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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Sept 25, 2011 12:42:36 GMT -5
It is astounding the number of replies which are either childish or unrelated to what is written here and many that basically are a proof of what I have said previously (and that is that the mutual divisions and antagonisms will keep us from progressing and in Diaspora).
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Post by uz on Sept 25, 2011 12:49:44 GMT -5
We love to hate the idea of us working together. I beleive the feuds we have give each of us a (false) purpose and with this "purpose" we come up with excuses to hate one another and of course when the rest of the world takes sides that doesn't help either.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Sept 25, 2011 13:04:20 GMT -5
I believe that people who have such views need to do something practical for themselves and that is renounce their current ethnic affiliation and stop talking as if they are Albanians, Serbs etc and start talking what they really are and that is Aussie, Americans, Canadians since that is what they and their kids will become.
Stupidity caused by self imposed ignorance here is astounding.
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Post by uz on Sept 25, 2011 13:12:59 GMT -5
Absolutely, but we cannot assume what "their" kids will become. The world is a small place, and it's getting even smaller. Yet, it's a good thing to share perspectives, this is what this place is all about right? We all have stories and experiences that have shaped us both physically and mentally. Whether we live back home or not may not be the point. Some of us never had a choice, some of us did. I just think it's important to note, that everything being said here is based on perspective and not necessarily truth.
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Post by odel on Sept 25, 2011 13:13:29 GMT -5
The idea of a Balkan union is a very naive one.
As Toskaliku mentioned earlier, every people supposed to be in that union sets its own premises for how it should work not taking into consideration the others. Such as in the Kosova case, where Albanians are by far a majority being about 90% of the population with the largest minority being about 5-7% of the population. Yet that's not taken into consideration, instead that and other parts of the Balkans are to be considered part of Serbia. The Serbs see a Balkan union as nothing but as an extension of Serbia, or as a way to extend Serbia. Not unlike how the Soviet Union was really just an extension of Russia, and not unlike how Serbia had monopolized the power in Yugoslavia.
Some of the rhetoric used to support a Balkan union is: "let's not be part of their (US & EU) games". That brings things back to the Serbian point of view, that Serbia never crossed any line but that the west is out to get Serbia because they for some reason unknown to anyone are scared of Serbia.
Also, if it's all about games, we surely are benefitting from that game. We'd rather not be part of a game where the odds aren't on our side, finally the odds are on our side and we're not going to throw that away because the other side who always had the odds on their side is finally losing.
There's also the fact that there's different ethnicities, cultures, languages and etc to take into consideration. One of the reasons Albanians never felt like a part of Yugoslavia was the fact that it was a South-Slavic state firstly, which Albanians can't really relate to, at least not superficially. This along with the repressive measures taken against Albanians also made this feeling of not being part of Yugoslavia.
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Post by uz on Sept 25, 2011 13:26:40 GMT -5
You're not taking into consideration that Kosovo is still part of Serbia, according to most of the world. So the percentage of Albs in Kosovo is irrelevent compared to the Serbs all over Serbia (including Kosovo).
Nonsense. All you're trying to do is justify the Albanian alliance with the West. Ignoring the fact that they look at you like primitive poor-souls who need help in becoming "civilised-Europeans" taking you by the hand or leash (whatever more suitable) toward the EU-road.
This is bulls**t too, or maybe this is your perspective. Many Albanians would do anything to be part of Yugoslavia this is fact, many Albanians joined Chetnick or Partizan forces and still remained Alb-muslim ( with no problem). Getting into Kosovo back then, was the closest you guys could have gotten to Yugoslavia.
Ps; Yugoslavia was NOT an extension of Serbia. Serbia was the weakest (politically) amongst the Yugo-states, hence what happened in the 90's.
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Post by terroreign on Sept 25, 2011 13:43:24 GMT -5
The idea of a Balkan union is a very naive one. As Toskaliku mentioned earlier, every people supposed to be in that union sets its own premises for how it should work not taking into consideration the others. Such as in the Kosova case, where Albanians are by far a majority being about 90% of the population with the largest minority being about 5-7% of the population. Yet that's not taken into consideration, instead that and other parts of the Balkans are to be considered part of Serbia. The Serbs see a Balkan union as nothing but as an extension of Serbia, or as a way to extend Serbia. Not unlike how the Soviet Union was really just an extension of Russia, and not unlike how Serbia had monopolized the power in Yugoslavia. Some of the rhetoric used to support a Balkan union is: "let's not be part of their (US & EU) games". That brings things back to the Serbian point of view, that Serbia never crossed any line but that the west is out to get Serbia because they for some reason unknown to anyone are scared of Serbia. Also, if it's all about games, we surely are benefitting from that game. We'd rather not be part of*game where the odds aren't on our side, finally the odds are on our side and we're not going to throw that away because the other side who always had the odds on their side is finally losing. There's also the fact that there's different ethnicities, cultures, languages and etc to take into consideration. One of the reasons Albanians never felt like a part of Yugoslavia was the fact that it was a South-Slavic state firstly, which Albanians can't really relate to, at least not superficially. This along with the repressive measures taken against Albanians also made this feeling of not being part of Yugoslavia. *blah* *blah* *Serbia* *blah* *blah* *serbs* *blah*
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Post by Anittas on Sept 25, 2011 14:44:58 GMT -5
A Balkan union cannot be sustained by this Yugo-Slavic culture that you guys have. It can only be founded and prosper on the basis of Eastern Byzantine philosophy. The only country in the Balkans that has a continuity on those set of laws is Romania; therefore, we are the only ones that can unite the Balkans, but you would be more than welcome to participate; and if you're competent, you could even rise to the rank of Roman Caesar.
The first thing we should all do is impose Late Latin (of Late Antiquity) on the population. We don't need a Tito, we need a better version of Justinian.
So spare me from this Slavic and Albanian stuff that you guys keep enforcing.
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Post by odel on Sept 25, 2011 14:48:00 GMT -5
The percentage of Albanians in Kosova is relevant because it doesn't matter if it is independant or not, Kosova is still a region and that region has an Albanian majority.
Ironically, the Serb argument against Albanian self-determination was that they were too primitive to determine for themselves. That's not really the case with the West, and if it is we still benefit far more from being on the West's leash.
I'd rather be on the West's leash and benefit greatly from it, than being in some shitty Union that I'm not going to benefit from while what is our current largest antagonist benefits from it.
It's not really that way but you can live with your delusions.
You truly are an idiot. Few to no Albanians wanted to be part of Yugoslavia, even fewer wanted it so much that they would to anything to be part of it.
There never were any Albanians in Chetnik forces.
Albanians had their own Partizan forces independant of the South-Slavic Partizan movement. The co-operation between the Albanian and South-Slavic Partizan movements were uneasy to say the least and only driven by the common goal of Communism, driving the Axis out and Stalin telling them to co-operate. After WW2 however the governments which were behind these Partizan movements quickly became hostile towards each other. Hoxha was paranoid about a Yugoslav invasion and for good reason.
That you really believe that the reason there is an Albanian majority in Kosova today is that we urged so much to be part of Yugoslavia. I can't call that anything other than stupid, ignorant and naive.
It was, HENCE why the events in the 90's occured.
Uz, you repeatedly show that you're ignorant on almost every subject you talk about and you rarely back it up. Why do you continue to go on with your bullshit? Go read some books.
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Post by uz on Sept 25, 2011 14:57:00 GMT -5
Incorrect, Kosovo was always concidered part of Serbia, NOT Yugoslavia. Sure so be it, it wouldn't be the first time in your history you would chose to be leashed. Sure so you fought for Yugoslavia and not Albania or independant-Kosovo. ---- No that was not the reason the Albs are a majority in Kosovo, there's many other reasons for that. Albs were running to Yugoslavia back then, you cannot deny this. Nothing wrong with it either just don't insult those who did. Your last response to my "PS" didn't make sense. You're blaming the events in 90's on Serbs b/c Serbs were the most powerful Yugo-state politically?!?!? Looks like you need to go read a book. Come back to me when you do, ok sport?
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Post by odel on Sept 25, 2011 15:24:36 GMT -5
As of 1974 it became a republic in Yugoslavia until Milosevic came. That's not important however, Kosova as a region has an Albanian majority.
No, the Albanian Partizan movement was based in Albania, and it fought in Albania mainly, helping the Partizan movement in Yugoslavia the same way the Yugoslav Partizan movement. That was mainly because it was in the interests of Stalin. We had our own Partizan movement, therefore we never were part of your Partizan movement, although there was co-operation.
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Post by uz on Sept 25, 2011 15:42:06 GMT -5
Correction... Kosovo as a land-area has a Albanian majority.
Ok, so pretty much what I was talking about. A stronger Yugoslavia meant a weaker Axis.
Tito left Yugo in shambles, and Serb (representation) in even more shambles. The fact that more Serbs seemed to be in military is nothing new. Serbs supported Yugo-unity for all kinds of reasons that were non-Serb.
This^ deserves it's own thread. Nevertheless, the method behind the breakup of Yugo was text book perfect. Serbs didn't "wage-war" so simply as you put it, other entities were attacking Serb populations, openely/publicly calling for Serb extermination from those lands. How would you expect the Serbs to react?
The other entities could have gotten their independance peacefully, IF that were the intent, but it clearly was not.
The Serbs did what ANY other European country would do, if they were to be in the same position. ------------------------------------
During the 70's in Canada, the Quebec seperatists kidnapped Anglophone politicians, some they killed, they vandalised anything that represented Canada, attacked anyone who spoke of Canada (positively) and you know what the Prime Minister ( Pierre Trudeau a Quebecer-himself) did?
He sent the Canadian military to protect his citizen, and to tame the wild sepertists. He did so, successfully.
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Post by odel on Sept 26, 2011 12:37:39 GMT -5
Kosova is a region, look that up. You weren't talking about anything close to that, and neither was I and you're putting words into my mouth. A stronger anything would have weakened the Axis, the Partizan co-operation was about the togetherness of Communists and whatnot against the Nazis, the Soviet Union backed up both movements and was pretty much what made co-operation possible as both movements had animosity between them which is obvious seeing as one of the goal of the people behind the Partizan movement of the Yugoslavs was to incorporate Albania as part of Yugoslavia. Tito was pretty much the man who held Yugoslavia together, he was the man who supressed the nationalistic feelings of the different peoples. The Serbs didn't "seem" to be more represented in the military (as well as other aspects) the representation of Serbs and Montenegrins in the JNA was a little more than 50% they were very much overrepresented. No they didn't, the largest reason things went like they did is the power that was centralised in Belgrade and Serbian nationalism that was capitalized on by oppurtunists like Milosevic. That's why the JNA invaded Slovenia as Slovenia peacefully wanted to get independence through a refenderum. No, I can't think of any European country that has done anything similar in recent years. The accomplishements Serbia has been behind throughout its whole lifetime as a state has been more similar to what the Ottomans did, and what in more recent times many Middle-Eastern and African countries accomplished. You're talking of completely different things. first of the Serbs were the aggressors. Secondly, there wasn't any large scale war, and at least the Canadians can differentiate between a separatist and a civilian Thirdly, those seperatists didn't represent the popular feelings of the people, therefor they did not represent the people, in Yugoslavia it was different however separatism was supported wholeheartedly by all except for the Serbs.
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Post by uz on Sept 26, 2011 13:13:09 GMT -5
Tito united the Yugoslavia, I never said otherwise, tho it seems you agree. Slovenia attacked the JNA military first, look that up. Serb citizens all over Yugo were being attacked violently, the Serbian gov' had no choice but to intervene. Since you view Serbs as being evil, this discussion will go nowhere. Well in Canada when that happened(YES, THE SEPEARTISTS DID IN FACT REPRESENT MOST QUEBECERS), Trudeau ordered that anyone wearing blue and white (Quebec colors) would be arrested and detained, anyone speaking against Canada would be arrested under suspiscion of terrorism. he Quebecers to this day hate him, yet in Canadian history he's one of a kind and to some a hero. He pretty much invaded the province. There is a difference you're right; The Quebecers did NOT systematically attempt to remove/kill all non-Francophones from Quebec, they did NOT have an army, anglophones were not being forced (directly) to leave their homes, YET STILL Trudeau was able to send the Canadian military in the province to set everyone straight. This was his responsiblity and duty for being the leader of Canada. If Milosevic sat aside while all his people from all over Yugo were being forced from their homes, systematically being cleansed from the regions, and violently attacked, what kind of person/leader would he be? He had no choice. PS; Keep in mind major US/Brit coperations invested in the wars, arming the Croats and Boslims. A peaceful disintergration of Yugoslavia was NEVER the intent, only a moron who does not know the subject would think otherwise.
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Post by uz on Sept 26, 2011 13:31:12 GMT -5
It is suicidal for the Albanian ego to admit that the Serbs were not fully at fault when it comes to Yugo, and even more suicidal to admit that Americans don't care for the betterment of Balkan standard-living but rather exploitation of our lands.
I am certain many Albanians see the truth behind the veil and perhaps understand that the whole Kosovo situation was a sham they succesfully pulled in front of their faces yet I am also certain that it is difficult to face this.
The ego takes many forms, but the nationalist-figure it claims to be is the most prominent for us. Many Serbs have taken the first step in realising that they're was more to the war than what meets the eye, the same (maybe) cannot be said about the others.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 26, 2011 15:41:14 GMT -5
I suppose the Serbs never discriminated against the other ethnicities.
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Post by uz on Sept 26, 2011 17:02:52 GMT -5
^ You can suppose whatever you like in regards to Yugo in the 90's. You'll still end up dead wrong.
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Post by socio on Sept 26, 2011 17:51:33 GMT -5
I suppose the Serbs never discriminated against the other ethnicities. Don't bother, mate. The kid is an idiot. Odel saw it and stopped responding, that is of course after he kicked hi butt. I suggest he changes his name from now on to 'UZguz' .. thats how he continually gets it
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Post by uz on Sept 26, 2011 17:52:02 GMT -5
I suppose the Serbs never discriminated against the other ethnicities. Don't bother waisting time with him. The kid is an idiot. Odel saw that and stopped replying to him, that is of course after he kicked his butt. I suggest, he change his name from now on to: 'UZguz' If you follow the posts carefully you will notice that Odel didn't prove anything he only clarified his anti-Serb stance. You Socio seem to have a hidden obsession with Serbs. It's ok the feelings are mutual. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reposted;It is suicidal for the Albanian ego to admit that the Serbs were not fully at fault when it comes to the Yugo-wars, it is even more suicidal to admit that Americans don't care for the betterment of Balkan standard-living but rather exploitation of our lands.
I am certain many Albanians see the truth behind the veil and perhaps understand that the whole Kosovo situation is a sham they succesfully pulled in front of their faces yet I am also certain that this is difficult to face.
The ego takes many forms, but the nationalist-figure it claims to be is the most prominent for us. Many Serbs have taken the first step in realising that they're was more to the war than what meets the eye, the same (maybe) cannot be said about the others.
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Post by Anittas on Sept 26, 2011 18:34:20 GMT -5
I suppose the Serbs never discriminated against the Romanian minority in Serbia and the Timov Vlachs: before the 90s, during the 90s, and even to this day.
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