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Post by dusko1 on Jan 4, 2010 13:39:30 GMT -5
Check out what this Dane said about Balkan people & nations. ----- Danish leader hits raw nerve - 12/05/2009 Balkan people 'less intelligent'
By Sarah Elzas, RFI exclusive
South-eastern Europeans are not as intelligent as their northern counterparts and should not be allowed to decide Europe's future, a leading MEP has claimed.
Mogens Camre, deputy leader of the Europe of the Nations group in the European Parliament, whose People's Party is part of Denmark's ruling coalition, says that since Romanians and Bulgarians have not created healthy societies themselves, they should not have a say over countries that were "more healthy and viable".
"When I look at the voting rules, I see that countries like Romania and Bulgaria have many more votes than Denmark and Sweden and Finland, and I think - honestly speaking - that we are more clever than they are," he told RFI.
"We (in western and northern Europe) have much more transparency, democracy, and social welfare. And we don't think that people who did not create healthy societies should decide for us. Countries which we consider old-fashioned, anti-reform, in many cases directly reactionary, have so much influence in Europe."
Camre is part of the conservative Danish People's Party, part of the governing coalition in Copenhagen, and his concerns reflect a growing cultural divide opening between the smaller, richer countries of northern Europe who fear losing their clout to the large populations of the new eastern and Balkans members.
They are the latest political manifestation of what is called the Eurovision Factor, in which countries who were at the core of old Europe accuse the new arrivals from the Mediterranean and the East of dragging down standards.
When the new European parliament sits again after June's elections, Denmark will lose one of its 14 seats, and Romania and Bulgaria will have 50 seats between them. With a combined population of nearly 30 million people, they will dwarf Denmark's meagre 5.5 million in numbers as well as influence. This loss worries MEPs such as Camre, who also considers the growth of the EU a threat to national cultures.
"The French are different from the Danes, Danes are different from Greeks, and Portuguese are different from Finnish people," he says, adding in the same thought that open borders bring a rise in crime.
Denmark, like Germany, still refuses to open its borders fully to workers from new members states. "Today you have criminals from all of Europe who are travelling across Europe," Camre's says. "They can be in France one day and be in Denmark 12 hours later ... and it's impossible for the citizens to feel safe."
But Romanian MEP Renate Weber dismisses Camre's comments as "childish" and superficial. "I don't think that Scandinavians are more intelligent and clever than any others. It is true that they do have a welfare state, and they have a long-functioning democracy.
"The truth is that they are in many respects doing better than many European member states, not only Romania and Bulgaria."
Weber says Europe has to deal with the political and cultural divide. "Not only the difference between south and north, which is a reality ... But more specific: it is a difference between countries who came out of the communist regime two decades ago," she said, adding that countries like hers have a lot to learn.
"You still need time to understand better what entrepreneurship is, what taking responsibility is. The idea that liberty comes with responsibility: that's the most important thing that our political culture still does not properly understand or does not show."
Weber says the EU is the mechanism through which her country and other post-communist member states will be exposed to different ways of running their governments. But for Mogens Camre, that's exactly the problem.
"We want a Europe of the fatherlands," he said. "We believe that democracy can only exist in the nation ... and today what you see is that the decisions are made over France by people who have never been in France, and people who have never been in Denmark, make decisions over Denmark. And it will, in the end, destroy democracy."
Camre, who will not be standing in June, has caused controversy before when, at the height of Muslim anger over the cartoons of the Prophet published in Denmark, he accused Islamists of infiltrating Europe "where they wait to be many enough to have us removed". europeanelections2009.rfi.fr/content/20090512-balkan-people-less-intelligent-Bulgaria-Romania-Europe-Denmark
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 4, 2010 17:01:06 GMT -5
some comments ----- 2C 12/05/2009
I’m a 28 years old Romanian who has, until now, traveled in more than 35 countries of the planet, on 5 continents, from Asia to America, from Northern Europe to South Africa, crossing 3 Oceans and meeting thousands of peoples with different social as well as cultural backgrounds.
All i can say, Mr. Mogens Camre is that i never thought i would hear, in 2009 such an obtuse and narrow minded perspective over a part of Europe which had suffered so much under the communism. When the Danish people were enjoying the comfort of democracy, hundreds of teachers were thrown to jail in my country, and starved to death for believing in the ideas that sustained the birth and consolidation of freedom. It’s easy to talk when you have absolutely no idea of the atrocities that were committed during that era. You cannot know that by watching the television, can you? Maybe you can imagine that horrors applied to your countrymen. Maybe then you would understand the sacrifices we had to endure as a nation, a proud European nation today.
Dear Mr. Morgens Camre, i was 8 years old when the walls of communism fell in my country. My parents had to borrow money to buy food for me and my sister, during the last and darkest years of the regime. That hasn’t kept me from receiving a good education, from learning 4 foreign languages- English, German, French and Spanish except my native one.
Joining the European Union came along with the exponential rise of prices in all commodities, the lowering of the standard of living in an already weakened country.
You add to that the corrupt political system and the huge fight against the old mentality, and you can get an idea of how "comfortable" really is to survive in here. And for what? What is the finality?
Why did we invest our time, energy and resources for something that slowly drains out our own lives? I want to think the answer is the change that came along with the French revolution: liberte, egalite, fraternite.(i.e. freedom, equality, fraternity). I want to believe those values still live on.
Best regards ----- Mogens Camre MEP
- 12/05/2009
I have actually never expressed a word about the intelligence of Romanians. I have never been asked about that topic or any other similar topic.
I have certainly said that Romania is corrupted and backwards compared to Western Europe. That is what all of the European Parliament says. I suggest that you read the latest report on discharge to the EU Commission in which the European Parliament states that the entry of Romania and Bulgaria was based on incorrect, positive evaluations made by the Commission.
I have also said that we are much more clever in establishing a healthy and viable society than Romanian politicians - and on that background it will have a negative impact in the EU decision making proces that countries like Romania and Bulgaria have more votes than Denmark and Sweden.
The situation in countries like Romania and Bulgaria has nothing to do with intelligence - it is linked to the political culture which of course is influenced by many years of dictatorship. I hope the EU will have a positive impact on the development of Romania and Bulgaria - and I hope that the political impact will not go the opposite way.
I have been to Romania several times, both as a diplomat and as a politician. A beautiful country with beautiful people. But I am happy not to be ruled by your administration.
Sincerely yours,
Mogens Camre MEP ----- Anonymous - 13/05/2009
This Camre guy is so affraid of any culture that is not nordic/scandinavian and want to protect their "culture" from any thing outside.
He is just forgetting the fact that he would today go attacking and plundering villages, killing their men and raping their women in other civilised part of Europe/world, if his viking ancestors had the same kind of mentality a 1000 years ago.
They changed BECAUSE the got influenced from outside world specilly Balkan. But of course som individuals never change, no matter what. ----- Lucian - 14/05/2009
Sadly, this is the arrogant perspective on most of Western citizens toward their unlucky fellows from Balkans: stupid, retarded, dirty and inconvenient. Until these unfortunates stayed outside EU, it was convenient to treat them with condescendence, but now, they have become a threat for "Europe landfathers": wow, they behave like nations, they disagree with us, they want a place to our table! Outrageous, isn't it, mr.so-white-and-clean-and-clever Danish boy?
-------- Eugen - 14/05/2009
Your superiority complex feeds xenophobia and intolerance Mr. Mogens Camre. It seems your communication people read and respond to this article and the comments posted here. If you had good PR or bothered to listen to them, you would be more careful on how you express your views of superiority. I lived half my life in Communist Romania and I am the first to tell you that the political class and process in Romania are dominated by the legacy of that bleak period, down to some of the very individuals at the top of the system now, who are themselves former intelligence officers (Securitate) and communist party members. Yes, the system is broken and the first to suffer from this are my own people. But I can also tell you that the EU bureaucracy is also an ineffective, wasteful, at times self-serving, and somewhat corrupt machinery. Except it seems that sophisticated, white-gloved corruption disguised as serving the best interest of a superior set of people, the new political aristocracy and plutocracy of Europe, is acceptable. The unwashed masses from the East can go to rot since they are not worthy of sharing the table with the elevated northern Europeans seems to be your view and message. Your beliefs and discourse are worthy of an SS officer, so perhaps you should make clear your options and join one of the growing numbers of extreme right, racist and xenophobic movements springing up in your civilized part of the world. As for me, I can only laugh at the pretense of moral higher ground some European politicians such as yourself espouse. If you are so superior when was the last time you did something constructive to help those less fortunate then you learn and move closer to your high standards? When was the last time you invested time, effort and money (funding, not your own money) into training programs, exchanges, to ensure that the younger political class of the East and the West find a common voice and divorce themselves from the corrupt and questionable, unethical practices of their predecessors? You will earn the right to criticize anyone in any way you see fit once you take some constructive action and make a concerted effort to help change the current state for the better. Until then, you come across as simply a bigot who needs to buy a big bunker and hide from all these undesirable outsiders.
Respectfully yours, although you said and did nothing to earn respect.
--------- Ivaylo Iaydjiev - 14/05/2009
Dear Mr. Camre,
First, thank you for responding to this thread. However, I cannot hide my surprise at your words.
You say that you have "actually never expressed a word about the intelligence of Romanians. I have never been asked about that topic or any other similar topic.", and yet in the interview, in a clear and explicit matter, you said "honestly speaking - that we are more clever than they are". You do then talk about establishing a "viable" and "healthy" society. There are two problems arising from this. First, even if you do not comment the intelligence of Bulgarian and Romanian people, on what grounds do you consider that you have been "more clever"? I would urge you to get acquainted with local history and conditions more thoroughly, rather than limiting yourself to "scapegoat" comments. Second, do you think your attitude is worthy of a representative of a "healthy society", both in your current conduct and in your previous comments about Islam? Do they reflect liberal, democratic "health"?
Furthermore, I gather from your post that you have been to Romania, and you talk mostly about Romania. However, I am not sure if you are well informed about Bulgaria, or if you just assume that both go together? That is not to say we don't have common problems - in Bulgaria, there is corruption and crime. However, can you as "honestly" as you did in the interview, tell me that there is no corruption and no crime in Western Europe?
I believe that you, in your role as an MEP, know the history of the EU. How do you think the UK, France, and Western Germany looked upon you in 1973?
Additionally, how much influence do you believe votes in the EP have? It is an important organ, no doubt, but I am sure you are aware that real power resides in the dual executive, where the principle is one state, one member, and where Denmark certainly has more influence than Romania and Bulgaria.
I would also like to question your assertion that there are 27 nations in the EU. In the era of globalisation, is there such a thing as nation-state, and what significance does it have left? Second, I am sure you are aware that political culture is a notoriously difficult concept to apply.
You say that you "hope the EU will have a positive impact on the development of Romania and Bulgaria - and I hope that the political impact will not go the opposite way". Do you think that adopting a 25 + 2 view of the EU actually prevents such positive impact?
Last, nobody in the EU is "ruled" by anyone others' administration, and certainly not through the EP. Do you think Bulgarians and Romanians are "happy" to be ruled by YOUR administration (or by anyone else's for that matter)? Do keep in mind that since 1993, this has been an European UNION - your political convictions may be eurosceptic and intergovernmental, but the EU of today should be an union, even if there are power relations under the surface.
I would like to invite you to Bulgaria, if you haven't had the chance to visit our country yet.
I also want to apologize for the tone of this comment, as it is based solely on your interview with the RFI. I am sure you are a competent and able politician, but I cannot leave your comments without at least some response. I believe you will understand my motivation.
I would be very thankful for an answer and I am open to criticism (as long as it is not on my intelligence:) ).
Sincerely yours,
Ivaylo Iaydjiev
(On my blog, I have posted a more detailed response- salvatorestyx.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/eu-and-eastern-europe-in-varietate-discordia/ ) --------- Lazarova - 17/05/2009
Mr. Mogens Camres, What you have said about Bulgarians and Romanians is scandalous and it well reveals the general attitude of Danes towards other nations in general. It is true that both countries have problems with corruptions and I, as a Bulgarian, know that we have a lot of work to do towards achieving a healthy society. After the fall of the totalitarian regime we have passed through a lot of difficulties but I have to admit that we put a stress on political and economical improvements and though, the pace is slow, we turn to a better society.
What I really think is a problem of the today`s world is the intolerance towards other nations and particularly the lack of tolerance of Danish society towards other nations. For a nation to be in a disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior of other nations is not enough to make plain statements in media about the humanitarian helpfulness or integration practices. It is really unacceptable for a developed country like Denmark to declare itself working in support of peace, human rights, tolerance, mutual understanding and respect for diversity and in the same time the reality to prove it in the opposite direction. I live in Denmark quite enough to understand that Danes need to work on their acceptance of other nations.
It will be appropriate in this case for a politician to make a public excuse and to take his words back but I personally believe that this will not be so much dictated by honest human motives but much more by the political pressure of fellow countrymen who better realize the wrong movement that you, Mr Camres, have made. Even though, you have tried to amend your statements by clarifying what you really meant, we all know what stays behind these words. As to the statement that some nations are cleverer than others, this is subjective and dependent on the Nature.
Lazarova
--------- M Stankova - 21/05/2009
Maybe you should try reading a book before you make such ridiculous statements. I suggest you start from Maria Todorova's "Imagining the Balkans." As a Bulgarian historian fluent in 5 languages (hard to believe, isn't it?) and publishing in the United States, she is able to deftly develop the following argument - the notion of the Balkan people as illiterate vagabonds is in fact a figment, an invention of Western (Northern European nations, against which the construction of a positive image of these "civilized" countries has become possible.
The Balkans are just the most recent epicenter of homogenization conflict in Europe. Western Europe's homogenization has taken place since the crusades, the reconquista, the expulsion of Jews from England, and so forth. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries the turning of peasants into Frenchmen, the unification of Germany and Italy, the Holocaust, the repositioning of Poland, and the recent hostility to immigrants suggest that the drive to create ethnically homogeneous states is not exclusively a Balkan phenomenon. Western/Central European democracy took centuries to become even a possibility, and throughout that time, millions of people lost their lives.
Just because Denmark is a more ethnically homogenous country than my native Bulgaria, does not mean you have the right to sneer at Balkan people. Just because your history was less turbulent does not mean we have a lesser right to decide Europe's future.
Maria Stankova, musician --------- LivingInDenmark - 24/05/2009
Mogens Camre is a member of the Danish People Party, which itself emerged from the Fremskridtparti (Progress Party). The latter was openly xenophobic. The DPP adopted a different approach, which consists in sugar coating its statements and camouflaging its xenophobic motives befind a veil of political correctness. This allowed them to gain grounds, as they made their nationalist policies sound more acceptable to the working class and the elderly.
If you read Mr. Camre answer above (Mogens Camre MEP - 12/05/2009), you can see a typical example of this spin doctoring. Let's not be fooled: the DPP is a full-fledge right-wing party, which feeds on deeply-rooted prejudices at the grassroots, and its main motive is none other than keeping non-Danes out of Denmark (the "Denmark for Danes" ideology). Mogens Camre is not in a position to call anyone "reactionary," but then, there is an inherent contradiction in being a "PC right-wing party." Goebbels would be proud.
A few quotes from Mr. Camre can be found at:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_People's_Party#The_popularity_of_DPP
--------- ivopld - 04/01/2010
I read most of the user comments, and it seems many of the posters are shocked. Why are you people so surprised? The general populations of Denmark and Western Europe as a whole may not share this narrow minded opinion, but their governments certainly do. Ever since the Ottoman Empire fell apart, the ‘Great Powers’ have aimed at making the Balkans into an unstable and volatile region, and they’ve achieved that.
Now the almighty West has decided to start throwing ‘life lines’ by accepting us into the EU, but no Balkan nation will actually be perceived as a fully fledged EU member any time soon, Bulgaria and Romania will be viewed as ‘the outsiders’ for several years to come. This is exactly what the West wanted, and they are now beginning to reap the benefits of their virtual ‘slave’ nations that are fully dependent on them from practically all economic perspectives.
Camre’s comments are characteristic of a narrow minded individual that has a feeble understanding of history, politics, and just life in general.
If the Balkans had been left to their own devices over the past 100 years, only then would Camre’s comments be accurate, however we all know that that hasn’t been the case.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 4, 2010 17:20:41 GMT -5
Interesting fact that it is another Dane that makes xenophobic comments towards others (albeit nothing as extreme as the cartoon and no there will not be any fatwa declarations after this lol). And as anything there is some truth in what is said which should be an inspiration or was something else guiding logic behind such statements.
To Mogens Camre MEP
Personally I want to thank you for such comments which have made me your fan. I being from Balkans and being a proponent of unity and harmony between balkanian nations must say that such statement certainly plays my view a favor.
Keep them coming lol
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 4, 2010 19:24:11 GMT -5
Camre is 100% correct. Doesnt matter what the reason is... people in the Balkans go from ignorant to retarded. The mentality is backwards, the people are lazy, ignorant, overly traditional and conservative.
People in the Balkans need to be like Germans, Swedes, and other northern Europeans. These men have come to define what it means to be civilized and progressive. Getting over mindless old habits.
As of now, these German/Nordic countries are simply superior to Balkanites. Which is why I model my life and myself on them not on my parents and people. Be more German and less Slav-like or Balkan-like.
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Post by Kassandros on Jan 4, 2010 20:25:06 GMT -5
In a way.. I agree with him. But let me explain where I agree with him; He is from Denmark. Denmark is a perfect society. At least the best society in western world. Society is well organized.. and.. they're happy too. So.. I can undestand his fears. "Why we, as Danes, should be said by others, who have failed to organize their societies in the right way we did.... what to do"? Crystal clear.. and fair! He is right on this. We failed on this.. they dont!
On the other hand, I dissagree with the tittle as "Balkan people less inteligent". Since Balkans and the region of Med Sea has developed civilizations and empires.. one after the other... and specifically at the same time when Danish people were leaving in cages and were eating shells from the sea until 15th century.... that means something. My personal belief is that "intelligence" is a Med word. Unfortunately.. inteligence is not enough to built a good social structure. That is where we are not good enough. We dont care for our neighbor and that is our problem. Its not about intelligence. Its about our huge need for survival that makes us indifferent to our co-citizens..and that is what destroys our societies. Of course that hyper-need for survival.. is the outcome of their interfeerances with their military power to our lives! So.. there are prons and cons to his remarks.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jan 4, 2010 22:50:59 GMT -5
What he says is true of Balkanians:Socially conservative,traditional.
Many Romanians are backward when it comes to issues like gender roles,homosexuality,HIV/AIDS,treating people with disabilities,like that
But I have to add this guy does seem conservative too.Racist conservative type,you know? He talks about culture culture thing
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Jan 5, 2010 0:15:32 GMT -5
I love this movie. No Dane will ever party like we do.
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Post by rusebg on Jan 5, 2010 1:02:51 GMT -5
And stop being people from the Balkans? Oh well...let us turn into those boring Westerners, is that what you mean? No thank you.
With all respect, Melty, what I see from your life is spending half day here and the rest studying and sleeping. I this your idea of a modelled life? For fvck's sake, man, I am 38 and I have much more exciting life than you do. Please, shape yourself in whatever mould you feel fit but do not try present the unique way of Balkan life as something retarded.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jan 5, 2010 1:18:50 GMT -5
rusey,rusey...calm down
When he said ppl in the Balkans need to be like those northern Europeans,I think he meant as in being liberal,open minded.Be the epitomy of whats considered European.
And when he said modelled life,I dont think he meant what he does in life but his attitude to life,the way he relates to things.
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Post by shejtani on Jan 5, 2010 2:11:32 GMT -5
"And we don't think that people who did not create healthy societies should decide for us."
---> in a certain way, he's right.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 5, 2010 3:03:37 GMT -5
Lol! Boring? The funnest people to hang out with are northern European. Their life is more laid back and relaxed than the conservative village minded stuff you find in the Balkans. Their women are more free and open in general also, they dont gather in quasi-dike groups that are afraid of any incoming male like so many Balkan ppl... their societies also run more clean, more organized, healthier, and they have shaped and defined nightlife everywhere else. Clubs in the Balkans try to be like clubs in Berlin, Paris, London, NYC, Copenhagen.
hmm... I spent two parts of the day here generally. Once for an hour or two in the morning (I have no job right now and am on break) and an hour or two at most when I get home at night. I just came back from Manhattan a few mins ago. Also, I wasnt on this website for a good 4 days before which I spent with my friends on a rather strong New Years weekend (left 30 came back the 2nd).
Face it, Germans and northern Europeans are, at the moment, superior to Balkan people. Its something that every Balkan person should not take as an insult, but as something they should accept as a way to better themselves. Even the best Balkan schools cant compare with the worst ones in Europe.
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Post by hellboy87 on Jan 5, 2010 3:29:06 GMT -5
''Their women are more free and open in general also, they dont gather in quasi-dike groups that are afraid of any incoming male like so many Balkan...''
No wonder they want to marry Asian women.They need a women who make them feel like a men and that their with a woman-woman
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 5, 2010 7:12:57 GMT -5
Now that i've read this Dane's impression on Balkanoids i won't sleep for a month...i got very upset.... bloody Turks...until the Turks came his forefathers were hired as barbarian bodyguards over here...with axes and furs ...and when they saw cities like the City they were getting through cultural shocks... But things change... ta panta rei...
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Jan 5, 2010 8:16:40 GMT -5
Despite the fact that some of what this man says is true, I can't help but feel that he says it with a typical northern European superiority complex. Honestly, nobody thinks more highly of Nordic people than Nordic people themselves.
The way I see it, Balkan people have had to put up with a lot of crap for many centuries. While the rest of Europe were building up their societies in relative peace, we were under Ottomans oppression, then communism, etc. It takes time but I definitely see Balkan countries catching up with the rest of Europe at some time in the future. They are heading in that direction.
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Jan 5, 2010 9:31:36 GMT -5
This guy may be right but he's also a douchebag. Oh and by the way the "superior Danes" got into the Euro 92' and went on to win it all because Yugoslavia was disqualified due to the war that broke out in Bosnia.
I am boycotting Danish feta cheese for one month now.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 5, 2010 11:53:56 GMT -5
This guy may be right but he's also a douchebag. Oh and by the way the "superior Danes" got into the Euro 92' and went on to win it all because Yugoslavia was disqualified due to the war that broke out in Bosnia. I am boycotting Danish feta cheese for one month now. danish "feta cheese" must be always boycotted because its fake...and a cheap imitation...
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Post by ngadhnjyesi on Jan 5, 2010 12:24:47 GMT -5
danish "feta cheese" must be always boycotted because its fake...and a cheap imitation... Well since I can't really get Albanian feta in the States I usually go for the Danish one. Now I'm gonna have to opt for the Bulgarian feta which is actually quite good and very similar to the one I grew up with.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 5, 2010 12:36:30 GMT -5
Bulgarian feta is really good actually, much better than the others ones.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 5, 2010 14:48:06 GMT -5
Bulgarian feta is the best!!!!!
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 5, 2010 14:59:14 GMT -5
In the topic titled "Balkan People as 'Less Intelligent'?" conversation turns to feta cheese lol
just teasing ;D
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