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Post by ljubotan on Jan 19, 2012 14:28:47 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_SerbiaLook at lines 23 & 25 and notice the year and place of births. Scroll up to the top and see the guys who are born in Trnovo, BG. Why were they head of the Patriarch of Serbia and not Ohrid (which was still functioning during those years)?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jan 19, 2012 17:08:03 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_SerbiaLook at lines 23 & 25 and notice the year and place of births. Scroll up to the top and see the guys who are born in Trnovo, BG. Why were they head of the Patriarch of Serbia and not Ohrid (which was still functioning during those years)? Who cares, the point is the Macedonian church is much older than the Serbian; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_archbishops_of_the_Archbishopric_of_OhridIt is only a matter of political circumstance that the Macedonian church is in it's current state. The MOC - Ohrid Archbishopric will be recognised in time, just as the Bulgarian Orthodox church was after being schismatic for 80+ years....
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 19, 2012 18:07:41 GMT -5
"Too bad Serbs are too stupid, kind and naive to look south of Makedonia.... due to brotherly love for both Maks and Greeks..." Brate, +1, Serbs are a mega naive people, we are the lamb
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 19, 2012 19:13:29 GMT -5
"Pec - established 1219 AD www.spc.rs/eng/churchOhrid Archbishopric - established 1018 AD anything else?" Point l'm making is its command comes from Serbia Secondly, orthodoxy was FIRST taken up by Slavs from Northern Greece and spread to Slavs north of them. Thirdly, Slavs were then not calling themselves *Macedonians* or calling their language *Macedonian* but Slav in north greece. Finally, even in 1018, the people of Ohrid were NOT calling themselves *Macedonian* also.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 19, 2012 19:20:03 GMT -5
"Who cares, the point is the Macedonian church is much older than the Serbian" Older? .......techically, its younger, like l mentioned in my previous post, slavs from Vardar WEREN'T calling themselves *Macedonians* but SLAVS and their language SLAV, not *Macedonian*. To designate it correctly, one must associate their church to Serbian because for instance the tradition of Serbian SLAVA is widely popular in the region of Vardar. PS White Serbs did settle in those regions in which you call Macedonia in the 6th centuries, don't kid yourself Chento.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jan 19, 2012 20:00:32 GMT -5
Slavic tribes in the Balkans 6th century Serbs are north of the Shar mountains ie., north of geographic Macedonia, and today's R. Macedonia... BTW, the native inhabitants at this time were known as Romans. The Romans referred to the Slavs as Sklavinians, and to the Serbs as Serboi - two separate terms for two peoples.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 19, 2012 20:32:10 GMT -5
^ I'm really surprised with these western based *grossly inaccurate maps* and why they keep persisting with an underlying pro-bulgar agenda or shall l say this whole fantasy of Khan Kuber settling in Pelagonia (never happened). Where are the original white serbs who stayed behind in northern Greece, on the map, where are they in the region of vardar? Did they just vanish into thin air? I get annoyed that they arn't naming those slavic tribes according to their slavic names, i.e, Draguvites should be DRAGOVICI. Anyway Chento, have a look at the following: Wiki: "Archaeological evidence in Serbia and Macedonia conclude that the White Serbs may have reached the Balkans earlier than thought, between 550-600, as much findings; fibulae and pottery found at Roman forts point at Serb characteristics and thus could have been either part of the Byzantine foedorati or a fraction of the early invading Slavs who upon organizing in their refuge of the Dinarides, formed the ethnogenesis of Serbs and were pardoned by the Byzantine Empire after acknowledging their suzerainty.[2]" "In 649, Constantine III relocates conquered Slavs "from the Vardar" to GORDOSERVON (Serb habitat)." J.Mikotcy: "In 640 the SERBS SPREAD FIRST OVER MACEDONIA, then Illyria" Schafarik: "One part of the Serbs, unwilling to return with the majority to the north, REMAINED IN MACEDONIA" (Northern Greece) "From the seventh to the tenth centuries, there were five such transfers" "Between 1118 and 1143, Emperor John Comnenus resettled some of the Serbs in the region of NICOMEDIA" Hugo Grothe: " AS LATE AS THE NINTH CENTURY, Bulgarian inroads into uncoquered Slav territories were undoubtedly raids carried out by marauders, which COULD HARDLY LEFT ANY ETHNIC TRACES ON THESE TERRITORIES" PS Just ask Pyrro to translate a fabricated Bulgar wiki article on Kuber What a massive blow that was for the Bu Lgari LMAO
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jan 19, 2012 21:14:02 GMT -5
Serbs have no rightful claims on Macedonia, its land, or its people.
There was a Serbian presence in Macedonia, however, it has always been a minority isolated to the North Western parts of the present R. Macedonia.
Around the 6th c. there were some Serbs who traveled through what is R. Macedonia today, following the Vardar river, passing through parts of present day Northern Greece.. eventually settling in present day Turkey and founding a city known as Gordoservon in Anatolia.
The geographic region of Macedonia was a part of the Serbian Empire for a grand total of 22 years.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 20, 2012 0:16:49 GMT -5
^Ivo/moe, your BuLgari consciously knew Vardar is a region of Serbs, why would your hero "Tsar Asen" write an inscription in the church of the forty Martyrs in Trnovo (Bitola) that he had conquered "THE GREEK, THE ALBANIAN and THE SERBIAN LANDS." This inscription was written a hundred years before the Serbian conquest of Vardar. Remember, Serbs conquered Vardar as a Serbian COUNTRY.
"The geographic region of Macedonia was a part of the Serbian Empire for a grand total of 22 years."
Considering you now nothing about the history of Serbs and even most Serbs about their own too, lets analyse your 22 years:
Bulgarian rule in Vardar lasted from 861AD to 969AD, then from 1202AD to 1204AD, then finally from 1230AD to 1246AD, a grand total of 129 years in all.
The Serbian rule, not counting the reign of the Sultana Marija, lasted from 1282AD to 1413AD or 131 years in all.
PS Never in Serbian manuscripts from Milutin onwards did they ever mention Bulgars inhabiting Serbian Vardar.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jan 20, 2012 1:02:16 GMT -5
i already answered you to this question, your serbian land is mentioned at the last place because the bulgarians took parts from western serbia which was serbian at that time also.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 20, 2012 1:23:45 GMT -5
^ No, its a little crafty Bulgar twist used by you to mask the reality. WE HAVE SERBIAN TOPONYMS IN VARDAR AND ELSEWHERE prior to Milutin and Dushan etc....
Btw, you didn't answer anything.
Can you find for me anywhere in Milutin's biographies where there is a word BULGAR present?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 20, 2012 10:11:02 GMT -5
NOVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII THIS WILL MAKE THEM DANCE BROTHER ..... So there is Serbian music, DEEP IN MINOR ASIA........, inherited by greeks Also, check this out : www.cnnturk.com/2012/guncel/01/20/bogazici.koprusu.1.yil.kapanacak/645603.0/index.htmlWTF is Bogazici in turkish tang? ITS SIMPLY SERBS ALL OVER.... EVERY WHERE, yesterday i was listening to a greek singer "Stanisis" alright - Stanisic... the guy how own Bijeljina etno-selo... and the examples are going strong... CCCC
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jan 20, 2012 12:53:18 GMT -5
gyrro, we always claimed that the serbs have bigger claim on asia minor than on macedonia.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jan 20, 2012 14:23:25 GMT -5
Firstly, Gyrro.. you're the court jester, aside from Pazar no one takes what you have to say seriously.
The Second Bulgarian Empire ruled over lands that were Serbian, and I'm obviously not talking about Macedonia. The First Bulgarian Empire ruled over all of Serbia for a lot longer than the Serbian Empire ruled over Macedonia. So if your medieval rule of Macedonia is a factor that leads you to conclude that 'Macedonians are Serbs', then one can logically conclude that 'Serbs are actually Bulgars'.
Serbia has achieved a few notable things throughout its history, but they have nothing to do with Macedonia.
I'm no expert, but it's clear that I know more than you.
The geographic region of Macedonia has been an integral part of both the First Bulgarian Empire and the Second Bulgarian Empire. In fact, near the end of the First Bulgarian Empire when all that which was Bulgarian was concentrated in Macedonia, historians refer to it as the 'Western Bulgarian Empire' an entity that Macedonians today claim as some sort of a medieval 'Macedonian Empire'.
All history from Serbian sources pertaining to Macedonia can easily be discarded as political bull shit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this, you just need to step out of your comfort zone and consult some independent sources. OR, consult sources that your "Orthodox Brothers" the Greeks have written.
Given the fact that the Serbian government went out of its way to Serbianize all Bulgarian toponyms throughout Macedonia and Kosovo.. the credibility of the "Serbianness" of the toponyms you speak of is under question.
I repeat, Serbia has no rightful claims on Macedonia, its history, or its people. And even though Macedonian-Bulgarian relations are not so good these days, and even though many Macedonians today are highly pro-Serb.. there will always be a significant chunk of Bulgarians who will defend the true history of Macedonia and its people against Serbs and pseudo-Macedonians.
What you fail to understand is that there will never be an end to this, at least not in our lifetime. You also fail to understand that this goes beyond our discussions here.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jan 21, 2012 1:05:02 GMT -5
great post as always, ivo. too bad it is adressed to imbeciles.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 21, 2012 18:45:39 GMT -5
Ivo/moe you shouldn't had posted, your useless as always.
"The Second Bulgarian Empire ruled over lands that were Serbian, and I'm obviously not talking about Macedonia. The First Bulgarian Empire ruled over all of Serbia for a lot longer than the Serbian Empire ruled over Macedonia. So if your medieval rule of Macedonia is a factor that leads you to conclude that 'Macedonians are Serbs', then one can logically conclude that 'Serbs are actually Bulgars'."
In actual FACT Serbian rule over Vardar was 131 years compared to 129 years of BuLgarsko, if l add in the rule of Sultana Marija, it would be approximately 170+ years. According to your warped Bulgarian brain, Serbs never were in Vardar and when they ruled the region, they ruled over Bulgars. Its amazing how sly you shifty little Bulgars are because FACTUAL evidence tells me the opposite, the Bulgars were never in Vardar, but when they ruled the region they ruled over Serbs, hence why we have Serbian toponyms and serbian culture observed with the Vardarian Serbs prior to the first Bulgarian empire.
Serbia has achieved a few notable things throughout its history, but they have nothing to do with Macedonia.
I know, the Bulgars were a FORGOTTEN people during the Ottomans, weren't they Ivo, they pretty much were reduced to calling themselves narod, embarressed to call themselves BuLgari because it was translated as dirty, underclass or Vulgar.
I'm no expert, but it's clear that I know more than you.
Thats well known your no expert, you have great skills in deceiving people, l'll give you that.
"The geographic region of Macedonia has been an integral part of both the First Bulgarian Empire and the Second Bulgarian Empire. In fact, near the end of the First Bulgarian Empire when all that which was Bulgarian was concentrated in Macedonia, historians refer to it as the 'Western Bulgarian Empire' an entity that Macedonians today claim as some sort of a medieval 'Macedonian Empire'."
Read and learn some for once Ivo, from Vosnjak:
Between Bulgaria and this independant Macedonian Empire there is no connection at all. They are two distinct states as regards to population and origin, capital towns, and tendencies. The population of Bulgaria is a mixture of Turanian Bulgars and Slavs, and that of Macedonia is purely Southern Slav as that of Serbia, Croatia and the Slovene lands. The Bulgarian State was founded by the Bulgarian conquerors, that of Macedonia by the Slavs who desired to emancipate themselves from both Bulgaria and Byzantium. Bulgaria had her capitals in Pliskov and Preslava, north of the Balkan Chain; the capitals of the Macedonian Empires were Ochrida and Prespa on the Lakes of Prespa and Ochrida. But the Macedonian Empire was called Bulgaria. It is necessary to explain this seeming paradox. It arose from a special cause and had its logical justification. It was a legacy of the Bulgarian Empire name in Macedonia - the legacy of a bygone mastery and historic tradition.
In 971 the Byzantine Emperor John Zimisces subdued the whole of Bulgaria, whose empire at that time included Macedonia. When immediately afterwards Macedonia, Macedonia without Bulgaria, freed herself from Byzantium, she assumed the name Bulgaria, because she aspired to take over the heritage of fallen Bulgaria. Before her downfall Bulgaria ranked as an Empire; her rulers bore the imperial title, and were the upholders of an imperial policy and tradition. This heritage was vacant. Macedonia required immediate recognition and respect, and so took over the Bulgarian name and claims; she assumed even before conquering Bulgaria, and retained them later on after having lost her.
Thus it came about that the Macedonian Empire styled itself as Bulgaria. The name of the State is always stronger than the name of the nation. In this case also it was transferred from the State to the nation. This is why foreign writers from that time onward began to refer to the Southern Slavs of Macedonia as Bulgars too.
Instances of younger states usurping the name and heritage of other, older states are not infrequent in history. At the very same time when the Macedonian Empire was founded the German Emperors were building up a German Empire in outlying provinces of what had been the ancient Empire of Rome. They, too, appropriated the attributes of a former empire. They named their state the "Roman Empire" and styled themselves "Roman Emperors". The Byzantine Empire was only part of the ancient Roman Empire; nevertheless, down to its fall it styled itself the "Roman Empire," and its emperors called themselves "Roman Emperors". The Greek inhabitants of this "Roman Empire" called themselves "Romans". And just as the Roman name of the German and Greek Empires has no connection with the Romans, so the Bulgarian name in Macedonia has nothing to do with the Bulgars. All these names are only a memento of the empire whose heritage was assumed by those who bore them.
All history from Serbian sources pertaining to Macedonia can easily be discarded as political bull s**t. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this, you just need to step out of your comfort zone and consult some independent sources. OR, consult sources that your "Orthodox Brothers" the Greeks have written.
Sure, the Byzantine Emperor Contantine Porphyrogenitus wrote some time about 950AD that the town of Srpciste is in the district of Salonica near the River Bistrieca, at the foot of Olympus, derives its name from the Serbs who originally settled there.
"Given the fact that the Serbian government went out of its way to Serbianize all Bulgarian toponyms throughout Macedonia and Kosovo.. the credibility of the "Serbianness" of the toponyms you speak of is under question."
You stupid Mongol, how can Serbs for instance Serbianise Bulgarian toponyms in Vardar, i.e, Srbinovo to Srbinovo? or Srbica to Srbica or Dolenci Srpsko to Dolenci Srpsko or Srbjani to Srbjani
"And even though Macedonian-Bulgarian relations are not so good these days, and even though many Macedonians today are highly pro-Serb.. there will always be a significant chunk of Bulgarians who will defend the true history of Macedonia and its people against Serbs and pseudo-Macedonians."
Because Bulgars lie their a**es off, thats why Ivo.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 21, 2012 18:55:06 GMT -5
"THIS WILL MAKE THEM DANCE BROTHER ....."
Pyrro brate, good post, its funny how Ioan/Jovane tells you in the next post Serbs have more claims to Asia Minor than Vardar, but its those Slavs from Vardar WHO FOUNDED THE TOWN GORDOSERVON, not GORDOBULGAROS.
PS They are such wa**ers these BuLgari
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jan 21, 2012 21:03:41 GMT -5
Your utterance is that of a Neanderthal, as is your comprehension. No wonder they're an extinct species. Having such impaired abilities of expression; understanding the world around them must have been quite difficult. Prior to the Ottomans, Serbian rule over Macedonia lasted for only 22 years; during the Serbian Empire. As for the rest of what you wrote, you're confusing "Serbian rule" with " Serbian presence ". There was a Serb presence in Macedonia for a lot longer than 22 years, however, it has always been an isolated minority.
Is this the same Vosnjak who was a Yugoslav politician? You really should reference your sources properly.
My my how personal we've become. You can talk from a distance. Though it seems scarcity of knowledge has once again lead you to divert the discussion away from showing us all the almighty Serbian identity of Macedonia.
The same way they did with Bulgarian toponyms in Kosovo.
Poor ol' misinformed Pazar; that's the whole point. The Serbian chunk of Slavs that was of any significance during the early middle ages migrated and re-settled out of Macedonia and into Anatolia founding the city of Gordoservon.
I have merely provided properly referenced and internationally recognized sources from various time periods having different nations of origin. I've also shown that you don't read your own sources, quoting most of your material out of context and hoping for some misplaced moronic comment from Gyrro in support of your eternal want to be accepted as a Serb and a Serb alone rather than to be seen as a Torlak. Do yourself a favour, keep your identity crisis out of history discussions as you make yourself appear as a plain idiot.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jan 21, 2012 21:34:00 GMT -5
^ I've got no time right now, but l will again slam your F^cking mongolian a** back to eastern F^cking asia you ch**k. No one here cannot stand a BS artist like you who has multiple accounts.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jan 21, 2012 21:50:38 GMT -5
lol this is the only account I have.
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