Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 3, 2010 9:32:44 GMT -5
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 3, 2010 9:34:57 GMT -5
Sadly, i suppose in 50 years the old Serbian way of speech of those western Bulgarians will be lost.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Dec 3, 2010 11:21:15 GMT -5
Would you care to provide some actual sources instead of posting some excerpt from a discussion on wiki?
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Dec 3, 2010 11:42:27 GMT -5
Shejtani, that's how the scholars and linguists outside of Serbia see things.  Kriv strikes me as a hypocrite. |
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 3, 2010 16:19:47 GMT -5
^ You are a hypocrite, who are you fooling, Shejtani?
The dialects of the Prizren—Timok [i.e. Torlakian] zone have evolved from the easternmost group of Štokavian dialects. Their Serbo-Croatian origin is clearly testified by those characteristics given in § 5 [that is, the characteristics of the Western South Slavonic dialects also present in Torlakian], and their belonging to the Štokavian dialectal group is manifested through the presence of Štokavian innovations such as *skj, *stj, *zgj, *zdj > št, žđ; čr- > cr-, vь > u-, and vs- > sv-, and on the other hand, through the lack of innovations that occur in Čakavian and Kajkavian dialects. The difference between these dialects and their southeastern and eastern neighbouring dialects of the Macedonian and Bulgarian languages, was clear and strong even during the time of Slavonic migrations to the Balkans (§ 5). However, differences between Torlakian and Štokavian were even not present at all at first. These dialects were barely distinct from the present-day Kosovo—Resava dialect (which, after all, is still lively connected to this dialectal group, cf. § 101). The only significant phonetic specific was the change l̩ > lu in a few cases, however only existent in Prizren—South Morava area. It is very specific that yat here, like elsewhere in Štokavian dialects, before being rendered became closer than vowel /ɛ/, which is supported by the state in Krašovan dialect, which originates from this area (§ 220)."
"§ 126. The central event in the later evolution of the dialects from the Prizren—Timok zone was the appearance of the so-called balkanisms, characteristics specific for other Balkan languages, Slavonic and non-Slavonic. (The significance of these features is pretty high, giving that none of the mentioned Prizren—Timok archaisms makes an absolute boundary toward the standard Štokavian type: the reflex of semivowel is preserved as a distinct phoneme in many speeches of the Zeta—Sjenica dialect as well, the syllabic l in almost all Prizren—Timok speeches has evolved into /u/ after all in a few examples, and the final -l hasn’t been left unaltered on the whole area of this dialectal zone.) The lack of pitch oppositions (of quality as well as quantity), the analytic comparison, and the doubled use of personal pronouns is also found in the Greek, Romanian, Albanian, Bulgarian, and Macedonian languages. The same can be applied to omitting the infinitive. The analytic principle exists in Bulgarian and Macedonian declensions, too. Modern Greek, Romanian, and Albanian declensions show these simplifications as well, and tend to use a reduced number of grammatical cases. The usage of the three postpositive pronouns is common in most of the Macedonian dialects, and in other Macedonian dialects and the huge majority of Bulgarian ones the true postpositive article has evolved. The true origin of each of these characteristics is not clear yet, but it is certain that they have been transmitted from one Balkan language into another. It is clear that these balkanisms in the Prizren—Timok dialect have not evolved spontaneously, but have rather been brought from the neighbouring languages. [...] After all, it is clear that the dialects of the Prizren—Timok zone have entered the Balkansprachbund not sooner than the 15th century. Therefore, the main isoglosses that connect the Prizren—Timok dialects with the Bulgarian and Macedonian languages are chronologically only secondary in relation to those that show their connections with other Štokavian dialects. Thus they, even though they may be important for the typological characterization of the dialects, yet mean nothing when it comes to their origin. (Although the structural phenomena may be linguistically important, it cannot be used as a criteria for defining the connections between language types. [...] If only structural criteria was taken in count, one would have acquired most absurd conclusions, e.g. that Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects are closer to Aromanian and Romanian than Slavonic languages.)"
— Pavle Ivić, "Dijalektologija srpskohrvatskog jezika" (The Dialectology of the Serbo-Croatian language).
A linguist by the name of N. van Wijk has demonstrated that Torlakian/Shopski are basically Serbo-Croatian through its phonological, morphological, innovating and conservative features.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 3, 2010 21:02:54 GMT -5
Pyrro, the BuLgari call the Serbian Shopski language as village speak and uneducated speak
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162 
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Post by ioan on Dec 4, 2010 0:44:32 GMT -5
novi, stop posting serbian sources. no one cares about velikoserbian propaganda
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Post by terroreign on Dec 4, 2010 4:48:52 GMT -5
Touche lol...but since then I've actually researched and gotten more knowledge on the context of the linguistic situation there (also I've taken an intense Linguistics class at my university), and it definitely changed my perception on the subject. If you accept the scholarly belief that these languages/dialects "lost" their declensions, it would be safe to assume they once had them...thus Torlak did emerge from Serbian. |
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Post by odel on Dec 4, 2010 6:00:45 GMT -5
Touche lol...but since then I've actually researched and gotten more knowledge on the context of the linguistic situation there (also I've taken an intense Linguistics class at my university), and it definitely changed my perception on the subject. If you accept the scholarly belief that these languages/dialects "lost" their declensions, it would be safe to assume they once had them...thus Torlak did emerge from Serbian. I agree Kosovar Serbs are not Bulgarians. Kosovar Serbs have a certain look and I know if the person is a Kosovar Serb or not just by looking at them. They usually have broad, short faces and they have one facial expression on their face all the time, similar to the "Who just farted?" Expression. They are pretty broadly built but also pretty short. Actually it's not unusual that I tower about a head above these people. They're pretty different from the Serbs/Bosniaks/Croats I have met that are from BiH. |
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 4, 2010 6:31:11 GMT -5
^^^
i dont know dude, all i have seen is that the monks at Decani are huge, Dragan Tarlac was like at the same height with them.
Odel are you albo? because if yes, then an albo talking about height is like an anecdote.
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Post by odel on Dec 4, 2010 10:11:55 GMT -5
^^^ i dont know dude, all i have seen is that the monks at Decani are huge, Dragan Tarlac was like at the same height with them. Odel are you albo? because if yes, then an albo talking about height is like an anecdote. Dragan Tarlac looks much taller here www.kosovo.net/images/eplong_01v.jpg Also yes, I am Albanian. And Albos talking about height is no anecdote, especially if the Albo talking about height is Kosovar, Northern-Alb or Gheg generally. |
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Post by ljubotan on Dec 4, 2010 10:37:50 GMT -5
Kosovar Serbs resemble Macedonians the most. For the very most part, they're much shorter than the typical Montenegrin/Bosnian Serb, and they the ladies have a more rounded face with smaller hands. They're local Serbian traditions (weddings, etc) are also very tightly linked with Macedonians. I would assume this is due to Byzantine rule, as those were lands controlled by them for sometime and that's where you can see the truiest form of Serbian Orthodoxy performed. Kosovar Serbs like Macedonians were always baptized in churches even during communist times, where western Serbs did not practice that on the avg. To this day you have many Montenegrin Serbs and Bosnian Serbs who don't get baptized but obviously do consider themselves Orthodox. Some wait until they get older like in their 40's 50's and then get baptized in Ostrog.
In conclusion, Kosovar Serbs (minus Pec, Decani, Djakovica) all have demeanors as southeastern Serbs and macedonians = Torlaks.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 4, 2010 14:13:33 GMT -5
^^^ alright i see you have repeated the term "bosnian/montenegrin" in more than one occasion, which lets me ask you: how about the rest of Serbs (Sumadija, Timok, Bor, Kladovo, Banat, Backa, Srem, Zlatibor )  How would classify KiM/Mak Serbs against them? Personally between Nis and Kragujevac i didnt notice any substantial physical differences. |
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Post by Novi Pazar on Dec 4, 2010 17:53:56 GMT -5
This is what l mean with YAT and E
Bu-L-garski:
nYAma da Hodime
Vardarian:
nEma da odime
Serbian:
nEma da odimo
Anyway, lets have a look at Vardarian Torlakian from Kumanovo/Kratovo/St. Nikole:
Zemev GA ONI prljakat (They took the donkey foal)
The Serbian *GA ONI* is present!.
or
Kolko pare si prodaja krave GA Nastradin
How much did you sell the cows for asked Nastradin.
Again the GA is present
Lets have a look at Torlakian in Bugarska, VIDIN:
Darvo GA isekemo
We cut the wood (the serbian GA is present).
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Post by ulf on Dec 4, 2010 19:31:40 GMT -5
^^^ alright i see you have repeated the term "bosnian/montenegrin" in more than one occasion, which lets me ask you: how about the rest of Serbs (Sumadija, Timok, Bor, Kladovo, Banat, Backa, Srem, Zlatibor ) How would classify KiM/Mak Serbs against them? Personally between Nis and Kragujevac i didnt notice any substantial physical differences. Pyrros, I think I already said once, but here it goes...Sumadija, North-West parts of western Serbia and Vojvodina have like 60% of central European(Slavic) looking folks out of total Serb population there. South parts of Serbia don't have as much as aforementioned do, they are definitively more Atlanto-Mediterranean and dinaric |
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Post by terroreign on Dec 4, 2010 19:57:58 GMT -5
^Actually I'd like to say that Sumadinci and the central Serbs look basically like the dinarics, just shorter! Not to mention majority there today descend from Herc/CG.
I think it's the Vojvodina Serbs that appear to have the most Slavic/Germanic looks, and to me this is without a doubt due to intermarriage with Hungarians.
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Post by ulf on Dec 4, 2010 20:13:29 GMT -5
^Actually I'd like to say that Sumadinci and the central Serbs look basically like the dinarics, just shorter! Not to mention majority there today descend from Herc/CG. I think it's the Vojvodina Serbs that appear to have the most Slavic/Germanic looks, and to me this is without a doubt due to intermarriage with Hungarians. Completely wrong. Some Vojvodina Serbs might intermarried with Germans and Slovaks, as they used to be two most numerous groups. Sumadinci dont look like Crnogorci. A few examples of typical Sumadinci:      Crnogorci in my opinion have somewhat darker complexes then Sumadinci and they are somewhat taller. Not the big difference though |
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Post by terroreign on Dec 4, 2010 21:22:10 GMT -5
Haha ma daj bre, Dragan Djilas? Vuk Kostic? To su svi iz Crne Gore brate, Djilasi Vasojevici (Milovan Djilas), Kostici iz Pive i sa Ceva!! Nije ni sporno da u drugom svjetskom ratu pola sumadije su ubijali nemci i poslije su doselili Srbi sa zapada, danas jesu Sumandinci al nisu ti originalni...
Slovaks and Germans most numerous? Hah, it was the Madjari bre, they used to be much bigger in Vojvodina population 200 years ago. I zbog njih imamo rijeci poput 'varos' 'astal' itd....al opet potvrdim, ako iko izgleda kao da su iz severne evrope u Srbiji to su ti Vojvodjani...tipovi koji piju banatski rizling i misle da su moderniji od ostalih Srba
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 5, 2010 1:59:56 GMT -5
^^^ alright i see you have repeated the term "bosnian/montenegrin" in more than one occasion, which lets me ask you: how about the rest of Serbs (Sumadija, Timok, Bor, Kladovo, Banat, Backa, Srem, Zlatibor ) How would classify KiM/Mak Serbs against them? Personally between Nis and Kragujevac i didnt notice any substantial physical differences. Pyrros, I think I already said once, but here it goes...Sumadija, North-West parts of western Serbia and Vojvodina have like 60% of central European(Slavic) looking folks out of total Serb population there. South parts of Serbia don't have as much as aforementioned do, they are definitively more Atlanto-Mediterranean and dinaric any published studies or just self experience? |
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Post by odel on Dec 5, 2010 10:29:43 GMT -5
Indeed he could pass for an Albanian with no particular problems. The others couldn't pass for Albanians. Especially Dragan Dilas, that guy looks as Polish as you gan get. Same with the girl.
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;D : 