Albanians are not Illyrian

[ajax]

Historians know that Albanians came from the Caspian Sea, near Caucasus. And that they mixed with Illyrians. Of course, Albanians tend to overlook that detail and assume they descent directly from Illyrians. The Albanians are from the Caucasus, originally. Caucasian Albania was located on the eastern area of the Caucasus between the Caspian sea and the tips of the mountain ranges.

Old Albania was known only for wild dogs and barren snow covered mountains, for which it received the name Albania by foreigners (Alba-white). One of the GREATEST PROOFS that Albanians do come from the Caucasus and that THEY ARE NOT the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians is the Turkish name for the Albanians. "Arnauti", which means "those who have not returned" in Arabic, for the Turks were aware of the origins of the Albanians. And they truly did not return, they stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands. In turn, the Albanians did not use any of those names for themselves, but called themselves "shqiptari". The word "shqip" has many meanings in Albanian. It can mean "eagle" or "rocky hill". Austro-Hungarian anthropologists and philologists in early last century attempted to give the Albanians a noble character and theorized that the "eagle" was the root meaning and totally ignored both modern Albania and Caucasian Albania as rocky, baren and poor places, which would allude to the notion of the former as being the root meaning for naming themselves.

Is this just a greater Serbian quasi-history to cover up the noble Illyrian roots of Albanians? Not according to a contemporary od Maniakos, the Byzantine ruler who brought the Albanians to northern Epirus. Michael Ataliotos describes the events in his chronicle: "Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae". In the republic of Georgia, in the Caucasus, on the territory of the former Caucasian Albania, from where the Avar Khanate once had its capital, there is a village named: "Arnauti". This is the name by which Serbs, Greeks, Turks, FYR-Macedonians and Montenegrin Serbs refer to Albanians in their respective langauges. There is also village in Georgia named "Bushati" - which is the name of an Albanian tribe ("fis") around Lake Skadar. There are three villages named: "Geguti", "Gegeni" and "Gegi". "Ghegheni" is the name designated to Albanians who live north of the Shkumbi River in Albania proper.

[rex362]

shko mor pidh satemes te futesh .....mos i folni ktit

[jonleka]

retards deserve silence

[odel]

I'm not going to disprove the whole post and everything but concerning "Arnaut", it's what the Turks called us Albanians, but "Arnaut" is a more modern word. It was Arnavud before.

[ajax]

The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari". This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR". Taken together with the Shqiptar-Albanian toponyms on the territory of the former Caucasian Albania, this theory on the etymology of "Shqipatr" becomes more plausable.

When Aleander the Great conquered Asia minor, he took with him the great leader of the Albanian tribes and gave him as a present an Albanian dog. Among other things, Caucasian Albania did not attract conquerors, because of its poverty and difficult terrain. With the comming of the Arabs, they converted the Old Albanians in the 8th century to Islam. But meanwhile, at the time, the Arabs were waging campaigns in Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them Old Albanians from the Caucasus. To this day, their descendants live in Sicily.

Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the young Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgius Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercenaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi".

The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers. The original URAL-ALTAIC speaking Caucasian Shqiptar-Albanians were part of the AVAR KHANATE which had one of its early capitals in Caucasian Albania (hence Albanian topnyms there, the possible Ural-Altaic etymology of the suffix in the word "Shqip-tar" and the similarities in national costume with Caucasian peoples - the non-Indo-European Georgians, in particular). The original Shqiptar-Albanian group of AVARS settled in Northern Romania and subjugated the Latin speaking peoples of that area when the Avars entered Europe and conquered most of its Eastern part. Over time they assimilated most of the Latin language of the people they conquered, but imposed their name on their new subjects - just like the Bulg-AR tribe did in Thrace. This explains why modern Albanian has similarities to the Romance languages of Romania. This Ship-tar Av-ar tribe, I believe, moved south as far as Epirus from where the Avars are recorded as staging their failed attack on Constantinople. So, by the time the Avar Khanate was defeated by the armies of Serbs and Croats and Charles the Great in the 7th century, the Avars had reached south as far as EPIRUS from where they based this failed attack on Constantinople!!! In Epirus, this Shqiptar-Avar tribe assimilated the Illyrians and Hellenes of Epirus, as they had done to the Latin speakers of Northern Romania more than a century earlier. While the Avars were driven out of Europe by Charles the Great and killed off by Serbs and Croats in the Balkans in the 7th century, the Serbs NEVER REACHED the south of the Shkumbi until the LATE DARK AGES. The Shqiptar-Avars in Epirus and south of the Shkumbi were left unharmed.

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripedes (480 ? 406 BC) --

[ajax]

The origin of the Albanians has been for some time a matter of dispute among historians. Most historians conclude that the Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians.[1] Little is known about these peoples, and they blended into one another in Thraco-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian contact zones even in antiquity.

The Albanians first appear in the historical record in Byzantine sources of the late 11th century. At this point, they were already fully Christianized. Very little evidence of pre-Christian Albanian culture survives, although Albanian mythology and folklore are of Paleo-Balkanic origin and almost all of their elements are pagan,[2] in particular showing Greek influence.[3]

Regarding the classification of the Albanian language, it forms a separate branch of Indo-European, first attested in the 15th century, apparently based on the wider Paleo-Balkans group of antiquity.

[ajax]

Arguments against Illyrian origin

The theory of an Illyrian origin of the Albanians is challenged on archaeological and linguistic grounds.[60]

* Although the Illyrian tribe of the Albanoi and the place Albanopolis could be located near Krujë, nothing proves a relation of this tribe to the Albanians, whose name appears for the first time in the eleventh century in Byzantine sources[61]
* According to linguist V. Georgiev, the theory of an Illyrian origin for the Albanians is weakened by a lack of any Albanian names before the 12th century and the relative absence of Greek influence that would surely be present if the Albanians inhabited their homeland continuously since ancient times.[62] According to Georgiev if the Albanians originated near modern-day Albania, the number of Greek loanwords in the Albanian language should be higher.[63]
* According to Georgiev, although some Albanian toponyms descend from Illyrian, Illyrian toponyms from antiquity have not changed according to the usual phonetic laws applying to the evolution of Albanian. Furthermore, placenames can be a special case and the Albanian language more generally has not been proven to be of Illyrian stock.[61]
* Many linguists have tried to link Albanian with Illyrian, but without clear results.[61][64] Albanian belongs to the satem group within Indo-European language tree, while there is a debate whether Illyrian was centum or satem. On the other hand, Dacian[64] and Thracian[65] seem to belong to satem. Additionally, more recent research suggests that there was a process of satemization by which non-satem languages slowly acquired characteristics, and this characteristic has found parallels in the modern development of many Western European languages. For example, in terms of the pronunciation of the word for one hundred ("centum" kɛntʊm in Latin and "satem" satəm in Avestan, an Ancient Iranian language- hence the names for the isogloss), French could be considered semi-satemized, as the pronunciation of French cent, sɑ̃t, is actually closer to "satem" than "centum".[citation needed][original research?]
* There is a lack of clear archaeological evidence for a continuous settlement of an Albanian-speaking population since Illyrian times. For example, while Albanians scholars maintain that the Komani-Kruja burial sites support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory, most scholars reject this and consider that the remains indicate a population of Romanized Illyrians who spoke a Romance language.[66][67][68] Recently, some Albanian archeologists have also been moving away from describing the Komani-Kruja culture as a proto-Albanian culture.[69]

[ajax]

Wilkes is the foremost LIVING authority on the Illyrians. His is the LATEST comprehensive work on the Illyrian people. In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219: "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS." Wilkes has been proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage - they are mostly a pre-IE Mediterranean population Albanian is classified as an non-IE(Indo-European) language because no one has been able to classify it into any group, and this is because no one has yet studied all the Caucasian languages. As soon as linguisists begin to study the Caucasians languages they will realize the similarities with Albanian. Albanian might have IE sounding words, but its basic structure and syntax are more similar to Chechen and Udish than to any IE language. Many Albanian words do sound Indo- European, because Albanian has borrowed over 90 % of its vocabulary, more than any other European language. Today, name Albany dissapered from Caucauss, but albanian people did not. Albanians from Caucauss have commom ethnic caracteristics with Sicilian or Balcan tribes of Albanians- as language, personals names, style of wearing and antropological caracteristisc.And everyone can compare albanian script from Caucauss (Agirshag runic letters',and Turkish rune letters from Saka/Saga tribe) with albanian script from Balcan (Elbasan script) on links: doc.gen.az/ru/azerpeople/ap010.eng.htm .htm On the territory of today's Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D., they enter also in Durrachium. The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today¹s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian and Macedonian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others. I discovered that by chance, studying the Albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the Illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the Albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can¹t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars... Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu ...and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Let's move up in time, and reach the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages the Albanians were somewhere there, though their first mention is in the 11th century (or 12th, I'm not sure). Where were they living? Where are the places they have named after their common words (technically called appellatives)? The south is full -- literally full -- of Slavic place names, especially the areas of Vlora, Tepelena, Skrapar, Mallakaster, Gramsh, Cermenike, Moker, Korce, Erseke. My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism. Ardian Vebiu famous Albanian historian

[Duke John]

Apr 7, 2011 18:13:20 GMT -5 ajax said:

Historians know that Albanians came from the Caspian Sea, near Caucasus. And that they mixed with Illyrians. Of course, Albanians tend to overlook that detail and assume they descent directly from Illyrians. The Albanians are from the Caucasus, originally. Caucasian Albania was located on the eastern area of the Caucasus between the Caspian sea and the tips of the mountain ranges.

Old Albania was known only for wild dogs and barren snow covered mountains, for which it received the name Albania by foreigners (Alba-white). One of the GREATEST PROOFS that Albanians do come from the Caucasus and that THEY ARE NOT the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians is the Turkish name for the Albanians. "Arnauti", which means "those who have not returned" in Arabic, for the Turks were aware of the origins of the Albanians. And they truly did not return, they stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands. In turn, the Albanians did not use any of those names for themselves, but called themselves "shqiptari". The word "shqip" has many meanings in Albanian. It can mean "eagle" or "rocky hill". Austro-Hungarian anthropologists and philologists in early last century attempted to give the Albanians a noble character and theorized that the "eagle" was the root meaning and totally ignored both modern Albania and Caucasian Albania as rocky, baren and poor places, which would allude to the notion of the former as being the root meaning for naming themselves.

Is this just a greater Serbian quasi-history to cover up the noble Illyrian roots of Albanians? Not according to a contemporary od Maniakos, the Byzantine ruler who brought the Albanians to northern Epirus. Michael Ataliotos describes the events in his chronicle: "Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae". In the republic of Georgia, in the Caucasus, on the territory of the former Caucasian Albania, from where the Avar Khanate once had its capital, there is a village named: "Arnauti". This is the name by which Serbs, Greeks, Turks, FYR-Macedonians and Montenegrin Serbs refer to Albanians in their respective langauges. There is also village in Georgia named "Bushati" - which is the name of an Albanian tribe ("fis") around Lake Skadar. There are three villages named: "Geguti", "Gegeni" and "Gegi". "Ghegheni" is the name designated to Albanians who live north of the Shkumbi River in Albania proper.

Apr 8, 2011 6:10:37 GMT -5 ajax said:

The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari". This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR". Taken together with the Shqiptar-Albanian toponyms on the territory of the former Caucasian Albania, this theory on the etymology of "Shqipatr" becomes more plausable.

When Aleander the Great conquered Asia minor, he took with him the great leader of the Albanian tribes and gave him as a present an Albanian dog. Among other things, Caucasian Albania did not attract conquerors, because of its poverty and difficult terrain. With the comming of the Arabs, they converted the Old Albanians in the 8th century to Islam. But meanwhile, at the time, the Arabs were waging campaigns in Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them Old Albanians from the Caucasus. To this day, their descendants live in Sicily.

Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the young Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgius Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercenaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi".

The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers. The original URAL-ALTAIC speaking Caucasian Shqiptar-Albanians were part of the AVAR KHANATE which had one of its early capitals in Caucasian Albania (hence Albanian topnyms there, the possible Ural-Altaic etymology of the suffix in the word "Shqip-tar" and the similarities in national costume with Caucasian peoples - the non-Indo-European Georgians, in particular). The original Shqiptar-Albanian group of AVARS settled in Northern Romania and subjugated the Latin speaking peoples of that area when the Avars entered Europe and conquered most of its Eastern part. Over time they assimilated most of the Latin language of the people they conquered, but imposed their name on their new subjects - just like the Bulg-AR tribe did in Thrace. This explains why modern Albanian has similarities to the Romance languages of Romania. This Ship-tar Av-ar tribe, I believe, moved south as far as Epirus from where the Avars are recorded as staging their failed attack on Constantinople. So, by the time the Avar Khanate was defeated by the armies of Serbs and Croats and Charles the Great in the 7th century, the Avars had reached south as far as EPIRUS from where they based this failed attack on Constantinople!!! In Epirus, this Shqiptar-Avar tribe assimilated the Illyrians and Hellenes of Epirus, as they had done to the Latin speakers of Northern Romania more than a century earlier. While the Avars were driven out of Europe by Charles the Great and killed off by Serbs and Croats in the Balkans in the 7th century, the Serbs NEVER REACHED the south of the Shkumbi until the LATE DARK AGES. The Shqiptar-Avars in Epirus and south of the Shkumbi were left unharmed.

Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripedes (480 ? 406 BC) --

This article was originally written by Phillip Kallemeris in January 2005, the article has no historical evidence or references, no research was done for the claims on the article, the article of Phillip Kallemeris is a product of his fantasy.

mobydicks.com/lecture/Deweyhall/read.php?f=73&i=25&t=5

Apr 8, 2011 10:28:23 GMT -5 ajax said:

The origin of the Albanians has been for some time a matter of dispute among historians. Most historians conclude that the Albanians are descendants of populations of the prehistoric Balkans, such as the Illyrians, Dacians or Thracians.[1] Little is known about these peoples, and they blended into one another in Thraco-Illyrian and Daco-Thracian contact zones even in antiquity.

The Albanians first appear in the historical record in Byzantine sources of the late 11th century. At this point, they were already fully Christianized. Very little evidence of pre-Christian Albanian culture survives, although Albanian mythology and folklore are of Paleo-Balkanic origin and almost all of their elements are pagan,[2] in particular showing Greek influence.[3]

Regarding the classification of the Albanian language, it forms a separate branch of Indo-European, first attested in the 15th century, apparently based on the wider Paleo-Balkans group of antiquity.

Albanians can not be traced outside of the balkans, Albanians are descended from populations of the prehistoric Balkans, genetics support this since there are no genes in the albanian genetic pool that is outside of european continent.

www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v8/n7/abs/5200443a.html

Apr 8, 2011 10:35:18 GMT -5 ajax said:

Wilkes is the foremost LIVING authority on the Illyrians. His is the LATEST comprehensive work on the Illyrian people. In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219: "NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS." Wilkes has been proven CORRECT by science when the Human Genome Project's Y-chromosome study of European populations, confirmed that the vast majority of contemporary Albanians do not share an Illyrian or any Indo-European linneage - they are mostly a pre-IE Mediterranean population Albanian is classified as an non-IE(Indo-European) language because no one has been able to classify it into any group, and this is because no one has yet studied all the Caucasian languages. As soon as linguisists begin to study the Caucasians languages they will realize the similarities with Albanian. Albanian might have IE sounding words, but its basic structure and syntax are more similar to Chechen and Udish than to any IE language. Many Albanian words do sound Indo- European, because Albanian has borrowed over 90 % of its vocabulary, more than any other European language. Today, name Albany dissapered from Caucauss, but albanian people did not. Albanians from Caucauss have commom ethnic caracteristics with Sicilian or Balcan tribes of Albanians- as language, personals names, style of wearing and antropological caracteristisc.And everyone can compare albanian script from Caucauss (Agirshag runic letters',and Turkish rune letters from Saka/Saga tribe) with albanian script from Balcan (Elbasan script) on links: doc.gen.az/ru/azerpeople/ap010.eng.htm .htm On the territory of today's Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D., they enter also in Durrachium. The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today¹s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian and Macedonian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Kor?a (Korcha), (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others. I discovered that by chance, studying the Albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the Illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the Albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can¹t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars... Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu ...and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Let's move up in time, and reach the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages the Albanians were somewhere there, though their first mention is in the 11th century (or 12th, I'm not sure). Where were they living? Where are the places they have named after their common words (technically called appellatives)? The south is full -- literally full -- of Slavic place names, especially the areas of Vlora, Tepelena, Skrapar, Mallakaster, Gramsh, Cermenike, Moker, Korce, Erseke. My personal opinion is that the issue of Albanians descending or not from Illyrians doesn't deserve the interest it has traditionally aroused. There is absolutely NO Illyrian cultural legacy among Albanians today. In a certain sense, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism. Ardian Vebiu famous Albanian historian

Wilkes clearly made a very embarrasing mistake, Wilkes in no anthropologist and acording to his claim, Wilkes has never seen or been in contact with Albanians, Anthropologist that have studied and researched Albanians have come to a results that is contra to Wilkes claims, and in this sense Wilkes claims about Albanians being short and dark skinned is disproved.


Aadmin your forum is no fun anymore, all the intelligent members have left and i dont see no posts from them, your forum is a big failure with very poorly educated people.

[Kanaris]

It's no fun anymore since none of you can prove of your existence prior to 1200.... I know I sound like a broken record... but them are the facts.

[mystery]

Apr 8, 2011 12:16:52 GMT -5 Kanaris said:

It's no fun anymore since none of you can prove of your existence prior to 1200.... I know I sound like a broken record... but them are the facts.

Can you trace your roots back prior to 1200? No.


Are you a turk? Yes

[Kanaris]

Classic comeback.... and pathetic... but I learned not to expect any answers from you people...simply because there are none.

[Hellenas]

Apr 8, 2011 14:00:54 GMT -5 mystery said:

Are you a turk? Yes

That's what the Alabanians are=TURKALBANIANS.

Greeks do not related genetically with the Turks. The Greek DNA is similar to the Ancient Greek DNA, a lot of western and west northern Turks descend from Greeks and both Greeks and Turks are two different populations, both racially and genetically.

Ah, and you are just illiterate as well.

[Duke John]

Apr 8, 2011 12:16:52 GMT -5 Kanaris said:

It's no fun anymore since none of you can prove of your existence prior to 1200.... I know I sound like a broken record... but them are the facts.

Can you explain more about why you chose 1200´s? what is your information source that tells about 1200´s?

[kolonia]

Apr 8, 2011 20:06:17 GMT -5 Hellenas said:

Apr 8, 2011 14:00:54 GMT -5 mystery said:

Are you a turk? Yes

That's what the Alabanians are=TURKALBANIANS.

Greeks do not related genetically with the Turks. The Greek DNA is similar to the Ancient Greek DNA, a lot of western and west northern Turks descend from Greeks and both Greeks and Turks are two different populations, both racially and genetically.

Ah, and you are just illiterate as well.

hahahaha @ ancient greeks.

Cocksuker you are a mixture of the entire balkans.

[Kanaris]

Apr 9, 2011 5:59:18 GMT -5 Duke John said:

Apr 8, 2011 12:16:52 GMT -5 Kanaris said:

It's no fun anymore since none of you can prove of your existence prior to 1200.... I know I sound like a broken record... but them are the facts.

Can you explain more about why you chose 1200´s? what is your information source that tells about 1200´s?

Okay since you're being civilized...

I always refer to that date giving little benefit to doubt on weather Michael Komnenos Doukas (Duka) was pure Albanian or not,never the less I refer to him as an Albanian and the first one to form some sort of 'state' up in Epirus 1205... and the first leader with a reference date.. I have not been able to find any other Albanian leaders before that.. date.

[ajax]

LMAO so the first 'Albanian' leader was a Greek?

[Duke John]

Apr 9, 2011 14:53:42 GMT -5 Kanaris said:

Apr 9, 2011 5:59:18 GMT -5 Duke John said:

Can you explain more about why you chose 1200´s? what is your information source that tells about 1200´s?

Okay since you're being civilized...

I always refer to that date giving little benefit to doubt on weather Michael Komnenos Doukas (Duka) was pure Albanian or not,never the less I refer to him as an Albanian and the first one to form some sort of 'state' up in Epirus 1205... and the first leader with a reference date.. I have not been able to find any other Albanian leaders before that.. date.

Either I did not understand what you meant with 1200´s before, or you have been not able to explain clearly why you chose the year 1200´s, but now you made it clear.
When you are using 1200´s and claiming that Arbërors/Albanians did not exist before 1200´s you are giving the impression that Albanians appeared from nowhere in 1200´s, and that Albanians have not descend from the balkan people before 1200´s, you really need to be more clear and explain in more detail.
There is a historical reference that Albanians did exist before the date that you seem to use as a concrete proof, even if it is a tiny reference it is still a valid historical document that disproves your claim.

What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the eleventh century. It was discovered in a Serbian manuscript dated 1628 and was first published in 1934 by Radoslav Grujic.
The 11th century is the period from 1001 to 1100, and the text talks about the "beginning of the 1000´s", and you are strongly claiming 1200´s, do you realise anything or do i need to tell you that your 1200´s claim has been disproved.

[Kanaris]

Who was the Albanian clan leader in the Bulgarian text? Who can I use as a reference from the 11 century. The Bulgarian text makes 'mention'... it's almost as bad as me mentioning that I took a piss this morning.... no one cares about those points...

[Duke John]

Apr 9, 2011 17:41:00 GMT -5 Kanaris said:

Who was the Albanian clan leader in the Bulgarian text? Who can I use as a reference from the 11 century. The Bulgarian text makes 'mention'... it's almost as bad as me mentioning that I took a piss this morning.... no one cares about those points...

It is not about the leaders but about the existence of Albanians before 1200´s, Putting the question mark after the Bulgarian text clearly shows that you are not well informed, ignorance is understandable, learning new things is a good thing, but you did piss this morning right? and if you did then it is the truth, the pissing process existed, but if you did not and you said that you did then it is a lie.
A microscopical finding can prove and solve a big problem, in your 1200´s case Bulgarian text solved and disproved your 1200´s claim.