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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 2:00:16 GMT -5
Montenegrin genetics ("DNK analiza Crnogoraca") I have been following some time topic "DNK analiza Crnogoraca" in cafemontenegro started by our former member Bosniaco and I must say it is rather interesting forum.cafemontenegro.com/showthread.php?t=69873Basic idea is that according to 400+ samples from Montenegro that Montenegrins are 29.2% - haplotype I2a, ( Dinaric natives? western Montenegro) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%2927% - haplotype E1b1b, (eastern Montenegro) (represents parts of Greek,Phoenician and later Illyrian populations and its most present in Kosovo, Albania and parts of Greece, especially Peloponnese (where this type originated from 4500-5000 years ago), and FYROM). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E1b1b9.4% - haplotype R1b, (western European associated with celts and germanics). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1b7.4% - haplotype R1a, (central european, slavic homeland?) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R1a4.7% - haplotype J2a. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%294.5% - haplotype J2b, that together with J2a started in Mesopotamia, and further spreads to Greece and Asia Minor. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_%28Y-DNA%29issuu.com/bosniaco/docs/mirabal_et_al_2010
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Post by terroreign on Jan 12, 2011 2:07:46 GMT -5
^So according to this neat little study we're 10% middle-eastern? wtf...
This same study says this -
Population I2a R1a E1b1b R1b Albania 17.0 9.8 27.0 17.6
Which says that Albanians actually are more Slavic than us, and less Dinaric. lol
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 2:14:34 GMT -5
This promptly eliminated Slavs as any substantial (almost fully) ancestors of present Montenegrins and makes Celtic impact even bigger and both are easily dwarfed by genetic footprint of the pre-slavic natives (Greeks and local originally Helllenophone Dinarics). Since Slavs (their neo-danubian anthropological type, not surprisingly, follows to a step distribution of R1a in east Europe) are eliminated from the equation almost fully then this by logical deduction would eliminate even more their Sarmatian elite (mostly of Iranian dolico-cephalic type) which would have been in the minority among the Slavs to begin with.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 2:21:21 GMT -5
J2 is around 18,500 years old. It originated from Mesopotamia to move to Greece and there becomes one of the types associated with Greeks as far as we are concerned (so that surely makes easily three types associated with Greeks in our area and I would easily include there the so called Dinaric type since Daorsi in what's now Stolac,Hercegovina were fully Hellenic in every way).
Hellenic genetic impact in Montenegro (meaning cultures that were at the oldest known point unquestionably Hellenic) is well over half of the present population.
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Post by terroreign on Jan 12, 2011 2:41:58 GMT -5
^Not so fast, haplogroup I is found at 60% on the island of Hvar, known to be the last vestige of the Avars, a steppe people possible Iranic. Furthermore, this: I2a may very well be linked to the Sarmatians.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 3:06:51 GMT -5
You mean that Avars who were centered in Pannonia. Pannonia which has far less of this genetic impact then Dinaric mountain region (which served as refuge for people fleeing new barbarians). And then you are talking coastal regions which usually housed populations which lived within several walled cities thus isolated from temporary barbarian newcomers which were free to pillage the countryside. From these coastal cities and Dinaric mountains they would have gradually expanded (while becoming gradually slavized since slavs controlled rivers and thus communication) to other areas such as Hvar which might have been easily left desolate during barbarian invasion itself. What confuses you, youngster? Areas like Moldavia and adjacent Ukraine? Ukraine which had many Serbs settled during migrations to colonies such as Slavo Serbia or new Serbia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavo-Serbia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Serbia_%28historical_province%29The site clearly states Balkans as most probable point of origin of this very old type. One more time Since Slavs (their neo-danubian anthropological type, not surprisingly, follows to a step distribution of R1a in east Europe) are eliminated from the equation almost fully then this by logical deduction would eliminate even more their Sarmatian elite (mostly of Iranian dolico-cephalic type) which would have been in the minority among the Slavs to begin with.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 3:30:56 GMT -5
Since you are focused on Ossetians so much read this G2a1 and its one subgroup represent the majority of haplogroup G samples in some parts of the Caucasus Mountains area. G2a1 is found only in tiny numbers elsewhere. The North Ossetian men in the mid northern Caucasus area of Russia, in particular, belong overwhelmingly to the G2a1 subgroup based on available samples more en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a1_%28Y-DNA%29#Geographic_distribution"Nasidze concluded that "Y haplotype data indicate North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other." conclusion: these are sarmatized locals linguistically speaking seems to be the case.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 3:39:38 GMT -5
Nasidze et al., Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians (2004) www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdfSummary
Ossetians are a unique group in the Caucasus, in that they are the only ethnic group found on both the north and south slopes of the Caucasus, and moreover they speak an Indo-European language in contrast to their Caucasian-speaking neighbours. We analyzed mtDNA HV1 sequences, Y chromosome binary genetic markers, and Y chromosome short tandem repeat (Y-STR) variability in three North Ossetian groups and compared these data to published data for two additional North Ossetian groups and for South Ossetians. The mtDNA data suggest a common origin for North and South Ossetians, whereas the Y-haplogroup data indicate that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other. Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. We suggest that a common origin of Ossetians from Iran, followed by subsequent male-mediated migrations from their Caucasian neighbours, is the most likely explanation for these results. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrations as the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 3:46:22 GMT -5
No now it is clear it is Iranians mixed with Caucasus people that made Ossetians. Regarding Iranian genetics read bellow Haplogroup M17, also known as R1a1, has proven to be a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker.[95] The highest R1a1 frequencies are detected in the Central Asian populations of Ishkashemi Tajiks (68%) and Pamiri Tajiks (64%) , both groups being remnants of the original Eastern Iranian population of the region.[95][96] These results relate the relationships of Iranian people with each other, while other comparative testing reveals some varied origins for Iranian people such as the Kurds, who show genetic ties to the Caucasus at considerably higher levels than any other Iranian people except the Ossetians, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#Genetics
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Post by terroreign on Jan 12, 2011 3:52:11 GMT -5
^That just gives more ammo to the idea that the I2 is the Sarmatian gene Those colonies in Ukraine were tiny and short-lived, hardly a good argument behind the I2 present there. You must remember that the Avars were never considered Sarmatians, on the contrary they were at best Iranicized Turks. Thus naturally there was a sort of mixture there. Second, the Avars like the Sarmatians, moved around alot, thus, eventhough they might have been in the Pannonian basin for a period, soon enough they scattered, disappeared. Hvar is noted as being one of the places they fled to, hence the name Hvar (Avar). In the study it specifically states that the island of Hvar is 60% I2, and to add to that: www.nature.com/index.html?file=/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/abs/5200992a.htmlThe study above disproves that....clearly a significant population of Hvar isn't "native"
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 3:58:39 GMT -5
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Post by terroreign on Jan 12, 2011 4:06:30 GMT -5
No now it is clear it is Iranians mixed with Caucasus people that made Ossetians. Regarding Iranian genetics read bellow Haplogroup M17, also known as R1a1, has proven to be a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker.[95] The highest R1a1 frequencies are detected in the Central Asian populations of Ishkashemi Tajiks (68%) and Pamiri Tajiks (64%) , both groups being remnants of the original Eastern Iranian population of the region.[95][96] These results relate the relationships of Iranian people with each other, while other comparative testing reveals some varied origins for Iranian people such as the Kurds, who show genetic ties to the Caucasus at considerably higher levels than any other Iranian people except the Ossetians, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#GeneticsIn Dagestan the I Haplogroup is 58%, in Northern Iran it's at 34%
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 4:12:21 GMT -5
Hvar name has nothing to do with Avar but it is derived from its ancient Greek name (it was a Greek colony) Pharos, Φαρος later to called by Romans Pharia and finally by slavophones Hvar. What you are refering to is bellow study Interestingly, the same population also harbored mitochondrial haplogroup F that is virtually absent in European populations - indicating a connection with Central Asian populations, possibly the Avars. www.white-history.com/avars.htmabout haplogroup F en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_%28Y-DNA%29Again unrelated to our dinarics.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 4:18:56 GMT -5
The second group comprises most southern Slavic populations: Bulgarians, Croats in Dalmatia and Herzegovina, Bosniaks, Macedonians and Serbs, who have a significantly lower frequency of R1a (~15%). According to the authors, this phenomenon is explained by "...contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs..."[26] On the other hand the Subclade I2a1 of Haplogroup I2 (Y-DNA) is typical of western South Slavs, especially Dalmatian Croats and Herzegovinians (45-50%), with high frequency in all South Slavs (>20%).[27] The highest frequency and diversity of Subclade I2a1 among populations of the Western Balkans lends support to the hypothesis that the Adriatic region of modern-day Croatia served as a refuge for populations bearing Haplogroup I2 during the last glacial maximum. The subclade divergence appears to have arisen in the last one thousand to five thousand years.[28] The Y haplogroup E1b1b1a and especially the E-V13 clade is common on the Balkans and some parts of Italy. High frequencies of it (>20%) have been found amongst Bulgarians, Montenegrins, Macedonians, and Serbs.[29][30][31] Phylogenetic analysis strongly suggests that these lineages have spread through Europe, from the Balkans in a "rapid demographic expansion".[32] E-V13 is in any case generally described in population genetics as one of the components, which shows the contribution made by the populations who dispersed the Neolithic technology from the Middle East trough Europe.[33][34][35] Also the mitochondrial gene pools of the Slavonic ethnic groups proved to preserve features suggesting a common ancestor for these and South European populations (especially those of the Balkan Peninsula).[36] Finally, the testing results suggest a common ancestry of all Balkan populations, with a lack of correlation between genetic differentiation and language or ethnicity, stressing that no major migration barriers have existed in the making of the complex Balkan human puzzle.[37][38] The genetic homogeneity among Balkan populations suggests either a most recent common ancestor of all southeastern European populations or strong gene flow between them, which eliminated any initial differences. Taking into account that the region has had a relatively high population density since the Neolithic period and that this region represents a crossroads of routes connecting the cultural centers of Middle East with different European areas.[39] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Genetics
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Post by terroreign on Jan 12, 2011 4:21:47 GMT -5
^What I was attempting to prove there is that, if there managed to be such an abundant non-native haplogroup, somewhere where you'd expect it to be completely native, what's makes the Dinarics so special in that sense.
The fact that people 1000's of years ago moved around so much in Eurasia, makes it difficult to say for sure where the origins of certain types, whether physical or genetic, lie.
This whole theory of Sarmatian masters and Slav servants is very weak. My theory is that Sarmatians were one of the main elements behind the creation of the Slavic peoples. Serbs are simply Sarmatians that gradually had their language evolve being in close contact with these Eastern-European mestizos if you will.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 12, 2011 4:36:43 GMT -5
Slavs are again (Sarmatian or not) associated with R1a and not with any any type in Balkans. Sarmatians, Slavs and slaves as a weak connection? I dont think so. Decline in the 4th century
In their efforts to halt the Gothic expansion on the north of Lower Danube (present-day Romania), the Sarmatians armed their slaves. After the Roman victory, however, the local population revolted against their Sarmatian masters, pushing them beyond the Roman border. Constantine, on whom the Sarmatians had called for help, defeated Limigantes, the leader of the revolt, and moved the Sarmatian population back in. In the Roman provinces, Sarmatian combatants were enlisted in the Roman army, whilst the rest of the population was distributed throughout Thrace, Macedonia and Italy. Origo Constantini mentions 300,000 refugees resulting from this conflict. The emperor Constantine was subsequently attributed the title of Sarmaticus Maximus.[15][17][18][19][20] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians#Decline_in_the_4th_centuryShortly after 4th century Slavs appear on historical scene. "While the Chernyakhov culture (2nd to 5th c. AD, identified with the multi-ethnic kingdom established by the Goths) leads to the decline of the late Sarmatian culture in the 2nd to 4th centuries, the western part of the Przeworsk culture remains intact until the 4th century, and the Kiev culture flourishes during the same time, in the 2nd-5th c. AD. This latter culture is recognized as the direct predecessor of the Prague-Korchak and Pen'kovo cultures (6th-7th c. AD), the first archaeological cultures the bearers of which are indisputably identified as Slavic." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs#Scenarios_of_ethnogenesisNOW AGAIN SLAVIC GENETICS"The frequency of Haplogroup R1a ranges from 63.39% in the Sorbs, through 56.4% in Poland, 54% in Ukraine, 52% in Russia, Belarus, to 15.2% in Republic of Macedonia, 14.7% in Bulgaria and 12.1% in Herzegovina.[" 1. Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[32]
2. However, some southern Slavic populations such as Bulgarians, Serbs and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by "...contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs...."[32]
Marcin Woźniak and colleagues (2010) searched for specifically Slavic sub-group of R1a1a [M17]. Working with haplotypes, they found a pattern among Western Slavs which turned out to correspond to a newly-discovered marker, M458, which defines subclade R1a1a1g. This marker correlates remarkably well with the distribution of Slavic-speakers today.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs#Genetics
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Post by terroreign on Jan 12, 2011 5:36:23 GMT -5
Sorry bro but you're not gonna make me believe that a couple of blonde, eyebrowless Kirilenko's came down and slavicized 93% of the population. That never happened, not in this life or the next.
Also btw it never says there that their slaves were Slavics at all, they could have been a Sarmatian slave class.
The fact that the Slavic culture only clearly comes into appearance in the 4th century is 100% testament to it's mish-mash origin. Sarmatians and the Balts once bordered each other, these people eventually formed one unit and naturally evolved over the centuries.
Dinaroids are physically closest to the Armenoids, and I2 is steadly found through the Balkans, Carpatians, Eastern Germany (Sorbs), the Caucasus and Northern Iran.
The theory adds up as far as I can see.
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Hellenas
Amicus
Father of Gods and of men.
Posts: 432
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Post by Hellenas on Jan 12, 2011 5:53:10 GMT -5
NOW AGAIN SLAVIC GENETICS"The frequency of Haplogroup R1a ranges from 63.39% in the Sorbs, through 56.4% in Poland, 54% in Ukraine, 52% in Russia, Belarus, to 15.2% in Republic of Macedonia, 14.7% in Bulgaria and 12.1% in Herzegovina.[" This means that people of Fyrom, Bulgaria and Herzegovina are only 12,1 to 15,2% Slavs? Or are there more Slavic Haplogroups than R1a? I have also read somewhere that Cretans have some R1a, what do you know about?
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 12, 2011 9:23:44 GMT -5
Admin the figures you posted do not add up to 100%. They add up to 82.2%. Amateur dude.
I2a2 - 29.2% E1b1b - 27% R1b - 9.4% R1a - 7.4% J2a - 4.7% J2b - 4.5%
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 12, 2011 9:34:58 GMT -5
Sorry bro but you're not gonna make me believe that a couple of blonde, eyebrowless Kirilenko's came down and slavicized 93% of the population. That never happened, not in this life or the next. Keep owning bro. See nobody with Admins opinion even dares approach giving an answer to this. I'm torn mostly between a purely slavic origin for the Serbian name and people, and a Sarmatian one. My third preference is that a slavic toungue was native to the Balkans. I exclude as you say a couple of Kirilenkos in a tribe calling them selves Serbs coming along and getting the mighty Dinarics to change their language over from one that probably sounded Albanian. What I find interesting about these results is the fact nothing dominates for a region that is supposedly considered the most heterogenous (Dinaric) region also with a small population. It all reads like bulls**t. Haplogroups are mostly 10's of thousands of years older then any ethnicity. Yet people mostly produce theory as if they where quite specific to older ethnic groups. Nobody is right or wrong on their interpretations at this stage and I can't see how it's even possible to prove them.
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