with the insulting what our ancestors have done part. Also having given rise to such figure is an honour to our nation. We show that we are able to bear people that the whole world can benefit from, that we can bear people who's humanity and caring and giving is unmatched. There is nothing wrong with being proud to have such people among our ethnicity. On the contrary it makes most of us proud and honored. She is the best ambassador for our nation we could ask. She embodies all that is good and positive about us.
As to her having doubt about her belief, as someone who's not religious it doesn't matter. Its her deeds that matter not the religion. Even Jesus Christ had doubt about his belief. You are looking at this from the wrong aspect, the religious one. See it from the humane aspect. She stayed by the side of those that when you and me see them on TV we change channels because even though we don't like to admit it, we are disgusted by their appearance. See it from that not from the usual religious crap.
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on May 28, 2009 15:37:44 GMT -5
There is a near-nigh universal misconception of Albania during the Ottoman Empire, during pre-Ottoman and regarding the rilindja. Albanian historiography does little to help that since most are still nationalists. Ofcourse this isnt a topic of concern since the majority of people just live their lives. Its rarely an issue for people, nor is it really for me. But here we are talking about it, so now its important. As a Bektashi Albanian when I think of Ottoman Albania I think of Haxhi Qamili and his pathetic uprising with the motto "Dum Baben."
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Post by leshte on May 28, 2009 15:48:57 GMT -5
Exactly, cuz of the Ottomans our Renaissance was a couple of centuries too late. Darkest period in our history.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 28, 2009 15:58:27 GMT -5
Thats childish. The Renaissance occurred in territories that had developed strong traditions of scholarship and education for centuries. Territories like northern Italy, which had strong urban development, immense wealth and strong commercial links.
Albania had none of these. The cities and urban complexes were largely in the control of Italians in most cases (Durres) or Byzantine or Slavs. Albanians were something like Vlachs a few centuries ago... Mostly found in outside urban zones as a semi-nomadic people whose practices were entirely oral based (in fact, many Albanians shunned education as late as the 1900's, when the Ottomans were trying to do so forcefully).
To somehow expect that Albania would have had some massive enlightenment movement is ridiculous. Even if the process started in the 1400s (and mind you, without the Ottoman invasion, a central Albanian "regnum", was unthinkable) it wouldnt have reached any real significance until the 1700s, 1800s.
Albania gained a different kind of Renaissance. Read the history of Berat, where there were annual competitions of Bejtexhinje poets (Albanian in Arabic script), Elbasan, Gjirokaster, and other urban complexes that developed a rich culture and tradition. If you judge the Ottoman Empire by the last century, ofcourse it will look bad. It was impoverished, and rife with social and political problems. In the same sense, if we judge the Roman Empire purely by the 400s, it will look bleak and horrible, or the Byzantines by the 1400s...
Anything could have happened if the Ottomans hadnt conquered. That they did allows for wishful "what if's". To view history in this regard is wrong.
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Post by filomen on May 29, 2009 6:19:22 GMT -5
Donnie pergjigja ime eshte ajo cfare une shof ne Tirane, jetoj ne lagjen Tirana e Re perballe shkolles se meseme Petro Nini, kam ardhur ne itali me 2002 sa here qe iki ne shqiperi 2 muaj ne vit gati, nuk shof ato ndryshime qe raportet shkencore deklarojne, pastaj shqiperia vjen duke u permirsuar ajo dihet si ishim ne 1990 si ishim me 1998, si ishim me 2005 e keshtu me radhe, por ajo cfare une ne vetin time e ndjeva gjate ketyre 29 vjeteve te mi, eshte se Berisha me zhgenjeu jashzakonisht shume, une per veti nuk di cte them per raportet shkencore vec kujdes se edhe komuniste deklaronin " ne per 45 vjet bem ket e bem ket" po sikur luften civile ta kishte fituar Balli, nuk do ti bente ato gjera dmth elektrifikim rruge shkollim etje, cfar dua te them eshte mos bie pre e mentalitetit komunist "ishim ne qe u bene gjerat" se te dyja figurat e politikes 20 vjecare Nano e Berisha e treguan kush ishin. pershendetje PS. statistikat shkencore jane si ajo puna e deklarates se Lulzim Bashes qe thote se Shqipria do hyj pa visa ne Europ kurse Brukseli jep pergjigje pozitive vetem per Maqedonin Malin e Zi e Serbin. Pershendetje. pershendetje.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on May 29, 2009 7:16:09 GMT -5
Donnie to tell you the truth I didn't expect that comment from you. We don't want Rama to win because we wanna badmouth Berisha. First of all if you lived in Tirana prior to when Rama became mayor and after, the differences are huge. Those who have been away from Albania can't comprehend that. Rama's style of governing is copied now from both PD and PS mayors all over the country. He was given the prize the best mayor in the world 3-4 years ago. Now when you see these achievements you have to keep in mind how they were achieved. When PS was in charge he had Fatos Nano the prime minister against him ( no funds for the city from the govt.) because Rama wanted to head the PS party. When PD came to power he had Sali Berisha aginst him (no funds to the city because when elections came anything the mayor did he could use it for the electoral campaign, that's Sali's logic). Now let me talk about all the criminals who he destroyed the buildings that had no permits and deeds to build roads, plant trees, build parks. The reason why I said what I said is because indeed most of the arguments I've seen concerning Rama and PS revolve around how bad Sali Berisha is, disregarding the many successes of PD in governing the country these four years. I am not protecting Berisha, because as I said, the best would've been if he'd withdrawn from politics altogether after the disaster of 1997. But this doesn't take away PD's late achievements. That is what I am trying to convey. E sa i perket vitit 1997, huligane ka pasur ne te dy anet, pra edhe ithtar te socializmit kane bere krime, plackitur arme te ushtrise e keshtu me rradhe.
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Post by ilirdardani on May 29, 2009 9:50:29 GMT -5
I watch the debates pretty much every day between PS and PD (and other parties but lets stick to these two) and on PS side, you never hear about their program, or how they would do things better than PD has managed the country, all you hear is, about Gerdec, Berisha, his family, more of his family, Berisha again, and 97. It's 2009 now, country is in NATO, just started the process for entering EU, jumping up on all the lists which Berisha doesn't control, every major leader has said that Albania has moved so fast towards the West that they should be an inspiration for other smaller countries that too aspire becoming Western and democratic.......all of these during Berisha's watch. Say what you want about him, dude knows how to take the country ahead and I want 4 more years of his govt, then after that he can retire and leave it up to Topi, Basha, Topalli, etc.
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on May 29, 2009 9:56:52 GMT -5
I watch the debates pretty much every day between PS and PD (and other parties but lets stick to these two) and on PS side, you never hear about their program, or how they would do things better than PD has managed the country, all you hear is, about Gerdec, Berisha, his family, more of his family, Berisha again, and 97. It's 2009 now, country is in NATO, just started the process for entering EU, jumping up on all the lists which Berisha doesn't control, every major leader has said that Albania has moved so fast towards the West that they should be an inspiration for other smaller countries that too aspire becoming Western and democratic.......all of these during Berisha's watch. Say what you want about him, dude knows how to take the country ahead and I want 4 more years of his govt, then after that he can retire and leave it up to Topi, Basha, Topalli, etc. I see, under your view we should be looking at 40 years of PD rule. That is the path to success? Please remove your blue colored glasses before you speak.
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Post by unitedbalkans on May 29, 2009 17:46:33 GMT -5
Donnie to tell you the truth I didn't expect that comment from you. We don't want Rama to win because we wanna badmouth Berisha. First of all if you lived in Tirana prior to when Rama became mayor and after, the differences are huge. Those who have been away from Albania can't comprehend that. Rama's style of governing is copied now from both PD and PS mayors all over the country. He was given the prize the best mayor in the world 3-4 years ago. Now when you see these achievements you have to keep in mind how they were achieved. When PS was in charge he had Fatos Nano the prime minister against him ( no funds for the city from the govt.) because Rama wanted to head the PS party. When PD came to power he had Sali Berisha aginst him (no funds to the city because when elections came anything the mayor did he could use it for the electoral campaign, that's Sali's logic). Now let me talk about all the criminals who he destroyed the buildings that had no permits and deeds to build roads, plant trees, build parks. The reason why I said what I said is because indeed most of the arguments I've seen concerning Rama and PS revolve around how bad Sali Berisha is, disregarding the many successes of PD in governing the country these four years. I am not protecting Berisha, because as I said, the best would've been if he'd withdrawn from politics altogether after the disaster of 1997. But this doesn't take away PD's late achievements. That is what I am trying to convey. E sa i perket vitit 1997, huligane ka pasur ne te dy anet, pra edhe ithtar te socializmit kane bere krime, plackitur arme te ushtrise e keshtu me rradhe. You really think that the latest economic achievements are due to Berisha? The advancement in the economy, reduced poverty and increased welfare for the people are due to increased interdependence with Albania and other nations, the rising independence of the Albanian people, increased remittances and wages which in turn lead to increased consumption and savings (slowing down due to financial economic crisis). Some of these attributes can also be dedicated to the Albanian central bank which has been quite independent from the state thus having no gov't involvement to hinder the central banks credible monetary policy. I would assume Berisha actually hindered some of the economic progress through ineffective fiscal policy. All these coupled with increased investments in the construction industry due to more economic freedom, pre-entry/entry into NATO, increased tourism and so on and so forth has led to Albania having quite a few good years of economic recovery after the mess in 1997 caused by the very same face who is reaping in the benefits that do no belong to his government. Any gov't in power during this time would have been viewed in a positive manner due to increased peoples expectations of economic recovery. This victory does not belong to the gov't but to the people, however the people are to blind to see that even though the outside eye sees recovery from the Berisha gov't, the inside tells you a much different story.
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Post by leshte on May 29, 2009 18:38:01 GMT -5
Doni ka pasur huligane e kriminele nga te dyja anet. Ka akoma. Kete nuk e mohon njeri. Mjafton te shikosh Gerdecin te shohesh se keta ekzistojne. Apo edhe matrapazlleqet ne kohen kur Nano ishte kryeminister. Thelbi i asaj qe po thosha une qendron ne faktin se une nje nxenes i thjeshte kam shpetuar kot pa vdekur ne qender te Tiranes sepse Sali Berisha i drejtoi huliganet e tij te armatosur drejt kryeministrise gjate dites se varrimit te Azemit. Si une kishte me qindra njerez ate dite qe kishin dale per qef. Vetem ky fak e diskualifikon ate per te qene lider i nje kombi te tere. I gatshem te rrezikoje jeten e njerezve te pafajshem per te marre pushtetin. Keto gjera njerez si Iliridiani apo edhe te tjere nuk kane qef ti permendin. Le te kalojme te Remzi Hoxha. A e di ti pse ai eshte vrare nga SHIK? Sepse dispononte kasete filmike te Sali Berishes duke bere pazarlleqe me Milosevic-in, duke u takuar te dy bashke. A e di ti se shoku i ti u vra gjithashtu gjate ketij viti. A e di ti se deshmimtari kryesor per gjyqin kunder SHIK u vra gjate ketij viti. A ke lexuar gje per armiqsine e Berishes me Familjen Haklaj ne Tropoje dhe se as edhe nje nga ata vellezer nuk eshte me gjalle sot, te gjithe jane te vrare. Ne Shqiperi ne kemi njerez shume here me te mire, ne PD ka njerez shume here me te mire. Ne meritojme shume here me shume. Perse duhet qe nje njeri i qe ka shkaktuar kaq kaos, zhdukjen dhe vrasjen e personave te na udheheqi? Le te mos flasim fare per miliona dollaret qe ka e bija dhe i biri apo monopolin e ilaceve ne shqiperi qe e ka e shoqja. A e di ti se edhe sot e kesaj dite PD braktiset nga ata qe e kane themeluar ate. Mua me duket verte alarmuese kur ikin njerez si Ngjela dhe Besnik Mustafaj. Njerez qe sfiduan komunizmin per te themeluar PD-ne. Dicka nuk shkon. Kur edhe Meksi, ish kryeminister, dikur aleati me i madh i Saliut e quan PD diktature. Si ka mundesi qe ne gjithe keto vite PD ka patur vetem nje krytear, qe nga 91 deri ne 2009. Te vetmit si ai jane Skender Gjinushi dhe Lufter Xhuveli. Si sala edhe ata kane qene zyrtare na aparatin komunist.
Tani per NATO-n. Nuk eshte merite e vetme e Berishes. Qeverite te PS dhe te PD kane punuar per vite te tera me NATO-n. Gjithashtu NATO nuk do qe ballkani te jete nen influencen e Rusise. Edhe Enverin po te kishim ne krye ne do te ishim ne NATO, mjafton qe ai te shprehte deshiren, madje po ta kishte hapur gojen ai kur lame traktatin e Varshaves do ishim ne NATO qe ne vitet 60. Rruget- borxhi i jashtem i Shqiperise per te ndertuar rruget ka arritur sa 50% e GDP. E di sa leke dergojne emigrantet ne vit ne Shqiperi? 50% te GDP. Per Kosoven- Ministri yne i jashtem eshte i paafte. me thuaj nje vend qe Shqiperia i ka mbushur mendjen te njohe Kosoven. Asnje. Shkon Bexhet Pacolli me 3 veta per nje jave dhe ja mbush mendjen.
Ajo qe dua te them eshte kjo. Ne nje ane ke Edi Ramen qe eshte nje nga krijuesit e PD dhe nje nga lideret e levizjes studentore qe rrezoi komunizmin. Nje njeri qe e ka transformuar kryeqytetin teresisht ne pak vite pune. Nje njeri qe per punen e tij eshte nderuar me cimime prestigjoze nderkombetare. Nga ana tjeter ke nje njeri qe per 20 vjet nuk e leshon kolltukun, qe megjithese mund te kete bere dicka gjate 20 vjet pushtet eshte i perfshire ne kaos, korrupsion dhe krim. Ne nje si ai e kishim per 40 vjet me radhe dhe e hoqem, Enver e kishte emrin. Edhe Enveri beri ca arritje, e coi ne 0 analfabetizmin, e elektrifikoi vendin, i beri njerezit me shtepi, dhe i beri me shkolle te lare. Megjithate keto arritje s'do te thote se Enveri ihte zgjidhja e duhur. Edhe Sala tani po na behet si Enveri. Ka erdhur momenti ta heqim.
Iliridian lexoje pak programin e PD-se qe prezantoi ne parlament kur erdhi ne pushtet. As edhe 1/4 e nje faqe letre nuk zinte, sikur e kishin shkruajtur ne ndonje cope napkin. Hiqi pak syzet blu.
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