ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on May 19, 2011 13:13:59 GMT -5
Hey, Anittas.. do you know why Romanians say "bodaprosti" (ie. bog da prosti)? Thus far, I've not met a single Romanian that could explain. They've all simply told me "it's tradition", or some other similar and equally generic answer.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on May 19, 2011 13:29:44 GMT -5
Sorry, I misspelled it. It's "Bogdaproste" evidently. So?
Why do Romanians use that term? What is its significance? And where does it come from?
Shed some light on the matter. Would you do that for us?
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Post by Anittas on May 19, 2011 18:50:29 GMT -5
Ivo, this forum doesn't have room for unsophisticated sarcasm. You have to do better than that.
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on May 19, 2011 20:43:24 GMT -5
Lol. I would have been very surprised if you knew. Anyway, if you'd like to know.. let me know.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on May 19, 2011 23:58:12 GMT -5
I guess its typical "Romanian" saying...
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Post by Anittas on May 20, 2011 3:14:40 GMT -5
This subject has already been covered some 5 years ago by Ruse and Edlund the Evil. You only bring it up to stimulate your ego. Yes, Romanians know what it means, even though they may not know the (original) meaning in Bulgarian. I know what it means in Bulgarian. If I didn't know, it wouldn't be a big loss. If you want to know what it means in Romanian, depending on the context that it is used, see Romanian Wikipedia. ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdaprostegoogle.translate.com
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ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
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Post by ivo on May 20, 2011 9:20:40 GMT -5
Anittas, bro, we ain't feedin no egos here. We just callin it like it is ya know..
Funny story.. when I was in Romania, my girlfriend at the time gave me two icons from a Romanian church to bring back to my grandparents as gifts. The words on those icons were written in the Bulgarian alphabet, in Bulgarian and the Romanians couldn't read it.
It's a shame you renounced Old Bulgarian as your official state/church language along with our alphabet, we could have been very close today if you didn't. And maybe you wouldn't have so much built up animosity against my people.
But is what it is, and like I told you before.. there's no hate, but it would be really good if you didn't purposefully instigate as you seem to do.
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Post by Anittas on May 20, 2011 11:59:36 GMT -5
Ivo my observation is that the language on most icons, if it's not Romanian, it's either Greek or Church Slavonic (Bulgarian). Now, what you and the rest of your peers refuse to understand the status and the role of your language in Romanian religious society. Old Slavonic was the church language along with Greek; it was what Latin was for those Catholic countries that later converted to Protestantism and which translated the Bible into their own language. They refused to have it in Latin so that the common man could read the Bible in his own language and understand it.
If we were to continue using Old Slavonic instead of our own language, two things would've happened: the vast majority of the populace would not have understood what was being said and written; and more words of Slavonic origin would've been introduced in Romanian and whereas more words of Latin origin would've disappeared. To remove the Old Slavonic wasn't so difficult, but it was far more difficult to enforce the use of Romanian in favor of Greek. To put it shortly, it was a powerstruggle between several Church factions and the principality.
What do you honestly think would be in the favor of our culture and identity? To preserve our own language or to use a foreign language and have it infiltrate our vocabulary further? Because that is how the Bulgarian lexis infiltrated our language.
I don't understand why you would've prefered to have Romanian disappear in favor of Slavonic, but I find it offensive. The Greeks were equally frustrated when we decided to do away with their language as you are now. You can't please them all.
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Post by vlaici on May 22, 2011 10:12:01 GMT -5
Ioan is a Romanian name, too. It is first attested in Bulgarian. A language first recorded in 9 century, extensively used by the Romanian church/state. Romanian is first recorded in... 15 century. Thus Ioan can not be a Romanian name. Actually most Romanian names (not recent imports) sound like vlachisized proper Bulgarian names like Mircha. We have Mircho. In my book Ioan or Ion (Romanian)= Ivan (Slav)= John, Jon, Johan, Jean, Giovani, etc. Is Ioan realy attested in Bulgarian in the 9th century? In the times of the Khans? How much was Ioan used in Bulgaria afterwards? Today?
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Post by Anittas on May 22, 2011 10:56:52 GMT -5
Ioan is attested in many countries and cultures, such as England and also Bulgaria. But Ioan is originally Latin.
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ivo
Amicus
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Post by ivo on May 22, 2011 13:38:36 GMT -5
Ion is Romanian no doubt. But Ioan is Bulgarian.
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Post by Anittas on May 22, 2011 19:08:27 GMT -5
Ioan is used in Bulgarian. It's not Bulgarian. Oh, and you didn't reply to the points that I raised. How rude... but no worries. I'm used to it.
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on May 23, 2011 10:06:25 GMT -5
ioan is bulgarian. thats the first variant of ivan, john etc. used in Bulgaria. All our kings that beared that name were called Ioan NOT Ivan. Later, due to the Russian influence I think, Ivan was accepted in Bulgaria too. Today, both names are found in Bulgaria. Ioan can not be a Romanian name. Your first writing is from 16 century (or 15?), some 8 centuries AFTER the first Bulgarian book. And in the meantime alot of Bulgarian books were written and in them you could find alot of Ioans since not a small amount of our kings were called Ioan. But it is not the first time Romanians claim something Bulgarian as "Romanian".
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on May 23, 2011 10:17:52 GMT -5
The first Ioan that I can remember is the biggest Bulgarian saint: St. Ioan Of Rila. He was called IOan not Ivan (though now it is often called Ivan) but it is WRONG. His name was Ioan. He is exactly from 9 century: born 876. There were even protests from the church that people called him Ivan when in reality he was called Ioan. For those who knnow Bulgarian here it is: www.pravoslavieto.com/life/10.19_imeto.htmIn the article it is said that the oldest BULGARIAN variant of the name was Ioan.
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Post by vlaici on May 23, 2011 14:02:29 GMT -5
Thanks, Ioan. Glad to have met Йоан Рилски! I have always thought Ioan to be a form of some precious form of Ion. Йоан Рилски opens to me a new window on our common past... Would you be offended to think of the 9th century as of a century of co- habitation of Balkans? At the west, Rumanians now have neighbors that are sending us to south of Danube in those times. I don,t mind. Others say that emperor Justinian is the first ever mentioned Rumanian in 6th century. Maybe we experienced a feeling of self consciousness separating ourselves, in time, of our southern neighbors. Anyway, latinised population of Balkans choose to be orthodox. As I keep appreciating the balkanic „common sense„, I suppose we should forget our last century of discontent in favour of the 1000 years of cooperation.
I hope I was not too pathetic (after a few cups of wine).
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Post by vlaici on May 23, 2011 14:13:41 GMT -5
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on May 23, 2011 15:22:58 GMT -5
Thanks, Ioan. Glad to have met Йоан Рилски! I have always thought Ioan to be a form of some precious form of Ion. You are welcomed. You mean previous form of Ion? Could be. However the name has passed to you via Bulgarian. At least it is attested as Bulgarian name since at least 9 century. No of course I wouldnt. But why is Ioan of Rila something of our common past? We did have a common past thats for sure and we had no conflicts (which is amazing) till 1913, but there is nothing Romanian in Ioan of Rila. He has always been considered as the prime Bulgarian saint even by the Greeks (they have also described his life). Its a matter of debate where the vlahs were. Its really a big amusement that you are mentioned so late (11 century first I think). You mean the quote about the Avars? I think Bulgarians and Romanians genetically are very close - basically composed of the same people - Slavs, Thracians (in the Romanian case - Dacians who have been romanized) and Bulgars. Also Cumans, Celts etc. I agree we had amazingly long story of coexisting in the past. I think we used to be much closer and in the right circumstances we might have been one people (if Bulgaria was not under the Turks and could ve influenced Romania). Too bad we now dont know each other that much. I ve been in Romania and for better or worse it is the country that most resembles Bulgaria (and I ve been in almost any country on the Bolkans).
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on May 23, 2011 15:27:35 GMT -5
true, it says Ivan, but he was called Ioan, not Ivan. Now alot of people call him Ivan, which is historically inaccurate.
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Post by Anittas on May 24, 2011 6:08:39 GMT -5
ioan is bulgarian. thats the first variant of ivan, john etc. used in Bulgaria. All our kings that beared that name were called Ioan NOT Ivan. Later, due to the Russian influence I think, Ivan was accepted in Bulgaria too. Today, both names are found in Bulgaria. Ioan can not be a Romanian name. Your first writing is from 16 century (or 15?), some 8 centuries AFTER the first Bulgarian book. And in the meantime alot of Bulgarian books were written and in them you could find alot of Ioans since not a small amount of our kings were called Ioan. But it is not the first time Romanians claim something Bulgarian as "Romanian". Dude, Ioan is Latin. You took the name from the Byzantines. Let it go. There's no reason to think we took the name from you and not the Greeks. Do you think you were the only people we were in contact with? How arrogant!
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Post by rusebg on May 24, 2011 6:12:00 GMT -5
I wonder why you Romanians changed the name of the patron of Bucharest from Dimitar Basarbovski to Dimitar Besarabski when this guy had absolutely nothing to do with Besarabia. Also, judging by the big number of Romanians who visit his monastery in Basarbovo, it is obvious you are well aware with his life. Isn't it time to name him properly?
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