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Post by yahadj on Jan 22, 2008 3:36:40 GMT -5
Well, you seem to believe that science never contrdicts itself. Probably you are not in science that much. Don't have to. But may be your teachers had to gave you some basics on scientific methods. Especially since science is the base of your life philosophy, you should have investigated it better. Mostly science explores the nature by disproof, by ruling out possibilities (null hypothesis sounds familiar?). But yet doesn't claim its conclusions with 100% certainty. It has its SD and statsictical error percentages. And always needs to be refutable in order to hold the label of scientific. Non-refutable things like God is out of the scope of science. Thus doesn't have anything to claim on that respect. But you seem convinced by some evidence unknown to scientific circles. You have to share those proofs so many people don't be confused! Apparently this is of no concern to you. Since, you are simply a worshipper of science (a position would of course be rejected by the science itself). Science tries to formulate the scheme of the nature - its laws, principles and events. Nature was present in its mighty form long before science even started crawling. We started exploring it first with our senses. Later we realizied that there are other things we are not able to observe with simply our God given senses- ultraviolet or infrared light. Then radiowaves, radiation. Microorganisms, distant nebulaes, black holes. For those things we had to build special devices. As we made probably only a step in to vast knowldge and mistery of the Universe we got haunted by our megalomania and started claiming supremacy. How foolish and immature, isn't it? We need to be more humble and as we explore we should be more and more careful about our conclusions. Because only ignorant and arrogant produce fast conclusions. Science can't even predict how would an atom behave in certain conditions- like a particle or wave (quantum physics!). The atom can simply choose to behave either way in totaly same conditions. Wow, even atoms have a freedom of choice. And in macro view, reality around us is probably nothing else but that whatever we choose to see. For some of us things may be distored as the waves in the sea, for others everything might look very clear cut, as the particles themselves. Each choice has its own implications. Conscious choice is what matters. Science is not the meaning of our lifes. It helps us to make it more comfortable. It is a mean, a tool, a chance for us to utilize it for the benefit of all people. It is one good mean to achieve the great goal- to understand our universe - the creation of Allah and aknowledge the the greatness of its harmony- which is the greatness of its Creator. Science is not a belief or philosophy. Doesn't give you guidence in moral values. It is able to help us design good cars, which however still need to be driven by good drivers. Can design powerful nuclear bombs which can easily destroy our planet unless is operated by wise men with high moral, not by some experiment minded freaks who would just like to see 'what happens if...' just for the sake of curiousity. Take care, dude... There is more than science. Consider that!
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Post by yahadj on Jan 22, 2008 3:58:14 GMT -5
Great. Some bacteria and viruses were "modified" (not created totally out of nothing!) in some labs by the intervention of whom? Somebody! In this case humans. Don't tell me it is natural process. We call that genetic manipulation - an artificial intervention by humans. And after all it is only modification not creation. But who has been doing the creation in the nature? Humans? Monkeys? Who? ;D
I have my answer: the Almighty Allah's lab is out there. It created everything out of nothing and since then repeats creation. I gave you the corresponding verses in Quran. It is not my claim.
Kuran says different things about the 6 days- it is apparent that our understanding of terrestial days (24 hours - one turn of the Earth around its axis) and the days referred by Allah (is a divine day defined by the turn of the Earth or some other measure) might be totally different things. In a different verse Allah clarifies that his measure of a day and our measure of day are different. 1000 to 1. In this case the divine day is not equivalent to the terrestial day. Another verse states only 6 periods. What type of days can he be referring to us if there was not the Earth and Solar system present preceeding that creation. Some other planetary or stellar system? What do we know. Obviously his own definition of time.
Basically those kind of small insignificant things only deviate the weak and labile persons. For people with strong belief there is not a single bit of suspicion about the creation of Almighty Allah.
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Post by constantinious on Jan 22, 2008 10:03:10 GMT -5
First, that is kind of*god of the Gaps argument. "We don't understand X, therefore God created X." Before science, this included just about everything...like why the sun rises in the morning (thanks Apollo, Ra, etc.) So each time science figures something out, that God of the Gaps gets smaller.
A scientist are near in creation of simple organisms out of non living material . Scientist have created viruses, but they are not generally thought to be really alive. Craig Ventner's group is working on extracting the DNA from a bacterium and replacing it with artificial DNA, and thus producing a new bacterium. So far, that's the closest science has come to creating life. They can synthesize organic molecules though, but they have yet to make them into something as simple as a bacterium they manage to partition though , proto organism to independent organism . your argument of species creation out of the window.
as for Allah. that is a rediculous argument. baptizing your ignorance allah makes it no different than ignorance. you don't know ,you have no evidence for that,boo...... other for your believe in a tooth fairy called allah, you have yet not present any evidence or slight indications of his existence... sorry mate, when you die you die.
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Post by constantinious on Jan 22, 2008 10:07:34 GMT -5
not only ignorant of science, as any religious person is, but also ignorant of your holy book. quran specify how long are the "divine" days. and i have news for you. they don't match the scientific age of evolution. you better start reading...
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Post by jerryspringer on Jan 22, 2008 10:11:39 GMT -5
Hey, constantinious, Yahac has been cool with you, but you're not so cool with him. That's not fair play.
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Post by depletedreasons on Jan 22, 2008 15:20:58 GMT -5
Anittas is right.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jan 22, 2008 21:08:25 GMT -5
Hey, constantinious, Yahac has been cool with you, but you're not so cool with him. That's not fair play. Of course! What do u expect? He's an atheist.
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Post by yahadj on Jan 22, 2008 22:27:49 GMT -5
Well, again you seem not to understand the term "creation" right. Scientist copy the laws of nature in order to modify the genome of some living organisims. Is that a creation? That is not creation it is only manipulation. Simple act of "copy and paste". Kind of cheating...
They can produce DNA -it is only one molecule. Are they able to create mytochondia, cytoplasmic reticulum. No! They are able to produce amino acids and proteins- but humans were able to do that since day one- remember your mom's breast milk? However scientists still can't even create a "simple" cellular membrane. With its all phospholipids in double layer, all nexuses, receptors, signaling systems and ion channels. Are they able to create the phospatase kinase, ATP'ase, energy cascades inside the cell? Embed the Crebb's cycle? Are they able to design reseptors and intracellular signaling systems, new ones, just the prototypes of their own kind? Of cource not!
Let's not even go on higher level organisms. We are only a bunch of "copy paste" cheaters and we need to aknowledge that and know our place. Rather than claiming any supremacy to the Almighty creator. If you really want to prove yourself just create a new cell with totaly different structure than we know and make it sustain its life and reproduce. Then you'll have my hand!
But till then, you can only fool some ignorant folk, but not the truth seekers. The real meaning of life is not science. And things are not so simple as you wish. You say:"We die and that's it!" Is it really? You didn't even know if you were coming to life on the first place until you found yourself on the hands of your mother. But you seem to know what is afterlife for sure! And your reference is what? Science? Really?
Science is like a camera taking pictures of the nature. And with each day the camera design gets more advanced and that produces of course better pictures of the material life. But even after that, it doesn't create new rules in the game. It utilizes whatever is out there already, but unknown to us till very recently. It tries to reflect the nature in its correct form to us as much as it can. Mostly we don't like to see the camera in our pictures. Simply because it ruins the pictures. It is not exciting. Too boring. Too artificial.
You may like your machine too much too, but after all, still it is the objects or the subjects of the nature itself which are the real piece of art that we enjoy once the pictures end inside the photo album. If you created the camera and it is really good one, well then you have something to be proud of. But that is all. But sorry, you don't get any credit for the nature which was out there long before you had your black and white camera designed. May be the first place you reflected it on was the walls of those ancient caves.
And if someday, somebody with a camera in his hand comes and says that he is can create that nature, too. And as a proof for that he shows you those nice color pictures? Are you going to blindly belive him?? You could have found many ignorant people only some 100 years ago to believe in that, since they wouldn't have seen a camera in their lifes, but in nowdays this is totally out of question. That is how your claims look to me.
I just say chill out and try to be wiser. Just look at the universe. You will witness the perfect order out there. You didn't have anything to do with all of that. In fact you were not even able to see in color all of those nice galaxies until Hubble started sending us some really cool pics just recently. And yet we can easily get arrogant and bold enough to minimize the glory of that creation and start claiming humans as creators of something.
Sorry, dude nobody buys that. That only happens in fairy tales. Wake up and come to the true life. Don't insist on remaining near sighted. I am pretty sure you would be able to see the broader picture by yourself if you only give it a try.
But who am I to tell you what is right or wrong. You won't change your views untill you see the things right by yourself. And may Allah lifts the curtains over your heart and mind.
Sorry dude, still not convinced by your Las Vegas evolution. Keep "playing"=gambling, but don't forget it is the house that always wins... ;D
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Post by constantinious on Jan 23, 2008 5:59:05 GMT -5
scientist are creating life as we speak.on it very basical level.i guess the god of gaps finally hit the brick wall....... god of gaps again..... ----------- what all this have to do with anything....... are you insane? god of the gaps yet once again... all those were part of billions years of evolution,geneticist science is just 20 years old..... stop pumping out of your head irrelevant notions... deist propose 2 arguments:(not you ,serious deist debaters....) -can human extract part of an nano organism and create a separate functioning organism ?(so to justify that intelligent design doesn't exist,and evolution was indeed the reason for their complexity) -can humans compose neutral materials to form living organism... (to show life doesn't need a divine hand to get kick start) to both the answer is yes...... sorry mate take out the garbages and also through allah to the garbage pint.. god of the gaps again i don't. you claim you do..... proves then sonny: A B C D E i waiting to be persuaded.. boo,let the poetry alone. arguments please and evidences...... not rhetorics and empty slogans....... proofs: A B C D E ........ expose to us god nor do a camel rider who claims earth is flat, part of the revelations given to him by his imaginary friend Allah.. And yet we can easily get arrogant and bold enough to minimize the glory of evolution and start claiming human Mohamed imaginary friend ,Allah as creators of anything. well boo,you obviously wont.but exposing the ridiculous argumentative of deists will open the eyes of others... you see your culture,thats about all there is to Islam= cultural influence, forbids you from opening your eyes...... if you innuendo your grandmother that it is socially healthy to go out to a bar and have sex with a total stranger in one night stand,she would probably disheritage you for life..... never the less her grand daughter does it..... different culture, different educational background ,different social circumstances make people more recipient to truth.... look at turks in internet, a higher educated than average.most of them are agnogist , may of them are atheist, a lot just deists and only a mini scale minority are religious...... remember boo, evolution is not only a genetically process.its also a social one..
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Post by yahadj on Jan 23, 2008 10:09:47 GMT -5
Am I insane? No I don't think so. Living cell is not only one molecule, it is a whole system. If you don't know anything about its structure do some research. And you will understand that puting a new DNA inside a preexistent cell with all its orgnels remaining intact is not creating. And give us some reference about your highly successful human generated mutant cells. That DNA that you will transplant has to carry all of the gene necessary for the maintenance of the remaining organels which are mostly some proteins, glycoproteins and phospholipids. So far what we have accomplished is to use plasmids to insert some genes at the top of the preexistent DNA so that we can indice production of some new proteins. Well, yeah you can increase the amount of certain proteins by that way. But you can't touch the essential DNA sequences. In order living organism to be able to survive (live, function) it needs to maintain the energy production, to produce and repair constantly the essential enzymes, structure proteins, glycoproteins and replace the dysfunctional ones. Then after all of that, it has to be able to reproduce. And how is that possible? Because all the required codes for the production of the entire cell constituents are encripted in the DNA. By whom? Not by humans and not by your Las Vegas evolution of chance. By the intelligent designer - I call it Allah. Say you removed the original DNA of a cell and put new DNA with new codes on it. Is that going to work. It would if encodes all the required constituents of that cell so then it can reproduce. Well let say it encodes all of those. What do you think you will find when you investigate the sequence of that new DNA? The same combinations of A,C,G and T bases in triple codes that you will have in the original DNA. Because certain proteins can only be encoded by particular genes which is ceratin combination of triplets of A,C,G and T. So if you loose the key and you have the lock and you want to open it, either you have to produce a key similar to the original or get totally a new lock with a new key. Dopesn't work other way. Unless you want brake the door. But that is destruction not creation. Well, what the science is doing is not replacement of the lock but regenerating the key which life sustaining codes can't be that much different from the original. Otherwise you might be able to keep that cell alive only for a some short time but you won't be able to have successful multiplication. So again we are doing "copy paste" of what the Allah already created before us. And tell me more about evolution. What drives the urge for the "fittest to survive"? What is behind it, the driving force? And does it explain the existence of some very simple organisms? Why do we need to keep living and repoduce if we have to die and convert into a non-living matter? Are the all living organisms in deep deception? Are we deceiving our selves? Is that pulling oars against the current? Is tha smart thing to do? Why evolution make sense? What is the phylosophocal justification behind that? And what physosphical setting is evolution commanding man? Since everything is evolutuon I guess it has to command our way of thinking and acting, right? What does evolution gives you to justify the way of your life? Does evlolution has moral values? Seeing some fossils doesn't make me think I emerged form them? Why that makes some other people be comfortable with that thought? Because some scientist say? Darwin said? Where is he now? Did he know what is behind life? If I have a scrpture that tells me the whole story why I wouldn't belive it? Because it was give some 1400 years ago? Not enough to discredit it? You don'y discredit the scripture of your life - the software of your cells - the DNA that you had since day one, some million years ago. Why I would discredit something that desribes the principles of life and after life and still makes sense. What is 1400 years to discredit the truth...
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Post by yahadj on Jan 23, 2008 10:43:20 GMT -5
The truth is? What? The humans are the same no matter what their race and nationality is. Well that is what the rest of the world had to figure out for millenia. But Islam expained it to you some 1400 years ago.
And that makes that granddaughter superior to her grandmother. Is that a great advancement? It looks more like we went back in your evolution! We are closer to animals, now. Well, no problem the nature has its own ways to deal with that. STD's and cervical cancers... Single mothers, orphans. What an advancement what a great level of evolution for humans. Humans lost their way in "the evolution" by the "evolution"!!! Obviously they seem to behave against the laws of evolution. The materialism brought the low (negative) birth rates to WEST. It will exterminate itself in a few centuries. What you going to do? It is the "evolution" at work!!!
Dude, not in my scripture. Educate yourself. There is not clear statement regarding Earth itself but for the Sun and Moon there is:
"SURAH 36, AYAT 40: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
"SURAH 21, AYAH 33: And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit."
And after all Qur'an is not a science book. It is scipture to guide you through your life. Defines your moral values, the good and bad. By science man finds better explanation of the material world. The spiritual is the scope of scriptures.
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Post by constantinious on Jan 23, 2008 11:19:02 GMT -5
-----------------------
B inteligent design: a) your proposition doesn't exclude evolution.creationism of Islam, as you should know ,is creationism of all things on its present form.from humans to dragon flies to palm trees etc.all the fossil evidence demonstrate the exact opposite.humans fossil history demonstrates ten different at least intelligent humanoid species.many of them with interchangeable genes capacity . b)divine designer: -no evidence -no factual proof -no scientific propositions or hypothesis your believe in something doesnt constitute anything else than fiction and personal conviction.that said ,bares no importance to science,anthropology,cosmology,biology or any other of the natural sciences. c)evolution isn't really debatable.its factual science.there are enough fossil fuels not only to trace our ancestors but to pint point the time spam of presences as separate species.insisting on a theology of the gaps , ultimately makes the religious mortality accelerate. every time a theologian proposes another ludicrous proposition rationalizing it based on the existing gaps of science, its a future reference for combating religion.
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Post by constantinious on Jan 23, 2008 11:41:19 GMT -5
---------------------------------- Quran-22:47: Verily a day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousand years of your rekoning Quran-70:4: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousand years. quran: cosmology creation 6000 years to 300 000 years. science kosmos: 14 billion years old by latest estimations. earth age based on science:4.5 billion years.
"earthology" in quran: Quran-36:40: “It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.” (This they clearly meant for the Sun and Moon only). Quran36:39 :And for the moon We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.
Quran-37:6-8: We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.
Quran 31:10:He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky, and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.
Quran-39:5: “He created the heavens and the earth (in true proportions) ; He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night; He has subjected The Sun and Moon (to his law); each one follows a course for a time appointed.”
Quran-15:19: And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;
Quran-78: 6-7: Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs
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Post by constantinious on Jan 23, 2008 11:45:29 GMT -5
maybe you should master plan the extermination of all the teen generation of turkey,and half the young women in Istanbul and Izmir, cause i was referring to turkey..
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Post by constantinious on Jan 23, 2008 11:48:45 GMT -5
a good psychologist will explain to you the necessity of healthy sexual experiences. meanwhile you can wear the hijap if you like it so much,last time was in turkey i was glad to see so many millions of healthy young people rejecting the suffocating blunder of religious pious.
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Post by yahadj on Jan 24, 2008 0:10:24 GMT -5
maybe you should master plan the extermination of all the teen generation of turkey,and half the young women in Istanbul and Izmir, cause i was referring to turkey.. Why? It was the materiallst fascist ideologies trying to exterminate people with certain chracteristics that they disliked. Islam is not about forcing people. Don't give examples of some opreesive "muslim" countries. It is obvious that they have real problem with understanding and applying Islam into real life. Basically it is ignorance about Islam. It is mostly their bad traditions. For humans this life is a chance to choose your path, your way of life and accept responsibilities and consequences of made decisions. This is your life and every single person would be responsible for himself/herself only. Sins are non-transferable. If you do them you are stuck with them unless you make something about it and drive lessons out of them and you don't repeat them. So, opressing other people for your own comfort is not Islam. It may be anything else but not Islam. However, somebody who refers himself as a Muslim would definately try to comply with the rules of Allah imposed in Kur'an. Not by force, but voluntarily. As much as he/she can. You will get in return as much as you give. So the benefactor is the individual itself. So he or she decides how much to invest on the afterlife market. Those who are non- Muslims are not in the scope of Islam as long as they live in peace with Muslims. But if attacked, Muslims have all the rights to defend themselves and their families until the justice and peace is restored. The same regarding thr moral values. Those who are in one night relationships are responsible for themselves. We see it as a sad event. Somebody is wasting his or her precious life. It is a pity. But we can't do anything about it. We can only try to protect and educate our own kids and advice our relatives. That is all.
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Post by yahadj on Jan 24, 2008 0:22:38 GMT -5
a good psychologist will explain to you the necessity of healthy sexual experiences. meanwhile you can wear the hijap if you like it so much,last time was in turkey i was glad to see so many millions of healthy young people rejecting the suffocating blunder of religious pious. What a coincidence. My wife is one. Psychology is nothing but social manipulation tool of our modern times. Basically they took the place of the priests. Now they can forgive all of your sins and blame it on your childhood experince with some immoral relatives or neighbors. Just kidding!!! It might be true in many occasions. So the travma of immorality is not a joke. It is not psychology to decide what is moral and what not. Psychology would help you define some personality and behavioral problems but most of the time you can't do much about it since your social and economical background is behind the most of the problems and you can't change that in a day. It is the modern life lonliness and the limited social communication in the busy schedules of the modern life that aggravate things. And since the majority of people lack spirituality there is no reconciliation with the accumulated emotional stress. Then no other option left but to crack your head. Psychology can help in many areas but seems that family therapy and improvement of social conditions of the person does the majority of the work. So again it is the lack of spirituality, disruption of the families and the moral values that drives us down the hill. What can the poor psychologist do except aknowledging that and help you to face those problems and encourage you to change them?
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