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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Oct 6, 2010 16:41:40 GMT -5
Several families of Byzantine Greece were of Norman mercenary origin during the period of the Comnenian Restoration, when Byzantine emperors were seeking out western European warriors. The Raoulii were descended from an Italo-Norman named Raoul, the Petraliphae were descended from a Pierre d'Aulps, and that group of Albanian clans known as the Maniakates were descended from Normans who served under George Maniaces in the Sicilian expedition of 1038.
In Albania (11th - 13th centuries)
After successfully establishing their feudal state, the Normans originating from 11th century Normandy, France, under the duke Robert Guiscard ultimately drove out the Byzantines from southern Italy. Having obtained pope Gregory VII's consent and acting as his vassal, Robert continued his campaign in conquering the Balkan peninsula as a foothold for western feudal lords and the Catholic Church. After allying himself with Croatia and the Catholic cities of Dalmatia, in the year 1081 an army of 30,000 men in 300 ships landed in the southern shores of Albania, capturing Valona, Kanina, Jericho (Orikum), reaching Butrint after numerous pillages. They joined the fleet that had previously conquered Corfu. The Normans attacked Dyrrachium from land and sea, devastating everything along the way. Under these harsh circumstances, the locals accepted emperor Alexius I Comnenus' call to join forces with the Byzantines against the Normans who besieged Dyrrachium. The Albanian forces could not take part in the ensuing battle, because it had started too early, before their arrival. According to contemporary sources[citation needed], this was one of the main causes the Byzantines were defeated in October 18, 1081 in the southern hills of Dyrrachium. Some time before, the Byzantine fleet, aided by the Venetians, had secured a victory in the coast north of the city. Forced to retreat, Alexius ceded the command to a high Albanian official named Comiscortes[2] in the service of Byzantium. The city's garrison resisted until February 1082, when Dyrrachium was betrayed to the Normans by the Venetian and Amalfitan merchants who had settled in the city. The Normans were now free to penetrate in the hinterland; they took Ioannina, some minor cities in Southwestern Macedonia, Thessaly and appeared before the gates of Thessalonica. Dissension among the high ranks coerced the Normans to retreat in Italy; they lost Dyrrachium, Valona and Butrint in 1085 after the death of Robert. A few years after the First Crusade, in 1107, the Normans under the command of Bohemond, Robert's son, landed in Valona and besieged Dyrrachium using the most sophisticated military equipment of the time, but to no avail. Meanwhile, they occupied Petrela, the citadel of Mili at the banks of the river Deabolis, Gllavinica (Ballsh), Kanina and Jericho. This time, the Albanians sided with the Normans, dissatisfied by the heavy taxes the Byzantines had imposed upon them. With their help, the Normans secured the Arbanon passes and opened their way to Dibra. The lack of supplies, disease and Byzantine resistance forced Bohemond to retreat from his campaign and sign a peace treaty with the Byzantines in the city of Deabolis. The further decline of Byzantine state-of-affairs paved the road to a third attack in 1185, when a large Norman army invaded Dyrrachium, owing to the betrayal of high Byzantine officials. Some time later, Dyrrachium - one of the most important naval bases of the Adriatic - fell again to Byzantine hands.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans#In_Albania_.2811th_-_13th_centuries.29
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Oct 6, 2010 16:42:48 GMT -5
Interesting that this is the time that Albanians appear in history also and that some of the Albanian clans are Norman in origin and that Albanian is greatly influenced by Latin language (Normans spoke Latin).
reposting now related material from other topics
-------------- I have nothing against Albanians but was rather curious about their enigmatic origins.
Normans seem to perfectly explain many things such as very name Albania is derived from them, they enter with big army (30,000) and become ruling class (leading families being of Norman origin) and even introduce the style of feudalism which only existed in Albania and no where else in Balkans was clearly introduced by Normans.
The so call Dacian connection does not appear to actually exist since the words presented are Slavic, Latin, Greek, Norse etc.
Albanian population is local genetically speaking and I do not dispute that but their identity and language doesn't not appear to be so. I do not see them as unrelated to me, on contrary.
Balkans was under intense Hellenic cultural influence (only remains are in Greek and even Phyrgian connection points to Greek direction) and later under intense Roman influence where much of Balkans become romanized (rest remained Hellenic).
There is no way Albanians survived these influences (linguistically speaking) and existed in what was the most volatile part of Balkans which is region between Serbia and Bulgaria where there were numerous Roman colonies later to boot and which produced many emperors for Rome (emperors elected by their own loyal troops many stemming from our neck of the woods).
It is even less probable to be located in Dacia which was far more volatile in terms of invasions and where even once mighty Dacians are gone (yet Albanians survived?).
There are no records of people who lived next to Rome and Greece and while Greeks describe in detail far away mongoloid Sarmatians (who could not have been that numerous either unless someone lists some cities) yet Albanians are living like ninjas unnoticed right under Roman and Greek noses. -------------- why is that hard to believe? being survivalist is pretty evident even in more modern times. not been up to question. also think albanians were much more numerous then in terms of population then rather than now. they shrank and formed nucleus in northern albania for which they expanded again(in process still).
That is hard to believe because there is an example here that suggests strongly that such scenario did not work. Example is right in your vicinity. Basically entire Dinaric mountain chain east of you was filled with Vlachs and who lived next to Roman cities like Ragusa yet they all become slavized gradually. Albania was filled with Slavic toponyms and ruled by various Slavs, Bulgarians and Serbs until the coming of Normans. Cities on the coast are Greek especially Durres which during Norman attacks must have been pretty populated judging by the military numbers in bellow link.
Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081), fought between the Normans and the Byzantine Empire en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dyrrhachium_(1081)
After this battle situation starts changing in Albania especially as it related in bellow link.
Second Norman invasion of the Balkans (1184–1185)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Norman_wars#Second_Norman_invasion_of_the_Balkans_.281184.E2.80.931185.29
Albanians appear on historical scene right after this
The Principality of Arbër or Arbëria (1190–1255) was the first Albanian state during the Middle Ages.[1]
Principality of Arbër
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Arb%C3%ABr
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(Normans) In Albania (11th - 13th centuries)
After successfully establishing their feudal state, the Normans originating from 11th century Normandy, France, under the duke Robert Guiscard ultimately drove out the Byzantines from southern Italy. Having obtained pope Gregory VII's consent and acting as his vassal, Robert continued his campaign in conquering the Balkan peninsula as a foothold for western feudal lords and the Catholic Church. After allying himself with Croatia and the Catholic cities of Dalmatia, in the year 1081 an army of 30,000 men in 300 ships landed in the southern shores of Albania, capturing Vlora|Valona, Kanina, Jericho (Orikumi), reaching Butrint after numerous pillages. They joined the fleet that had previously conquered Corfu. The Normans attacked Dyrrachium from land and sea, devastating everything along the way. Under these harsh circumstances, the locals accepted emperor Alexius I Comnenus' call to join forces with the Byzantines against the Normans who besieged Dyrrachium. The Albanian forces could not take part in the ensuing battle, because it had started too early, before their arrival. Immediately before the battle the Venetian fleet had secured a victory in the coast surrounding the city. Forced to retreat, Alexius ceded the command to a high Albanian official named Comiscortes[3] in the service of Byzantium. The city's garrison resisted until February 1082, when Dyrrachium was betrayed to the Normans by the Venetian and Amalfitan merchants who had settled in the city. The Normans were now free to penetrate in the hinterland; they took Ioannina, some minor cities in Southwestern Macedonia, Thessaly and appeared before the gates of Thessalonica. Dissension among the high ranks coerced the Normans to retreat in Italy; they lost Dyrrachium, Valona and Butrint in 1085 after the death of Robert. A few years after the First Crusade, in 1107, the Normans under the command of Bohemond, Robert's son, landed in Valona and besieged Dyrrachium using the most sophisticated military equipment of the time, but to no avail. Meanwhile, they occupied Petrela, the citadel of Mili at the banks of the river Deabolis, Gllavenica (Ballsh), Kanina and Jericho. This time, the Albanians sided with the Normans, dissatisfied by the heavy taxes the Byzantines had imposed upon them. With their help, the Normans secured the Arbanon passes and opened their way to Dibra. The lack of supplies, disease and Byzantine resistance forced Bohemond to retreat from his campaign and sign a peace treaty with the Byzantines in the city of Deabolis. The further decline of Byzantine state-of-affairs paved the road to a third attack in 1185, when a large Norman army invaded Dyrrachium, owing to the betrayal of high Byzantine officials. Some time later, Dyrrachium - one of the most important naval bases of the Adriatic - fell again to Byzantine hands.
--------- 3# ^ Paul Stephenson, Byzantium's Balkan frontier: a political study of the Northern Balkans, 900-1204, Cambridge University Press, 2000, Page 167. [1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans#In_Albania_.2811th_-_13th_centuries.29---------- Albanians in the Middle Ages
What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the eleventh century.[30] It was discovered in a Serbian manuscript dated 1628 and was first published in 1934 by Radoslav Grujic. This fragment of a legend from the time of Tsar Samuel endeavours, in a catechismal 'question and answer' form, to explain the origins of peoples and languages. It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: Orthodox, half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians) and non-believers. The Albanians find their place among the nations of half-believers. If we accept the dating of Grujic, which is based primarily upon the contents of the text as a whole, this would be the earliest written document referring to the Albanians as a people or language group.[31]
It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.
The first undisputed mention of Albanians in the historical record is attested in Byzantine source for the first time in 1079-1080, in a work titled History by Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates, who referred to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium. It is disputed, however, whether the "Albanoi" of the events of 1043 refers to Albanians in an ethnic sense or whether "Albanoi" is a reference to Normans from Sicily under an archaic name (there was also tribe of Italy by the name of "Albanoi").[32] However a later reference to Albanians from the same Attaliates, regarding the participation of Albanians in a rebellion around 1078, is undisputed.[33] At this point, they are already fully Christianized, although Albanian mythology and folklore are part of the Paleo-Balkan pagan mythology,[34] in particular showing Greek influence.[35]
30# ^ R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3
31# ^ Extract from: Grujic, Radoslav: Legenda iz vremena Cara Samuila o poreklu naroda. in: Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198 200. Translated from the Old Church Slavonic by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3. Albanian History
32# ^ The wars of the Balkan Peninsula: their medieval origins G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series Authors Alexandru Madgearu, Martin Gordon Editor Martin Gordon Translated by Alexandru Madgearu Edition illustrated Publisher Scarecrow Press, 2008 ISBN 0810858460, 9780810858466 was supposed that those Albanoi from 1042 were Normans from Sicily, called by an archaic name (the Albanoi were an independent tribe from Southern Italy), p. 25
33# ^ The wars of the Balkan Peninsula: their medieval origins G - Reference, Information and Interdisciplinary Subjects Series Authors Alexandru Madgearu, Martin Gordon Editor Martin Gordon Translated by Alexandru Madgearu Edition illustrated Publisher Scarecrow Press, 2008 ISBN 0810858460, 9780810858466 It was supposed that those Albanoi from 1042 were Normans from Sicily, called by an archaic name (the Albanoi were an independent tribe from Southern Italy). The following instance is indisputable. It comes from the same Attaliates, who wrote that the Albanians (Arbanitai) were involved in the 1078 rebellion of... p. 25
34# ^ Bonnefoy, Yves (1993-05-15). American, African, and Old European mythologies. University of Chicago Press. p. 253. ISBN 9780226064574. books.google.gr/books?id=GYjc5POwJjAC&pg=PA253&dq=Although+Albanian+mythology+has+not+yet+been+the+subject+of+a+monograph&hl=en&ei=QBwVTdPyGYOh8QPZ3rWFBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBA#v=snippet&q=Although%20Albanian%20mythology%20has%20not%20yet%20been%20the%20subject%20of%20a%20monograph%2C%20it%20has%20been%20treated%20in%20many%20essays%20and%20articles%20on%20linguistics%2C%20folklore%2C%20and%20ethnology.%20This%20mythology%20can%20be%20considered%20part%20of%20the%20of%20the%20Balkan%20pagan%20tradition&f=false. Retrieved 24 December 2010.
35# ^ Mircea Eliade, Charles J. Adams, The Encyclopedia of religion, Macmillan, 1987, ISBN 9780029097007, p. 179.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians#Albanians_in_the_Middle_Ages
---------- In Byzantium
Soon after the Normans first began to enter Italy, they entered the Byzantine Empire, and then Armenia against the Pechenegs, Bulgars, and especially Seljuk Turks. The Norman mercenaries first encouraged to come to the south by the Lombards to act against the Byzantines soon fought in Byzantine service in Sicily. They were prominent alongside Varangian and Lombard contingents in the Sicilian campaign of George Maniaces of 1038-40. There is debate whether the Normans in Greek service were mostly or at all from Norman Italy, and it now seems likely only a few came from there. It is also unknown how many of the "Franks", as the Byzantines called them, were Normans and not other Frenchmen.
One of the first Norman mercenaries to serve as a Byzantine general was Hervé in the 1050s. By then however, there were already Norman mercenaries serving as far away as Trebizond and Georgia. They were based at Malatya and Edessa, under the Byzantine duke of Antioch, Isaac Komnenos. In the 1060s, Robert Crispin led the Normans of Edessa against the Turks. Roussel de Bailleul even tried to carve out an independent state in Asia Minor with support from the local population, but he was stopped by the Byzantine general Alexius Komnenos.
Some Normans joined Turkish forces to aid in the destruction of the Armenians vassal-states of Sassoun and Taron in far eastern Anatolia. Later, many took up service with the Armenian states further south in Cilicia and the Taurus Mountains. A Norman named Oursel led a force of "Franks" into the upper Euphrates valley in northern Syria. From 1073 to 1074, 8,000 of the 20,000 troops of the Armenian general Philaretus Brachamius were Normans — formerly of Oursel — led by Raimbaud. They even lent their ethnicity to the name of their castle: Afranji, meaning "Franks." The known trade between Amalfi and Antioch and between Bari and Tarsus may be related to the presence of Italo-Normans in those cities while Amalfi and Bari were under Norman rule in Italy.
Several families of Byzantine Greece were of Norman mercenary origin during the period of the Comnenian Restoration, when Byzantine emperors were seeking out western European warriors. The Raoulii were descended from an Italo-Norman named Raoul, the Petraliphae were descended from a Pierre d'Aulps, and that group of Albanian clans known as the Maniakates were descended from Normans who served under George Maniaces in the Sicilian expedition of 1038.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans#In_Byzantium
----------- Linguistically Albanian can not be derived from anything Illyrian via no means. Remains from Illyria point to either Greek (or Phrygian) direction for southern Illyria ..........or......... Italic direction for northern Adriatic region. Pannonia has no remains and remains enigma just as do Albanians.
There is no way that Albanian is derived from only Balkan sources (specifically Thracian or Illyrian) since I doubt it would exist at all considering the level of Hellenization and Romanization Balkans underwent in antiquity. Only potential Balkan source might be Dacian that might have been isolated enough but even this is doubtful although Dacian seems to have influenced Albanian. Then heavy Slavic influence that brought intensive Slavization in Byzantine provinces which were left fully defenseless due to the fact that Byzantines were fighting wars of survival against Arabs and Persians. Slavizaton scientifically decreases chances for Dascian theory since it was extensive in so called Dacian regions.
Normans point (as I posted before and I will try to post more details from the sources that such data came from) to a very real possibility of Norman (and thus Crusader) influence. In the same text it clearly states that under the term Normans (who at this point were only Latin speaking) there were also populations which were not derived from Normans stemming from Italy. It states in fact most were not - which raises the question also as far as who were these so called Normans. The text also shows that Normans went to number of places such as specifically Caucasus (Armenia and Georgia mentioned, especially Armenia) region and had some of the natives there on their side and they even lent the 'ethnicity' to the locals. So this now means that Normans are not only added to the equation as far as Albanians are concerned but also whoever these Caucasian elements are that were contained within Normans.
So are we to believe that some primitive mountain tribe (Albanian has no native maritime words) survived Hellenization, Romanization (Romans), Hellenization (this time via Byzantines), Slavization and possibly again Romanization (probably this time via Normans) yet they receive noticeable Persian influence as bellow data suggest.
The rise of the Ottoman Empire meant an influx of Turkish words; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Surprisingly the Persian words seem to have been absorbed the most.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Gothic_loans
The Persian influence again most logically connects to Normans and their wars in Armenia which was an area under heavy Persian influence. Meaning, it points to Normans bringing some population with them.
Going back to original Illyrians and specifically southern Illyrians here I will post about Phrygians (whom, on a minor scale, with Greeks, on a far larger scale, are the only connecting dots with those people).
More on Phrygians
The earliest mentionings of the Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus, who relates them to Phrygians by stating that, according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia,[3] a movement which is thought to have happened between 1200 BC and 800 BC[4] perhaps due to the Bronze Age collapse, particularly the fall of the Hittite Empire and the power vacuum that was created.
3^ Herodotus. Histories, 7.73. "The Phrygian equipment was very similar to the Paphlagonian, with only a small difference. As the Macedonians say, these Phrygians were called Briges as long as they dwelt in Europe, where they were neighbors of the Macedonians; but when they changed their home to Asia, they changed their name also and were called Phrygians. The Armenians, who are settlers from Phrygia, were armed like the Phrygians. Both these together had as their commander Artochmes, who had married a daughter of Darius."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#History
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While some consider the Phrygians part of a "Thraco-Phrygian" group, Claude Brixhe [1] dismisses that idea, since Thracian and Dako-Thracian seem to belong to the Eastern (satem) group of Indo-European languages (see Brixhe-Panayotou, 1994, #3ff). Brixhe believes that "unquestionably, however, Phrygian is most closely linked with Greek." [2] [3
1# ^ The ancient Languages of Asia Minor, Cambridge University Press, 2008
2# ^ The ancient Languages of Asia Minor, Cambridge University Press, 2008
3# ^ Midas and the Phrygians, by Miltiades E. Bolaris (2010)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia
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Phrygian is considered to have been closely related to Greek.[1][2] The similarity of some Phrygian words to Greek ones was observed by Plato in his Cratylus (410a).
1# ^ Brixhe, Cl. "Le Phrygien". In Fr. Bader (ed.), Langues indo-européennes, pp. 165-178, Paris: CNRS Editions.
2# ^ Woodard, Roger D. The Ancient Languages of Asia Minor. Cambridge University Press, 2008, ISBN 052168496X, p. 72. "Unquestionably, however, Phrygian is most closely linked with Greek."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language
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Norman possessions in the 12th century
source of the map
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_language
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Look at the words his sources use
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""But IFIllyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries."
www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-M....ians-and-Vlachs
www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html
Illogical assesment since that area had Greeks, Romans and Slavs controlling. Primitive mountain dwelling population would have succumbed to the linguistic pressure for sure. Notice IF in the quote above.
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"Other linguistic arguments which have been deployed in this Illyrian versus Thracian debate are more technical. Much ink has been spilt, for example, on the question of whether Illyrian was a satem language or a centum language. This is a traditional classification of all Indo-European languages according to their underlying patterns of consonant development. (The labels are taken from the Old Ira)
Albanian is a satem language, and Thracian is thought to have been one too. Most scholars believed that Illyrian was a satem language, until linguists analysed the surviving inscriptions in Venetic, a language of north-eastern Italy which was assumed (on the authority of ancient authors) to be related to Illyrian. This turned out to be definitely centum, and persuaded some experts that the whole Illyrian group must therefore have been centum too in which case Albanian could not have come from Illyrian. [43] However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian. [44] (Similar problems caused by another language thought to be related to Illyrian, the Messapian language of southern Italy, have also been resolved in the same way.) [45] Illyrian was probably satem after all.
www.promacedonia.org/en/nm/kosovo.html
www.scribd.com/doc/8699791/Noel-M....ians-and-Vlachs
The guy writing this is clearly guessing since again there are no other remains from Illyria other then Greek and that connection with Phrygian.
One doesn't even need to do anything but point at his words to prove what I am saying and that is that Albanian language remain an enigma.
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So you know better then linguists and historians? Greek and Latin have both left traces in Albanian, so whats your point? New study do indeed show that venetic was not related with Illyrian. The reason why Illyrian was believed to be centum is because venetic is centum. However, noel malcolm clearly stated that: "However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian"
First there is no blanket term for all so called Illyrians as they are perceived to be today. Venetic is related to northern Adriatic which I already said was Italic-like such as Liburnians and Histrians.
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Arguments against Illyrian origin
The theory of an Illyrian origin of the Albanians is challenged on archaeological and linguistic grounds.[58]
* Although the Illyrian tribe of the Albanoi and the place Albanopolis could be located near Krujë, nothing proves a relation of this tribe to the Albanians, whose name appears for the first time in the eleventh century in Byzantine sources[59]
* According to linguist V. Georgiev, the theory of an Illyrian origin for the Albanians is weakened by a lack of any Albanian names before the 12th century and the relative absence of Greek influence that would surely be present if the Albanians inhabited their homeland continuously since ancient times.[60] According to Georgiev if the Albanians originated near modern-day Albania, the number of Greek loanwords in the Albanian language should be higher.[61]
* According to Georgiev, although some Albanian toponyms descend from Illyrian, Illyrian toponyms from antiquity have not changed according to the usual phonetic laws applying to the evolution of Albanian. Furthermore, placenames can be a special case and the Albanian language more generally has not been proven to be of Illyrian stock.[59]
* Many linguists have tried to link Albanian with Illyrian, but without clear results.[59][62] Albanian belongs to the satem group within Indo-European language tree, while there is a debate whether Illyrian was centum or satem. On the other hand, Dacian[62] and Thracian[63] seem to belong to satem.
* There is a lack of clear archaeological evidence for a continuous settlement of an Albanian-speaking population since Illyrian times. For example, while Albanians scholars maintain that the Komani-Kruja burial sites support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory, most scholars reject this and consider that the remains indicate a population of Romanized Illyrians who spoke a Romance language.[64][65][66] Recently, some Albanian archeologists have also been moving away from describing the Komani-Kruja culture as a proto-Albanian culture.[67]
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58# ^ a b Fine, JA. The Early medieval Balkans. Univ. of Michigan Press, 1991. p.10. [3]
59# ^ a b c Madgearu A, Gordon M. The wars of the Balkan peninsula. Rowman & Littlefield, 2007. p.146. [4]
60# ^ Turnock, David. The Making of Eastern Europe, from the Earliest Times to 1815. Taylor and Francis, 1988. p.137 [5]
61# ^ a b Fine, JA. The Early medieval Balkans. Univ. of Michigan Press, 1991. p.11. [6]
62# ^ a b The Cambridge ancient history by John Boederman,ISBN 0521224969,2002,page 848
63# ^ The Illyrian Language
64# ^ Madgearu A, Gordon M. The wars of the Balkan peninsula. Rowman & Littlefield, 2007. p.147. [7]
65# ^ Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians. Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 1992, ISBN 0631198075, p. 278. "...likely identification seems to be with a Romanized population of Illyrian origin driven out by Slav settlements further north, the 'Romanoi' mentioned..."
66# ^ Jirecek, Konstantin. "The history of the Serbians" (Geschichte der Serben), Gotha, 1911
67# ^ Madgearu A, Gordon M. The wars of the Balkan peninsula. Rowman & Littlefield, 2007. p.149. [8]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Arguments_against_Illyrian_origin
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The Italo-Albanian villages of southern Italy
By George Nicholas Nasse
Page 43
He says the Italo- Albanians are more intelligent, industrious, ... When the....
Normans arrived in Albania during the thirteenth century they called the region 'Arborea' and refered to people as forest dwellers.
...
books.google.com/books?id=VjArAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA43&dq=Normans+Albanians&hl=en&ei=Q3FGTafPCoaCgAfS0umJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albanian&f=false
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Albania past and present
By Constantine Anastasi Chekrezi
iSee Ch. 9, pp. 94-100; also pp. 111-120.
p.21
In 1081, the Normans, who had already established themselves in Southern Italy and Sicily, invaded, under Robert Guiscard, the territories of Central and Southern Albania. The invasion was undertaken as a means of reprisals against the Emperor of Constantinople with whom Robert had had a family quarrel. It is believed that the Normans are the sponsors of the name "Albania" under which the country has ever since been known to the world.
books.google.com/books?pg=PA27&dq=Normans+Albania&ei=WHNGTd3oBMicgQeR54i-AQ&ct=result&id=MeopAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=false
So the name Albania appears to be a corruption of the name given initially by Normans. Another rabbit has been pulled out of the historical hat it seems. ;D
Albania past and present
By Constantine Anastasi Chekrezi
CHAPTER IV
THE RULE OF THE CASTRIOTAS
p27
I. FEUDAL GOVERNMENT
The interesting feature of Albania at this time is her feudal character, inasmuch as she is the only country of the Balkan Peninsula into which feudalism, in its western European form, was introduced and maintained for a long time. Traces of the feudal regime are still surviving in certain parts of Northern Albania. Feudalism was transplanted in Albania by the Normans and the Crusaders.
books.google.com/books?pg=PA27&dq=Normans+Albania&ei=WHNGTd3oBMicgQeR54i-AQ&ct=result&id=MeopAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=false
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The Normans: Warrior Knights and Their Castles
By Christopher Gravett, David Nicolle
Page 65
From around 1190 to 1216 the first medieval Albanian state won a brief independence under native archons. It would be interesting to know if any of these claimed "Frankish" or Norman decent. Certainly when the Angevins ol southern Italy created a puppet Albanian state in 1272 many local lords adapted feudal titles and adapted associated forms of behavior.
...
books.google.com/books?id=83yTb7exBMcC&pg=PA64&dq=Maniakes+to+Albania&hl=en&ei=D3pGTeiPC4TqgQezn8GSAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%20Albanian&f=false
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The Normans: Warrior Knights and Their Castles
By Christopher Gravett, David Nicolle
P64
Many such mercenaries settled in Byzantium and founded long-lasting military families. ... A group of warrior families called the Maniakates, descended from Normans serving the great Byzantine general Maniakes, settled in Albania. ...
books.google.com/books?id=83yTb7exBMcC&pg=PA64&dq=Maniakes+settled+in+Albania&hl=en&ei=pX5GTZHxMcKSgQfvhIXHAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Maniakes%20settled%20in%20Albania&f=false
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So huge number of troops, entire economic system set up by Normans unique in Balkans and name Albania given by Normans is what we have insofar.
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The Italo-Albanian villages of southern Italy
By George Nicholas Nasse
Page 43
He says the Italo- Albanians are more intelligent, industrious, ... When the....
Normans arrived in Albania during the thirteenth century they called the region 'Arborea' and refered to people as forest dwellers.
...
books.google.com/books?id=VjArAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA43&dq=Normans+Albanians&hl=en&ei=Q3FGTafPCoaCgAfS0umJAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albanian&f=false
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Albania past and present
By Constantine Anastasi Chekrezi
iSee Ch. 9, pp. 94-100; also pp. 111-120.
p.21
In 1081, the Normans, who had already established themselves in Southern Italy and Sicily, invaded, under Robert Guiscard, the territories of Central and Southern Albania. The invasion was undertaken as a means of reprisals against the Emperor of Constantinople with whom Robert had had a family quarrel. It is believed that the Normans are the sponsors of the name "Albania" under which the country has ever since been known to the world.
books.google.com/books?pg=PA27&dq=Normans+Albania&ei=WHNGTd3oBMicgQeR54i-AQ&ct=result&id=MeopAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=false
So the name Albania appears to be a corruption of the name given initially by Normans. Another rabbit has been pulled out of the historical hat it seems. ;D
Albania past and present
By Constantine Anastasi Chekrezi
CHAPTER IV
THE RULE OF THE CASTRIOTAS
p27
I. FEUDAL GOVERNMENT
The interesting feature of Albania at this time is her feudal character, inasmuch as she is the only country of the Balkan Peninsula into which feudalism, in its western European form, was introduced and maintained for a long time. Traces of the feudal regime are still surviving in certain parts of Northern Albania. Feudalism was transplanted in Albania by the Normans and the Crusaders.
books.google.com/books?pg=PA27&dq=Normans+Albania&ei=WHNGTd3oBMicgQeR54i-AQ&ct=result&id=MeopAAAAYAAJ#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=false
------
The Normans: Warrior Knights and Their Castles
By Christopher Gravett, David Nicolle
Page 65
From around 1190 to 1216 the first medieval Albanian state won a brief independence under native archons. It would be interesting to know if any of these claimed "Frankish" or Norman decent. Certainly when the Angevins ol southern Italy created a puppet Albanian state in 1272 many local lords adapted feudal titles and adapted associated forms of behavior.
...
books.google.com/books?id=83yTb7exBMcC&pg=PA64&dq=Maniakes+to+Albania&hl=en&ei=D3pGTeiPC4TqgQezn8GSAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%20Albanian&f=false
-------
The Normans: Warrior Knights and Their Castles
By Christopher Gravett, David Nicolle
P64
Many such mercenaries settled in Byzantium and founded long-lasting military families. ... A group of warrior families called the Maniakates, descended from Normans serving the great Byzantine general Maniakes, settled in Albania. ...
books.google.com/books?id=83yTb7exBMcC&pg=PA64&dq=Maniakes+settled+in+Albania&hl=en&ei=pX5GTZHxMcKSgQfvhIXHAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Maniakes%20settled%20in%20Albania&f=false
___________
So huge number of troops, entire economic system set up by Normans unique in Balkans and name Albania given by Normans is what we have insofar.
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Why dont you actually read my sources? what do you have to say against the fact that Albanian share cognates with Dacian? what do you have to say against the fact that the earliest loanwords in Albanian is from Doric greek? Your google books quotes does nowhere state that Albanians have their origin outside the Balkans. However, my academic sources clearly state that its consider "established" that Albanians originated in the Balkans. What do you have to say against my sources? wich clearly disprove all your statements?
I already covered the topics as far as lack of substantial Greek influence on Albanian language which itself suggests non-illyrian origin. Nothing can say anything conclusive about Albanians cause they are an enigma and their origins remain an enigma and appear associated in a great way with Normans. Dacian connection is assumed by rather inconclusive deductive logic then by any other reasoning and it could easily have to do with assimilating local migrating Vlachs more then anything else. There is no way any Dacians maintained their separate linguistic identity until 11 century AD and then Albanians appear considering that region of roughly Dacia encountered numerous Germanic (Gepids, Goths etc), Turkic (Pechenegs, Cumans, Bulgars etc) and Slavic invasions and was perhaps by far the most unstable of regions in Europe.
Let me see, so you base all your ridiculous statements on the word Albania, wich is a early proto-european wich refers to snow covered mountains in Latin? Do i have to enlighten you that Scotland for example was called Albania during middle ages, with your logic we must have our origin their also. Do have to enlighten you that there is no modem serious historian/linguist who claim that Albanian have it origin outside the Balkans? Do i have to enlighten you that our language clearly proves that we originated in the Balkans? again, instead of quoting wikipedia which nowhere claim Albanians have their origin outside of Balkans, can you please try disprove my ACADEMIC sources?
I am not saying that Albanian populace is non-Balkan in origin which clearly genetics if anything else prove that they are Balkanic in origin. What I am saying is that your language is likely introduced by people brought by Normans from possibly Armenian direction (considering the influenced of Persian words). It appears to be the more recent non-Balkan intruder. The name of Albania did not exist for the same country today until it was introduced by Normans and it seems corruption of original Norman name
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People who entered Balkans and who could have each easily decimated small proto-albanian (linguistically speaking only) population that might have existed there at the time in related areas;
- Serbs slavize massive numbers of mountain dwelling Vlachs
(so mountain dwelling population would not be immune)
- Bulgars get slavized and then slavize massive numbers of Vlachs
- Gepids settle in Dacia only to be destroyed by their kin (Lombards)
- Avars wrech chaos across Balkans and threaten the city itself
(Yet Albanian handfulls are safe and sound  )
- Turkic Cumans and Pechenegs (1000 to 1300 AD enter Balkans through Dacia.
(roughly same time Albanians appear)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Balkans
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LOL. So many emotions here. Waves keep on coming.
Reminiscent of a pond where a rock was dropped into.
I need to be scholar to say what I am saying?
Are you guys serious!
Do you have any ounce of logic contained within you or are you just capable of regurgitating info that you have read by others?
If the second is true then I am obviously talking to a wind.
What will happen, ...you geniuses you... , is that real genuine scholars will come across what is written and access what does and what does not make sense and center their focus on what does make sense.
These real scholars are genuine only if they do not follow someones propaganda so it is best they are independent. So what if someone has a degree when he has to be politically correct about certain historical subjects versus about writing his or hers genuine logical deductions using available historical data. Thankfully I am no historical scholar or a professor of history (nor trying to be one) in some renown University so there is no one to address to stop this research from being given some real attention in the future.
Whatever I posted was written by several different writers in regards to Normans while Albanian origins do remain an enigma and while no separate remains.
This is the data that appears to remain true or is true
01-Normans come full force in Albania.
02-Normans set sights on the city (Constantinople) itself.
03-Normans were active in Armenia and 'blanketed' some natives.
04-Blanketed natives were at least part of the Normans.
05-Albanian has a surprisingly noticeable Persian influence
06-Armenia was and is area of strong Persian cultural influence.
07-Normans gave Albania its name.
08-Normans gave Albania its feudal system (unique in Balkans).
09-Some major leading Albanian families are Norman in origin.
10-Albanians appear on historical scene at the same time as Normans.
11-No remains of Albanians before Normans exist in Balkans.
12-Normans appear and remain as the most strongest connection.
I have read the Latin words in Albanian and they do appear in Montenegrin speech as well. Our presence is more noted in meaning we clearly predate you (as far as historical records go... you know... logic) and you have assimilated many in northern Albania (Scodra was our capital until the coming of Turks). So we could easily be the source and or Albanized local Vlachs.
First Illyrian was attempted to appear as connection by whatever politically motivated establishment (that since the days of Austro-Hungary) which wants to make you appear as native to the area. Then later it became clear that there are no remains of separate 'agreeable' Illyrian language to compare Albanian to. Greek influence on the area was staggering and Phrygian can be connected but neither one works for you as neither do Venetic or Messapian.
Second, only briefly, Thracian was attempted but remains from Bessi do not fit either. Greek influence on the area was staggering and Phrygian can be connected but neither one works again.
Third, Dacian seems more agreeable on the surface (for those asleep at least) since it is more north and thus more isolated. But Dacia was region that was chronically unstable and where some obscene tribe (too small to be recorded by historian!?) survived Gepids, Lombards, Maguars, Bulgars, Pechenegs, Cumans, various Slavs, Avars etc and these are just names of more known people who invited the area. The area proposed is NE Serbia and NW Bulgaria today. This is area that was attached by all of these plus by Serbs (who slavized Vlachs) yet Albanians remained?
Norman is the only theory that clearly explains Albanians on many levels.
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