Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 7, 2011 13:59:21 GMT -5
Now here in Australia, the soccer league known as the NSL (today the A-League). The Croatians had teams known as Sydney Croatia, Melbourne Croatia etc...The slavs of Vardar had Preston Macedonia etc...while the Serbs and other loyal Yugoslavs only had J.U.S.T. As a kid in the mid to late 80's, l've been to many games where fights would break out between the Croatians and the Yugoslavs. I remember one Australian Macedonian explaining this Aussie football politics to me. He was an "Aegean" Mac, that is his parents were from the Kastoria area of Greece and he was telling me how he and his Aegean buddies would support the Croats against the Serb, Greek teams. He had quite a low opinion of the Vardarski Macs btw and was enraged by their sheepish behaviour and low self-esteem. One of his examples - he is in a group with Vardarskis, speaking in Makedonski. A Serb arrives and the Vardarskis switch to Serbian... They were ready to forego their own language for the benefit of a _single_ Serb. Ironically the first victim of the ex-yu wars was a makedonian, crushed by a croat mob...
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Post by ljubotan on Feb 7, 2011 16:07:33 GMT -5
The Gusle has always been absent in Macedonia, and St. Sava day was only introduced after WWI.
Novi - Ostrog Monastir for instance, it's very well known to Serbs but very unknown to Slavs of Macedonia. My parents have no clue or grandparents (God bless them) who Vasilije Ostroski was. There is not a continous link of Serbdom into Macedonia, instead its inconsistent and skechy (commenting on Vardar as a whole not the Serb minority, even though many of them also fall into that category).
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Post by terroreign on Feb 7, 2011 16:40:42 GMT -5
Yet macedonians all know about Marko Kraljevic, Car Lazar and Obilic...for sure their great grandfathers played Gusle too
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Post by kroraina on Feb 7, 2011 17:14:26 GMT -5
Yet macedonians all know about Marko Kraljevic, Car Lazar and Obilic...for sure their great grandfathers played Gusle too Krali Marko is well known in songs from Bulgaria as well. Here is what one English traveller (a Bulgarophobe and Turcophile one at that - converted to Islam later!) recorded in the 1860's from NE Bulgaria, Varna district : " ... there are plenty of original and unadulterated songs amongst the Bulgarians, and that the people themselves deny the authenticity of the Servian versions, saying when they are read to them 'Toi Arnaoutskie Piesni,' these are Albanian songs;' and we shall therefore have the honour of introducing some songs 'never before published,' either in England or elsewhere, and which are translated exactly word for word. ... The Bulgarian historical traditions, except in the form of songs, are not numerous; the following is one of the most curious: - Once upon a time the world was peopled only by heroes and Zmieje (dragons), and of all the former Deli or Kral (King) Marko was by far the stoutest and strongest. One day the Devil was amusing himself with his great mace of wood bound with iron, of the weight of 100 okes (280 lbs.), throwing it up into the air and catching it again with one hand. Deli Marko found him thus employed and wished him good morning very politely.
“Hosh geldin,” 'Welcome,' said his Majesty. “Hosh bouldouk,” 'Well found,' replied the hero.
After these and other necessary compliments, Deli Marko asked the Devil what he was doing there.
“You see, I am practising throwing this mace into the air and catching it: it's for the Pehlivanlik (Championship).” “Let's try together,” suggested Deli Marko. “With all my heart, go and take your place.” And the Devil hurled his mace 100 yards, but Deli Marko caught it in the air like a cricket-ball. “Bravo indeed,” cried Satan, clapping his hands, ... Another one: KING MARKO AND THE DAUGHTER OF PHILIP THE MAGYAR. [Hungarian.]
King Marko the foreigner Throws up his grey falcon In the Palace of Philip the Magyar.
It perches on the knee of Philip the Magyar And sees seventy-seven Kings Who are eating and drinking.
And King Marko stops on the threshold And whistles his grey falcon from the knee of Philip the Magyar. It perches on the knee of King Marko, And says to King Marko, "In the Palace of Philip the Magyar There are seventy-seven Kings eating and drinking." ... (from: "Residence in Bulgaria", St. Clair and Brophy, London, 1869) The original Bulgarian text on another similar song is here: FILIP JUNAK I DELI MARKO.
Pochwalil sia Filip Junak Hej Kulada moi Kulada! Po siedanki na pred mumita, Hej Kulada moj Kulada Po bielanki na pred bulkite, Hej Kulada moj Kulada! Na Tulcanie pred mumey, Hej Kulada moj Kulada! Swierdzyl try Zmieje. Hej Kulada, &c. Gdie go zaczyt Deli Marko, ... -------------------- Just to correct another minor inaccuracy I spotted in your post - there is no "Tsar Lazar". There was a "knez" (prince) Lazar, later to be "kral" (i.e. king) Lazar, but he was not a "tsar". If you catch my drift...
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Post by terroreign on Feb 7, 2011 17:19:17 GMT -5
^And bulgarians having folk tales about Serbian princes just works in favor of Pyross' and many historians' theory that western Bulgarians are just Serbs.
Modern Bulgarians just a mix of Serbs and Turkic Bulgars? Huge possibility
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Post by kroraina on Feb 7, 2011 18:00:44 GMT -5
^And bulgarians having folk tales about Serbian princes you are probably aware that this epos is older than the XIV c., i.e. predates the historical figure of Krali Marko, the Ottoman vassal? What do we read here? "Marco principe di Bulgaria"? And further? : Bosna slavi Regliu Bosegnanina Segn bijeli Ivu Segnanina Ungaria Sibignianin Janka Bulgaria Kraglievichia MarkaErczegovczi Milosc Kobilichia Arvachiani Bana Zrinovichia Sve kraine dva Ivanovichia ...
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Post by terroreign on Feb 7, 2011 21:09:27 GMT -5
Kroraina it is 'internationally recognized' (as Asen would say) that Marko is a Serb. But if you want to imitate your brother Fryomians and claim historical figures that aren't yours go ahead. It's just more ammo to pyrros and novi.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 7, 2011 22:20:59 GMT -5
^ Thats right Krivo.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 7, 2011 22:32:55 GMT -5
"Modern Bulgarians just a mix of Serbs and Turkic Bulgars? Huge possibility"
The Western Bugari not the rest of the BuLgari are Serbs. Krivo, why in the hell did famous serbian historical figures die and were layed to rest in western bugarska. Why did the Turks ALSO include the whole of western bugarska into the restored patriarchate of Pech in the 16th century. Why were there many Serbian topoynms in western bugarska till the second world war, i.e, Srpsko Samokov and finally why is the dialect of the western bugari so damn close to standard serbian just like the torlakian speech in northern vardarska banovina.
To be honest with you, the whole of Bulgaria is questionable except where the Turkish Bulgarians first established their Abode (capital) in todays Pliska (N.E BuLgarska).
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 8, 2011 0:19:35 GMT -5
^And bulgarians having folk tales about Serbian princes just works in favor of Pyross' and many historians' theory that western Bulgarians are just Serbs. Modern Bulgarians just a mix of Serbs and Turkic Bulgars? Huge possibility The only thing i noticed is that phonetically "JA" is far more distant to "E" than "JE" is to "E". In BiH/SRB you have e.g. Bijeljina who speak an hybrid dialect between Ekavica (they say Vrijeme but Vesti) and they dont intonate "je" so much as the western Bosnians or the CrnaGorci. Same thing in Loznica (but more Ekavicized). In Bulgaria it was a shock to hear adjacent people pronouncing either JA or E! This is far from ordinary.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 8, 2011 2:46:03 GMT -5
I dont have any particular theory, and also i doubt *ANY* serb would want to engage in a meaningless struggle for smth lost or transformed many years ago. My main aim was to show to the Tatars how ugly it is what they do by making them taste their own poison.
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Post by rusebg on Feb 8, 2011 4:29:10 GMT -5
Careful here, Kroraina. You might consider this as a solid evidence but not Pazar. He claims Varna as a Serbian city.
He was a Serbian prince from a Bulgarian origin and the people who ruled over were Bulgarians in their vast number. Anyway, I never claimed him, he was a pitiful person who does not deserve a single row of admiration, let alone this huge amount of folklore dedicated to him.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 8, 2011 4:54:19 GMT -5
AFAIK Bulgarians also sang (or still sing?) songs about the Serbian princes from Hercegovina who fell in the battle of Marica, where Serbs/Bulgarians combined tried to defeat the Turkish army.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 8, 2011 4:54:35 GMT -5
Careful here, Kroraina. You might consider this as a solid evidence but not Pazar. He claims Varna as a Serbian city. Just stop claiming Makedonia and Serbia and i can assure you that Novi will not say a word against you, ever again. DEAL?
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Post by terroreign on Feb 8, 2011 5:06:59 GMT -5
Careful here, Kroraina. You might consider this as a solid evidence but not Pazar. He claims Varna as a Serbian city. He was a Serbian prince from a Bulgarian origin and the people who ruled over were Bulgarians in their vast number. Anyway, I never claimed him, he was a pitiful person who does not deserve a single row of admiration, let alone this huge amount of folklore dedicated to him. He was of Serbian origin, and this is not disputed. You say you're not claiming him, but what you're doing is anything but. Pitiful to you, but legendary to millions upon millions in the Balkans. books.google.com/books?id=M7-Hnxo8vtQC&pg=PA92&dq=Marko,+The+King%27s+Son:+Hero+of+The+Serbs&hl=en&ei=hBVRTf6lMorZgQeA3OG7CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false Here do a little reading brate
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 8, 2011 5:54:20 GMT -5
^^ That's their style, they attack even when they pretend to be retreating. How on earth could someone make a decent deal with those guys?
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Post by rusebg on Feb 8, 2011 6:42:40 GMT -5
Sources say this and that. The thing is that sources (you read Kroraina's ones) that claim him as a Bulgarian king are earlier than the more numerous ones that claim him as Serbian. But ok, take him. I am not discussing him any more.
Legendary, my ar.se. Why don't you try to read at least a little bit about his real life and then speak? He is just like Tsar Ivan Shishman for whom there are some songs gloryfying him fighting the Turks, while the truth is that he didn't wage a single battle against them. Isn't it time you start making a difference between folklore and actual history?
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 8, 2011 8:47:04 GMT -5
The terms "truth" and "rusebg" in the same sentence is a contradiction.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on Feb 8, 2011 10:14:28 GMT -5
Kriv, read what Kroraina posted carefully: Do notice that the quote above speaks about Bulgaria in general, AND, the example excerpts are of songs from North Eastern Bulgaria. Were you able to get that Kriv? I’ve noticed that you’re not insanely retarded like Gyrro, or a complete moron like Pazar.. however, you could be a bit slow at times. You exhibit characteristics of a person who is talking out of his ass in all discussions pertaining to this topic. My suggestion to you is to get yourself better acquainted with the history of the region and what different sources have to say instead of trying to devise your own personal theories that clearly seem to be based on (or at least, highly influenced by) some old school propaganda. Your statement below is a clear indication of that.. Ironically, I think you partially believe this to be true. Just goes to show how little you know bro. Really? Ok, so then I guess this would mean their theories hold true for ALL of Bulgaria!? Even North Eastern Bulgaria huh? I mean those guys are such retards that I wouldn’t be surprised if they support your theory that Bulgarians are nothing more but a mix of Serbs and Turks. Pazar did claim Plovdiv as an exclusively Serbian city a while back if I’m not mistaken. Tsk tsk such ignorance.. Oooh my my.. Many historians have concluded that now, have they? Would you care to provide some neutral/independent sources? And yes, that means internationally recognized.. not some Serbian BS. And since they clearly sang songs praising Krali Marko, they must have been Serbs as well huh.. WOW could it be!? Am I more Serbian than you are? LOL I can probably speak and understand the language better than you Pazar, that’s for sure.. but I ain’t a Serb, and neither are the Bulgarians in Western Bulgaria or Macedonia for that matter. Hmmm why oh why did these supposed “South Serbs”, mainly from Macedonia, fight AGAINST the Serb who forcefully occupied Macedonia? I really wonder.. why would they fight their supposed brothers with the same ferocity as they fought against the Turks!? How moronic you are Pazar, it’s so pathetic it’s funny. Bwaahahaha *CLOWN*. Wait, scratch that, RETARDED CLOWN. Gyrro, the retard clown.. sounds so right. The Bulgarian character of Macedonia and it’s people is a well recorded fact. STFU you dimwitted retard. It seems you think you’ve got some sort of bargaining power.. how pathetic. We have NOTHING to hide. Let’s get it all out in the open. I’m here, and anything you want to post, I’ll GLADLY address. Take your own advise bro. Get it through your fat head Gyrro; you’re a fucking mouse bro, nothing more.. you’re an insignificant vermin. Well said Ljubotan.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 8, 2011 10:29:18 GMT -5
^^^ Idiotic trans Aziz, we gotta design some robot to deal with you on equal terms. Having real humans confront you is a criminal waste of resources.
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