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Post by logjiktek on May 22, 2010 16:38:57 GMT -5
I dont doubt your friend Faton is a nice guy, but I can guess already that he is not too bright and probably from rural Kosova or Macedonia. Very recently I met an Albanian from the Albanian side of Diber (culturally conservative and close to FYROM albs). Nice guy, but I had no respect for him since I saw him at a local mosque (that I went to with a Turkish friend of mine as a joke). These kinds of people would have spent their lives in prison under Hoxha and its unfortunate that it has since stopped. I've heard the Dibrans are pretty religious, and I've read some claims that there are some Wahabbist from Dibra in Staten Island. Was this mosque Staten Island btw? And I don't think there's a direct correlation between religion and education. I think it depends more on the individual, the upbringing, their environment and so forth. My father's family was never that religious and none of them went to college or finished any higher education because they came from a rural area where they were expected to work from a young age (mostly worked abroad.) Now the majority of my generation that lives in these rural areas have all attended college including the majority of the girls. Granted it helps that Tetova university is now an official university, unlike my father's generation that had to attend Prishtina university for higher education. But point is, there are many other factors that depend on intelligence than religious pov. I've come across many atheist from Albania that have this aura of pseudo-intellectualism. After speaking to them for more then 5 minutes you come to the conclusion they really have no clue what the fck they're talking about. I've even had some of them that were so ignorant that they were unaware of an Albanian population in Macedonia. Even my cousin that studied in Tirana was referred to as a Macedonian when he first attended in the mid 90's. You would think in an higher education institution such things wouldn't exist.
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Post by EriTopSheqeri on May 22, 2010 17:05:41 GMT -5
Of course there's a relation betqeen religion and education. How many scientists and luminaries, people who have ben key players in humanity's progress were religious? How many of the most renowned brains are religios today? Next to zero. And how many of them have perished in the hands of religios scumbags? Way to many to record. Were Leonardo, Edison, Galilei, Copernick etc etc religious?
It is not possible for a brain to be progress thanks to the numerous dogmas a religion instills in one's mind.
And if you didn't spend the whole time trolling in the other forum, you would have learnt something about Albania. Something as basic as during communism people had no clue about the neighboring countries. People being unaware of a country's ethnic composition does not make them uneducated.
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Post by logjiktek on May 22, 2010 18:06:52 GMT -5
Of course there's a relation betqeen religion and education. How many scientists and luminaries, people who have ben key players in humanity's progress were religious? How many of the most renowned brains are religios today? Next to zero. And how many of them have perished in the hands of religios scumbags? Way to many to record. Were Leonardo, Edison, Galilei, Copernick etc etc religious? It is not possible for a brain to be progress thanks to the numerous dogmas a religion instills in one's mind. And if you didn't spend the whole time trolling in the other forum, you would have learnt something about Albania. Something as basic as during communism people had no clue about the neighboring countries. People being unaware of a country's ethnic composition does not make them uneducated. Galileo, Newton, Copernicus were all of a religious background. As for the scientist today, I've read different studies that concluded different results, however, I would assume many of them to be of a agnostic/atheist background. As for progression, one could argue that these scientist are responsible for negative externalities such as pollution or the creation of an object that could destroy the world in a whim. Relating this to your sentence about scientist dying under the hands of religous nuts, do you blame Einstein for the deaths of those in Japan? My point is there are many factors to consider into intelligence. There are many people that don't believe in God but are as dumb as a rock (you might be one of them Emira, jk jk .) And there re others that are tops in their class. But to suggest a relation is between intelligence and religion is a bit absurd. However I do think someone who is overly religious would be held back by the "dogmas" you speak of. Toski was basically saying Albanians from Albania are more intelligent than those from Kosova and FYROM since the ones from Kosova and FYROM were more "religious." While I do think Albania has more "intellects"this is due to the education institution that were in place. Kosova had their own university atleast and FYROM Albanian institutions did not go past high school if they were even available in their area. PS: I'm not speaking of communism, I'm speaking of the post-communist period and the ignorance of these "scholars" in the mid 90's. I understand the situation pretty well in Albania, probably more so than these atheist Albanians that live in America.....
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
Senior Moderator
Simarik Turkish Pwincess
Know yourself...
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on May 22, 2010 18:30:17 GMT -5
Why would religion affect intelligence?
The only logic I can find behind this is that non religious people such as atheists are more skeptical towards religion and search for 'other' answers, therefore expanding there intellectual capacity.
Religious people are generally poorer people that need 'something' to keep them going in life, because they cannot afford educations. (Except wahhabi's which i don't class as religious - they are a cult)
Religious people also do not feel the need to search for 'other' answers or meanings because they ultimately know that God exists and that is why they exist.
We cannot, and do not have the capasity to jude other peoples level of intelligence.
Now on the other hand, I am religious in my own personal way, does this make an atheist here on this forum more intelligent than myself? It depends on what subject or area. Intelligence includes a variety of traits, some may be stronger, some may be weaker. I don't think anyone here has the right to say I am less intelligent because I have faith. Quite the contrary I have faith because ' I have nothing to lose by believing'
For the subject of Albanians, in London the ones I came across were all Kosovan and were all religious, I have said this before but il say it again, one guy even tried to convince me to marry him because we were both muslim!! that didn't work with me.
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Post by malsor4life on May 22, 2010 20:16:23 GMT -5
Ive met Albs from ex-yugo who are very smart and Albs from Albania who are dumb as a rock, and vice-versa. Theres no correlation, to think otherwise is just retarded.
In fact i remember back in the mid-90's when Albs from Albania first started migrating to New York, i was suprised and felt empathy for some of them because they seemed like they were in a coma for 50 yrs (b/c of communism) and didnt know the first thing about life.
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Post by kolonia on May 22, 2010 21:45:49 GMT -5
Most Albanians in Europe come from rural areas of Kosova and FYROM, areas that tend to move towards various levels of conservativism while most Albanians in America come from: 1) more educated and urban background and 2) come from Albania, which, due to Enver Hoxha suppression of faith in its totality (a very good move) have almost no religion and have lost various religious cultural traditions (we served sausages during a Ramazan night gathering once). Generally, the more atheist/secular an Albanian is, the more intelligent he is... the more islamic/religious the more ignorant. I dont doubt your friend Faton is a nice guy, but I can guess already that he is not too bright and probably from rural Kosova or Macedonia. Very recently I met an Albanian from the Albanian side of Diber (culturally conservative and close to FYROM albs). Nice guy, but I had no respect for him since I saw him at a local mosque (that I went to with a Turkish friend of mine as a joke). These kinds of people would have spent their lives in prison under Hoxha and its unfortunate that it has since stopped. You talk so much shit it is unbelievable. Soooo now you know where most of the Albanians in Europe come from, wow, what kind of magic are you using to gather all this information? Please, please, stop being a moron, stop embarrassing other Albanians with your nonsense. True there are Albanians in Europe who come from rural areas of Kosova and FYROM, but do not forget from Albania proper (come to London and you'll witness this yourself). Also, the first Albanians to have stepped in London were all educated Kosovars back in the 80s. While, yes in Germany there were a number of those who were from the country side and hard-working. You have all kinds in Europe, as you do in the USA. So stop with this bullshit of yours.
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Post by leshte on May 22, 2010 21:54:18 GMT -5
You have summed up the essence of science. Take nothing for granted until there is a proof. Touching upon this. When the first Universities opened in the US, they did not and discouraged hiring European professors because they were Christians. I think it was Benjamin Franklin who wrote to the president of the University of Pennsylvania (If I am not mistaken) telling him not to hire European professors because they're Christians and their doctrine could indeed be dangerous.
I think that back in the days during medieval times, the people who were more educated than others where the clergy. They knew how to read and write. Closeness with the church also meant more favors from the church for the aristocrats. Hence it is not surprising at all that the first scientists came from the aristocrat who saw themselves as being close to the church or to its doctrine. Newton being one. But as education became more and more attainable being a scientist didn't have to mean that you would have to be an aristocrat or close to the church since the church's power diminished greatly and since at later times you didn't have to be an aristocrat to pursue higher education. So as time progressed you had less and less scientists who regarded themselves as religious. Sure, religious doctrine can be harmful to science like in the case of Giordano Bruno or Galileo, or the fact that so little was achieved in terms of science when the church ruled Europe. However there have also been cases of scientists who were very successful and regarded themselves to be religious. Personally though, I think the less religion the more scientific progress simply because progress is achieved through an unending search for answers. Religion can be detrimental because you can have someone claim that God made the earthquakes because somebody was showing her boobs. And these morons hold the reigns of whole countries.
As to people claiming Albanians from a certain area are smarter or more intelligent that is stupid. It all boils down to an individual level. Some people have less wrinkles in their brains hence they could be lacking intelligence.
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Post by insomniac on May 22, 2010 23:46:15 GMT -5
It's hard and abstract to measure intelligence. So while Melty may know a lot about history or classical history. He doesn't know much more than Insomniac lets say about the field of economics. Does not know more than Dijedon about [insert field]. So yeah, i could believe that more people from southern albania attend university in general. It seems to be the case. But that has to do with knowledge. A lot of chinese can memorize really good too. While intelligence is the mental capacity to reason and think abstractly.
So let's avoid generalization of any kind as they are often not true.
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king
Amicus
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Post by king on May 23, 2010 1:20:29 GMT -5
Nationalistic, Racist and some are Islamistic
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
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Post by Kanaris on May 23, 2010 1:26:27 GMT -5
Every Albo I know... is patriotic... until they need something from you.... then all of a sudden .... they will call themselves panteli,petro,giorgos and michali...and wear a big gold cross around their neck... ;D
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 23, 2010 1:47:51 GMT -5
No... I wasnt. I was saying that Albanians from Albania have been pushed away from religion harder than the oppressed Kosovo and Mac Albs. And that Albanians in Europe tend to be from those areas rather than Albania (who go to italy, America and greece
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 23, 2010 2:08:14 GMT -5
History, sociology, and other types of social sciences broaden ones mind to aspects of man in ways that economics, engineering etc. etc. When you study history, you study man and his habits and you come to understand how he works. All of the most politically and socially astute people I know are people in the field of social sciences while generally the more limited in knowledge are those in fields that deal with business.
To put it simply: a person who has a strong awareness of most sciences will naturally deduce that atheism/agnosticism is the obvious clear choice and will come to understand how human's develop such beliefs and ideas.
Maybe intelligent isnt the right word, but knowledgeable is more appropriate.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 23, 2010 2:11:17 GMT -5
Logjik, as for the top world sciences... according to the most legit survey (they were asked personally) 85% were atheist... the rest agnostic.
Do you think that a person who can trace the development of religion from its origins and has an understand of the complex social workings of man would honestly believe in islam? Sorry, I just dont buy it, its like intentionally keeping yourself blind.
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Post by vanilo on May 23, 2010 2:31:31 GMT -5
Toskaliku, As far as my friend goes, he's actually a very nice, bright guy. I'm a little shocked with your comment about Albanians (or people altogether?) being more stupid, the more they have religion in their lives. I'm not sure who made you the judge of intelligence, what that is, and how you become that way. Not everyone thinks a smart person is someone who's memorized dates and a bunch of other peoples' theories. I personally just see them as very nice robots . Leshte, As I mentioned, I was only talking through my observations of American Albanians from this site. And my observation is what I mentioned in my previous posts...
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Post by leandros nikon on May 25, 2010 16:21:16 GMT -5
i would really like to know what decent albanian immigrants in greece think about that...if such a thing exists...
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Post by Red Brigade on Jun 3, 2010 12:08:24 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that in regards to religion, I've also noticed a difference between Albanians in America and Europe. The American Albanians seem very against religion but I honestly can't say I know of any Albanians around my area who's an Atheist. Even though many Albanians aren't strict Muslims, they still take pride in being Muslims I once posted a picture of my Albanian friend, Faton - he's a good example of a Muslim Albanian who's not a strict Muslim (he drinks, doesn't care about halal and haram, has girlfriends, sex etc.) but he actually gets crazily offended if anyone asks him whether or not he's Muslim...to him, it's a very obvious part of him. That's because these boards attract mainly nationalists, so the sample of people that you observe over here is not representative of any country.
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Post by restless1gr on Jun 4, 2010 1:00:53 GMT -5
they will call themselves panteli,petro,giorgos and michali...and wear a big gold cross around their neck... ;D hmmm, this is something I never understood about albanians, so I ll tell you my view of them, as I know (?) them. I have no idea what Albanians in Greece think of themselves and what they think of greeks. Not only they never talk, but here, they act like they are ashamed of their nationality (change their names to greek) and never express their oppinions to us. So, despite the fact that generally I hate feeling cautious, I m cautious with the people who hide or tend to lie about themselves, so -from all the minorities in greece- I ve always been cautious with albanians. And I have to admit that -till recently- I never really felt respect for our albanian immigrants, because I would never trust or respect a person who denies his/her own nationality. Fortunatelly, no more than 3 months ago, I met a woman who proudly didn't change her name (nor did her husband), and who proudly talked about her country and her managing to survive in Greece with her family. And that was trully a relief, that YES, there are proud albanians in Greece. I understand, of course, that every immigrant in every country is treated more or less as an intruder. Every greek knows that in Greece the word "albanian" has become a synonym to "parasite" & "criminal", and I ve no idea how albanians act in their own country. When the "great immigration" happened here, I was only 15 years old and I really don't remember how things came to this. So I d really like to have an answer to my question: why do you think all the other minorities in Greece don't tend to deny their nationality except the albanians? What came first? The resent and fear by the greeks, or the secrecy of the albanians? I mean, is this behaviour caused only by the circumstances, or is it a general feature of albanians that is maximized by the fact that they are foreigners here?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 4, 2010 1:57:44 GMT -5
The Albanians in Greece are deeply impoverished and brutalized villagers who survived a regime most Greeks have not a single idea over. You simply cannot imagine what Hoxha and the communists did. For many years, this broke the national identity of many who came to resent the nation (through the leaders) that did this to them. As a result, apathy and pessimism as well as general negativity (still noticable among older Albs while less so among younger ones) began to permeate through post-communist society. Add this to the ineffectivity of the post-Communist government and the terrible economic conditions inherited from such a collapse.
TO put it simply: only those who come from ex-socialist block countries can understand the national and ethnic depression Albanians as a people went through as a result of and in the aftermath of the collapse of a nation and a major repressive regime. You guys do not know what it is like, at all, you havent experienced an ounce of what they have went through. These people went abroad looking not to make it rich, but to be able to eat and find some work and in the end they came into the Italian and Greek hysteria.
Albanians from Kosova and Macedonia are different. The repression they felt was ethnic and as a result it strengthened their nationalism and sense of ethnic identity. That is why any form of overt nationalism is called by mother 'si kosovaret' (like Kosovars).
Albanians in America as damn well proud to openly proclaim who they are, because they are not repressed in that regard. They wont be insulted in class if they are subhuman, they dont suffer constant media attention and panic, they dont experience belittlement. They are treated like human beings, and repond well to it. Thats why in the Bronx there are streets lined with Albanian flags to the point where Americans have come to believe that Albanians are nothing BUT diehard nationalists.
This is the same with Albanians in Germany, England, Sweden, Canada... etc. etc.
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Post by restless1gr on Jun 4, 2010 2:51:27 GMT -5
wow, thanks and no, I could never understand the situation of albanians before they came here... I ve heard stories, but these stories will always seem distant and unbelievable to me.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jun 4, 2010 11:08:49 GMT -5
My mother was terrified when she heard cars pass by because only members of the Politburo had cars and so when one stopped infront of your building, it often meant someone was going to go away.... for a long time. This was when she was a little girl. My aunt was still shaking the
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