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Post by Anittas on Sept 7, 2011 7:57:29 GMT -5
I think the Ottoman army and the American army were big enough for Serbia. Who would you want the Serbs to right? The Klingons?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 8:01:51 GMT -5
losing against the otomans (1389) or USA (1995) is actually good. it means that serbs can fight bigger enemies... croats OTOH seem competent only against children and women... (many serb women were raped by croats during those horrific wars) tell me, when was the last time that croats fought against a big enemy??? lol There is no mention of Croatian rapists in the Kosovo alliance vs the Turk/Serbian defector alliance in 1389. lol. If the U.S. really went to war against Serbs in 1995 there would be no Serbia or R.S. today. The U.N. simply gave up its position in occupied Croatian territory which protected the Serbs for four years and let the Croatian Army not only reclaim Croatian land but liberate Bosnian land with join effort from the HVO and Bosnian Army. Point is you guys are delusioned. The Kosovo battle was between an alliance of Christians ( not only Serbs but Albanians , Bosno-Croats , Hungarians) who aided Serbia against the Turkish invader and it's defector Serbian allies. It was a tragic defeat that should be mourned , not celebrated. Nor does it demonstrate any kind of 'Serbian heroism' since Serbs fought on both sides according to individual purposes. The Turks were already actively fighting in the Balkans before the fall of Kosovo. They were at the hire of Christian lords to defeat their rivals.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 8:03:01 GMT -5
I think the Ottoman army and the American army were big enough for Serbia. Who would you want the Serbs to right? The Klingons? Next thing you know this guy will be saying the first homo-sapien was a Serb and that God is Serb as well.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 8:05:38 GMT -5
Now if you really want to find a 'hero' look no further than the controversial Romanian figure of 'Vlad the Impaler.' Vlad was a brutal and draconian leader but maybe he had to be because he absolutely scared the crap out of the , till then , unstoppable Turkish juggernaut.
I have mixed opinions about Vlad like most people do I think.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 8:06:42 GMT -5
^^^ what did you just smoke? your 1st sentence is from out of this world. by "those horrific wars", obviously, i meant the nazi-croat aggression aided and guided by germany/usa during the 90s... you are not very smart, are you?
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 8:16:37 GMT -5
There were no Nazis in Croatia the 1990s. The Nazi party never formed in Croatia and was pretty much disbanded everywhere ( save a few German refugees in So.America) by that time.
I never understood how Croats can be aggressors IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY? Can you explain that to me? A minority wants to break away with the use of violence , terrorizing the local populace in their district that do not agree with them , and the CROATIAN authorities attempt to reslove a conflict in CROATIA and Croats are called the aggressors? Yet you still hold to this wild notion that Serbs can't be aggressors in Kosovo because they are merely fighting rebels in their country.
Serbs logged down roads , shot policemen , were reinforced by arms from Serbia , they made it clear that they wanted blood spilt. When we responded and eventually defeated them then they cry fowl lol.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 7, 2011 8:16:38 GMT -5
"if not the cyrilic i am sure the old bulgari invented an alphabet which looks like"
Pyrro, l wouldn't be surprised if the old BuLgari wrote in this east asian *kinezo* script. Just have a look at their Asparuch, this Bulgar clothed himself in east asian style, eat foods from east asia, built buildings in east asian style, spoke a language from the altai, followed calendars from east asia (year of rabbit, horse, snake) etc.....
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 7, 2011 8:17:35 GMT -5
^^ Novi , I doubt he was even literate.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 7, 2011 8:28:36 GMT -5
"you may be an animal, but i am not. the serbs have given all of us a bad name. srebrenica, vukovar, sarajevo etc etc etc..."
Chento, your croatian ally, *Priso*, will agree with me, that poison money had infiltrated PR firms like Rudder and Finn propagating nonsense, which has lead you, unfortunately, to perceive Serbs as the aggressors in this entire destruction of Yugoslavia, or in your mind Serboslavia.
PS it wasn't Miloshevich who destroyed Yugoslavia, look at people who you respect more dearly like the Hrvati and their Stipe Mesich. Just recently this pig *Mesich* was in Kosovo, and alittle later the Albanians attempted to reinact an operation storm in northern kosovo......evil.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 8:38:49 GMT -5
There were no Nazis in Croatia the 1990s. ;D ;D ;D
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 7, 2011 8:40:10 GMT -5
^^ Novi , I doubt he was even literate. Did Priso try to make a point here? ;D ;D ;D i didn't notice ;D
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 7, 2011 9:38:36 GMT -5
Let's not get carried away here. I think heroism is something that one can only claim if he's in an inferior position, and still fights.
Some people here have already started to claim that all Slavs are Serbs, who knows how far they'd go.
The almighty Vlad slaughtered all. When he crossed south of the Danube, he slaughtered about 25,000 Bulgarians, including women and children. I wouldn't consider that a hero, nor would I consider it a display of heroism.. especially considering that the Bulgarians at that time were a defenseless population, that was completely disarmed by the Ottoman Turks.
Gyrro, you're a dimwit. You fail to notice many things.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 7, 2011 11:10:19 GMT -5
Vlad Draculea should not be considered a hero, but he was celebrated as such by the Pope and by the Christian subjects living in the Ottoman Empire. The source, based on Vlad's own words, put the number at around almost 24,000, not counting those who were consumed by flames. Those who were killed were Turks and Muslim Bulgarians.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 7, 2011 12:04:01 GMT -5
I don't believe there was a distinction between Muslim and Christian Bulgarians. He slaughtered all, along with the women and children.
These sort of acts sometimes naturally occur in war, however, the Bulgars were not those who he went to war against.. yet he murdered them anyway.
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elemag
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Post by elemag on Sept 7, 2011 13:56:01 GMT -5
There were no Muslim Bulgarians during the reign of Vlad Tepes. The process of converting Bulgarians into the Muslim religion started about a century later. And speaking about Vlad - can someone from my Romanians friends here provide us with copies of Vlad's letters?
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Post by Anittas on Sept 7, 2011 14:36:23 GMT -5
I don't believe there was a distinction between Muslim and Christian Bulgarians. He slaughtered all, along with the women and children. These sort of acts sometimes naturally occur in war, however, the Bulgars were not those who he went to war against.. yet he murdered them anyway. Some of our historians raised the possibility that Vlad was a psychopath. One way or another, the guy was evil. He also took the habbit of inflicting collective punishment. He did this to some Transylvanian Saxon villages: if one was guilty (in his eyes), all had to perish. When a Wallachian sergent refused to execute a Saxon maiden, he was impaled. I don't like to speculate too much, but it is possible that he wasn't pleased by the Bulgarian pacifism. Note, this is not an attack on Bulgaria. The Wallachians who were not deemed brave enough met the same fate. If Vlad had expected the Bulgarians to join his cause--and they didn't--then there's your explanation for his agression. It should be noted that 13 years later, 20,000 Bulgarians were marched by the Ottomans in their invasion of Moldavia. This shows that the Bulgarians were used in military campaigns, even though their role was not the one of a soldier (they were workers). As for Ruse's comment on Bulgarians not being Muslim, the sources claim they were. This doesn't mean that there was a large Muslim Bulgarian community. I'm sure they were only a few at that time. His campaign in Rumelia devastated the Ottoman infrastructure. He burned down the harbours and came close enough to see the outskirts of Istanbul/Constantinople. Mehmet was besieging Trebizond at the time, but had to abandon the siege in order to deal with Vlad. Although Vlad was evil, he did save Wallachia from being annexed by the Porte and for better or worse, he founded Bucharest (the settlement existed as a simple village). His campaigns delayed the Ottoman influence in Wallachia and Moldavia, and also Hungary and Poland.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 7, 2011 14:47:16 GMT -5
Elemag brought up a good point. At that time, it is unlikely that the Ottomans were able to convert many Bulgars into Islam.
Do you have any sources that have designated those Bulgarians as Muslims?
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Post by Anittas on Sept 7, 2011 15:28:57 GMT -5
I read it in two books. The one book that I will use as source mentions a Serb Janissary transliterated in Romanian as "Constantin de Ostrovita" who wrote that Tepes differentiated between Turks and Bulgarians; "and although the former met his wrath, the latter were taken to his country and settled there, like his father, Vlad Dracul did in his campaign of 1445." [Anittas: the hasty translation from Romanian to English was done by me]
Vlad Tepes, Stoicescu Nicolae. pp. 98-100, Editura Militara - Bucuresti 1979
More stuff from the campaign for the one interested...
On March 4, 1462, a Venetian envoy by the name Petru de Thomasii [Anittas: the author transliterated the name to Romanian Petru] informed the senate that he was summoned by Matthias Corvinus and asked to read some letters received by one of his envoys, among others letters belonging to Dracula [Anittas: in fact, Dracula did not write the letters, but most likely dictated them to his servant, Ladislav], which informed him [Matthias] about his destruction and the numbers killed. Thomasii considers his deeds as grand, in such a way that "each Christian should be happy".
Stoicescu writes that this expedition was taken with Tepes' initiative, but with the news (blessing) of Corvinus. Moreover, Corvinus used Tepes' effort in order to secure funds from Italy [Anittas: Venice and the Papal States].
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Post by Anittas on Sept 7, 2011 15:34:44 GMT -5
Note: the above source shows that Vlad did not target Bulgarians, or at least the Christian Bulgarians who were in the vast majority. As for the source claiming there were Muslim Bulgarians, if I remember it correctly, I read it in Florescu's book on Vlad Dracula, but I'm not sure where the book is and I don't feel like digging it out.
At what date do your historians accept that a part of the Bulgarians were converted to Islam?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Sept 7, 2011 18:05:16 GMT -5
losing against the otomans (1389) or USA (1995) is actually good. it means that serbs can fight bigger enemies... croats OTOH seem competent only against children and women... (many serb women were raped by croats during those horrific wars) tell me, when was the last time that croats fought against a big enemy??? lol i think it's funny how serbs celebrate defeat....kosovo (1389, 1998), operation storm (1995). what good is it fighting a powerful enemy if you keep losing? perhaps you should start celebrating some wins in the future. let's see if you can maintain sandzhak and hungarian-vojvodina - this will be a win!
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