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Post by Croatian Vanguard on May 2, 2012 7:45:02 GMT -5
20 years from now?
Kosovo will still be an independent country and would have settled its differences with Belgrade. The northern part of Kosovo might be given to Serbia as a final settlement. A partition.
As for the surrounding area:
The EU will have been dismantled or very close to the brink. Macedonia will become further decentralized and an official and political Albanian autonomous zone might exist there which will eventually lead to some kind of partition.
Greece will be in tact but very poor indeed. Good news is that it will have started a genuine economic recovery but it will take decades. I forsee some kind of strong economic collaboration with Serbia and Bulgaria. The Vojvodina region of Serbia will be further losing its ethnic diversity becoming more distinctly Serbian. Eventually Vojvodina's rich central-eastern European cultural influences will be wiped out by becoming more standardized to the rest of Serbian culture which is more Turko-Greek and Southern Balkan. The tamburica will be a memory there.
Croatia will be pretty much the same except that it will be more politically involved with Bosnia trying to resolve the status of the last Croatian enclave, the impregnable southwestern Herceg-Bosna. Herceg-Bosna might have some kind of official political union with Croatia depending on what happens with the Serb Republic and the rest of Bosnia. I see more promise in RS's future more than the FBiH. Muslims do not govern well and will still have conflicts with Croats while the Serbs will be more free to develope unimpeded making closer ties with Serbia and possibly some kind of official political union or political independence.
Here is a list of countries I think will be doing better or worse in 20 years :
Better: -Serbia -Albania -Romania
^^ These countries show the most potential for positive change actually.
Worse: -Bosnia ( depends on who's perspective though) -Macedonia -Greece -Slovenia
Pretty much the same or undetermined : -Croatia -Bulgaria
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on May 2, 2012 18:31:54 GMT -5
well i think serbia will start to get progressively worse, if they keep up their aggressive funding of serbs outside their borders and continue to ignore the simmering situation in sandzak and vojvodina, then it could get worse, though serbs have potential for large scale industrial capacity, if they get their house in order and resolve outstanding issues with neighbours then they can turn it around.
i do not understand how you reckon slovenia will become worse, they are the only sustainable success story of the balcans,
albania could make giant leaps forwards provided we address political issues, minimise corruption and set up a credible and robust judiciary system, otherwise we will just linger in a transitional stage indeffinitely.
greece will eventually turn it around, i don't buy all the gloom and doom talk it will take them less than a decade to get it together, get a handle on the debt, boost up the tourism sector and reform their public sector, greece is a too important to simply discard.
romania will probably move forward at a breakneck pace, they're on the cusp of getting it right, once europe slowly comes out of the recession and there's more liquidity, romania will explode.
croatia will be ok too
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 2, 2012 22:59:52 GMT -5
"Novi bro, the same idiotic proud "mountain" theory is played by the grekalbs as well... Surprise!!! even in high mountains the toponyms are STILL SERBIAN!!!"
Brate, we have an Albanologist stating that Slavic loan words are used FOR MOUNTAIN VEGETATION, in the majority, while Latin is more strongly used for lowland areas, this completely contradicts the mountain theory, in which we both knew from the beginning it doesn't add up. Pyrro, l believe most Albanian loans for Maritime (sea) are from Slavs also, it leads me to believe the Albanians arn't native to this area at all, but come from somewhere else.
Pyrro, some *speculate* that Albanians might have decended from the Mardaite people?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 3, 2012 2:25:01 GMT -5
^^^^ SO TRUE. Albanians are definitely alien to the place. Same holds for Greeks like me. But at least my ancestors came from either Thessaly or Minor Asia. albs came from checnhya.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2012 3:14:15 GMT -5
Pyrro, we have a Byzantine commander writing down what he had WITNESSED but its scoffed at because it doesn't fit the agenda of Greater Albania, or as the Germano-British agenda of Albania as a buffer toward Serbia, that is the whole reason why this state was created in the first place, it was to KEEP SERBIA AWAY FROM THE ADRIATIC! In their view it was dangerous for Serbia to have access to the sea.
Pyrro, have a read from Henry Skene:
The Albanians Henry Skene Journal of the Ethnological Society of London (1848-1856), Vol. 2. (1850).
The Albanians are divided into four tribes. These are, the Gheghides and Mirdites, the Toskides, the Tsamides, and the Liapides.
The Toskides are the most handsome of the Albanians. They have noble features, with fair hair and blue eyes, indicating the mixture of Georgian blood, which probably flows in their veins : less warlike than their countrymen of the other tribes, their stature is also less Herculean. They are supposed to have derived their name from the Toxidse, mentioned by Chardin as inhabiting Mingrelia.
The country now occupied by this tribe lies to the south of that of the Ghegs and Mirdites, and extends to the river Vojutza. It is called by themselves Toskouria. Their chief places are Elbassan and Berat, called by the Turks Arnaout Belgrad, in order to distinguish it from Belgrade on the Danube. Te-pellene, the birth-place of Ali Pasha, is now included in their territory, although it was formerly considered as belonging to the infamous Liapides.
The women of the Toske tribe are remarkable for their beauty, like those of Georgia, whence they issue, according to the conjecture of some antiquaries.
In their own language they call themselves Skipetar, which name bears some affinity with that of of the Skitekip, mentioned by the Armenian geographers as inhabiting a territory near the Caspian.
Journal of the Ethnological Society of London (1848-1856) Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland
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Post by Shqipni13 on May 3, 2012 3:33:20 GMT -5
^Skipetar related to skitekip? Yeah trash what Noel Malcolm says but Henry Skene is automatically legit? I don't understand your thought process.
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donnie
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Nike Leka i Kelmendit
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Post by donnie on May 3, 2012 4:11:38 GMT -5
The Albanians Henry Skene Journal of the Ethnological Society of London (1848-1856), Vol. 2. ( 1850). You couldn't find anything more up to date? ;D
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2012 5:02:39 GMT -5
^ Just added something in for the hell of it Donnie, primarily to show you Albanians that its not something Serbs advocated, maybe they know something, the English and they are delibrately hiding it from us, OR as John Wilkes mentions, its the Albanians who are distorting the picture.
Time will tell ;D
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on May 3, 2012 5:10:43 GMT -5
serbs have dedicated unfathomable resources through the centuries to wipe off albanian traces to antiquity, you have dedicated an entire academy to distort and twist the truth, you have allocated much effort and spend so much downplaying albanian claims, you need to mind your own fucking business, you can't seek validation by putting down others.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 3, 2012 5:18:13 GMT -5
^ Sure, take for example atd, Rugova who CLAIMED all those Serbian monasteries in Kosova as catholic *ALBANIAN* ones which were later converted to Serbian during the colonisation of the Ottoman period. So then, why are Albanians DESTROYING their own original ancient monasteries in Kosova?
I don't get it?
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atdhetar
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tonight we dine in hell!
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Post by atdhetar on May 3, 2012 6:03:10 GMT -5
what? what don't you get? you don't get it because you are severily mentally deficient mate, not all monasteries found in kosovo were formerly catholic, albanians have not destroyed all monasteries in kosovo
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 3, 2012 6:47:55 GMT -5
what? what don't you get? you don't get it because you are severily mentally deficient mate, not all monasteries found in kosovo were formerly catholic, albanians have not destroyed all monasteries in kosovo call some doctor, quickly... the rathead is losing it. listen idiot, there still SERBIAN OTHODOX churches in central Greece, from the time of the Serbian empires, what makes you believe that the case of the former Serbian capital in Kosovo should be any different... CATHOLIC you say? in the heart of balkans? LMAO
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on May 3, 2012 7:39:41 GMT -5
picko you exhibit all the symptoms of a frustrated cuckold
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 3, 2012 7:43:36 GMT -5
picko you exhibit all the symptoms of a frustrated cuckold at least i dont claim the medieval SERBIAN churches of Kosovo as catholic ;D
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atdhetar
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tonight we dine in hell!
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Post by atdhetar on May 3, 2012 7:54:52 GMT -5
right, you're an emasculated cuckold who doesn't claim that churches in kosovo were catholic
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 3, 2012 16:40:14 GMT -5
Tomic: "Albanian were pushed up the mountains"Seriously, l cannot buy this arguement RD, for Albanians to decide to migrate up in the mountains which Slavs named them and then later Albanians comming down and calling these same mountains after which Slavs named them is ridiculous, don't you agree?No, I definitely do NOT agree. Clearly, we are following different thought tracks. I never asked you to agree with me, knowing how impossible that would be; the best we can hope for is to lay it all out for the record and everyone thinks it through for themselves. As I said in my closing words "let's just agree to disagree". The freedom to think for ourselves might be one of the last freedoms we really have left. I must say, you really don’t know what I truly think about the Illyrian-Alb connection, yet you persist in calling my views as stupid Alb-nationalist drivel with a big hidden, misty, wet dream of a Greater Albania, when in fact I am basing my views on the multitude of serious modern scholarship on the topic. When I loosely said that Albanians are an outcropping of the Illyrians I already acknowledged I was making a gross oversimplification of history. I cannot possibly capture centuries of history in one sentence. Even a paragraph hardly does it justice, and I am not here to write a book. I am willing to bet there are plenty of Serbs who just couldn’t give a damn where Albanians come from, there are probably quite a few who are willing to acknowledge our old Balkan continuity, and there’s a few – the ones we meet so often on the Internet – that will yell out to anyone who will listen “Albanians are Chechens”. (This includes that strange muzhik wannabe, Pyrros). As far as the "Illyrians" are concerned, I don’t think you understand how little is truly known about them. The "Illyrian" category is typically a catch-all phrase, usually defined from the negative standpoint, meaning that if you weren’t Greek, Roman or Slav, then you end up in the “Illyrian” filing cabinet. They never referred to themselves as "Illyrians", although outsiders called them that. They spoke different but related dialects. During their two thousand year stay in Balkan, they must have gone through a lot of change, mingling with Celts and their neighbors, as all Balkan and European populations have always done. But eventually, the Illyrians got whooped. The Romans gave them a hard spanking, killed a few Illyrians, shuffled out the troublemakers and subjugated the rest into paying tribute. Illyrians did not die off but became heavily Romanized especially along the Adriatic coast, and we know them as Romanized Illyrians, later contributing able soldiers and military leaders to the empire. As Rome was falling apart there came the Goths, then the Huns and Avars swept through, then Slavs and Bulgars came and settled (I am talking over the whole Balkan region, including the territory of modern Albania). Just as some Illyrian tribes become Romanized, Slavs surely incorporated some “Illyrians” among their own. It’s fairly certain that at this point the “Illyrian” identity largely ceased to exist, some having been Romanized and some Slavicized. The “Illyrian” culture and identity became largely swamped out by the more powerful Greco-Roman tradition and the more numerous Slavs. However, a fraction of the “Illyrian” people, the flesh and blood people – not the “Illyrian” label – did not die off. Pressed from all fronts, they retreated in the relative safety of the Albanian highlands. I’ll remind you that no nation have completely died off as a people, they merely get submerged in the wave of the conquerors. Even Genghis Khan of the Mongols, whose armies killed over a million people in a single day, who considered an absolute and total depopulation of China so he could turn it into horse pastures, even he did not accomplish this. As his generals reminded him, living Chinese pay more taxes than dead ones. By all accounts, the Thracian ethnicity died out from history, but the Thracian people along with the Slavs contributed to the makeup of Bulgaria. Dacians also disappeared as an ethnic identity but they contributed something of their language and people to Romania. The Achaeans, the Ionic and the Doric Greeks came in waves and imposed their culture upon the earlier tribes, but still the people remained. Illyrians became Romanized and Slavicized, but only the Albanians did not get a piece of this action? Slavs even settled in the mountains (they named these mountains). These prior topoymns cannot be translated with the Albanian language, nor can the Albanian language be able to translate the current Slavic topoymns. So again what ever is presented to us here that explains prior 11th century Albanian inhabitation of the area is either a myth or some speculation. As far as the issue of toponyms goes, it’s not a conclusive argument. We know Slavs came and started renaming everything from Albania and into Greece, there’s no doubting that. But the situation is similar to the arrival of the Europeans in North America; most everything now has Spanish and AngloSaxon toponyms sprinkled in with the occasional lake Okeechobee and Thonotosassa river of Native American origin. Can we conclude from that the continent has always been European and the Native AmerIndians are a recent arrival from Central Asia? Easy and hasty conclusions can be the wrong conclusions. Even if all other populations were magically removed from North America and only the Native Americans were left, they could not go back and re-name everything back to its original Indian name; much of the ancestral knowledge is lost, and there would not even be much point in even trying. People get on with life, no matter what the mountains and rivers are called, unless you are Greek of course, and go back to rename places to stamp out the proof that Slavs set up shop at their doorstep. The laughable ideal of purity. You also misrepresent the fact of what the Alb language can explain. It can explain some Illyrian toponyms but not all of them. Albs did not get the monopoly on the Illyrians. It’s not like all the Illyrian tribes decided to send a pair of representatives to be included in the Alb people, like some sort of Illyrian Noah’s Ark to preserve every culture and dialect. The same Wilkes we’ve been quoting, the one you threw at my feet, acknowledges as much, that some Illyrian tribal names and toponyms can be explained through Albanian. Again, there isn't ANY evidence that Albanian (Shqiptar) are direct decendants of Illyrians, we have a huge gap been the last recordings of Illyrians and the FIRST recording of the Albanian (shqiptar) group. It amazes me that you seem to believe that the Albanian (Shqiptar) group could be undetected for such a long time without getting noticed by Byzantines, Slavs or even Romanised populations, but just hid themselves up in the caves of central albania for 800 years, c'mon, this is stupidity at its best. There certainly is no evidence that you are willing to accept. And the Slavs seem to have recorded nothing anyway. In fact nothing much is recorded about anything, the area simply went through its dark age. The byzantines at least mention the Romanized Illyrian, the Romioi or smth like that. Even when the Arber Albs are mentioned they are mentioned at almost intervals of a century, being of little political and military significance. You fellas, however, like to exploit the gap as total discontinuity of a people, and to sneak in your favorite theory-du-jour; Albs as Chechens, Albs as Georgians, Albs as Caucasians, Albs as Arabs, etc. People have indeed been living and speaking since before there are any records of them besides a few charred bones and some paint on a cave. Absence of evidence is not the same as absence of the thing itself. You assume too much if that is your whole thought process. It's like saying cavemen painted only in caves because that's all the evidence we have, indeed they could have painted their bodies, animal skins, anything really of which nothing survives as evidence after 15 000 years. How will the Mona Lisa look in 15 000 years? Will it exist at all? Or will it be like there never was a man called DaVinci that painted a famous portrait? RD, if this is the case then Wilkes is hypocritical because he does say the following: In the matter of physical character, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries suggests no more than average height ( male 1.65 m; female 1.53). Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians. John Wilkes The Peoples of Europe: The Illyrians Page: 219 1992 Blackwell Publishers Those Illyrians must have been some giants standing at 165cm, not unlike those dirty Albanian pygmies, eh? How short do you think Albs are, brate? And dark-skinned? Serbs look like gypsies compared to the Polish, your Slavic brethren. There are some arguments I don’t think you can afford. I think it’s some of you fellas who don’t understand Wilkes, and reach for anything that will ridicule Albanians, no matter how far-fetched and un-critically presented. I have never known a Serb who didn’t quote me that line from Wilkes, touting him as the world’s foremost authority on Illyrians. Please! Honestly, man, believe what you want. I don’t really care. Despite all proof to the contrary, there are people who still believe that a magical jewish carpenter created them, guards them with invisible beings, and will feed them chocolates once they get a ticket so their soul can go to Heaven. And for something a little more down to Earth, there are people who insist the world is flat. Might I suggest you apply for membership? theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 3, 2012 23:50:56 GMT -5
^^^^ SO TRUE. Albanians are definitely alien to the place. Same holds for Greeks like me. But at least my ancestors came from either Thessaly or Minor Asia. albs came from checnhya. Shut the fück up you assmunching fool of a fück. By your own admission you are Arvanitas, that is your ancestors came from South Albania. Trying so very hard to convince everyone that everything in Balkan is Slavic so that people will give you the benefit of the doubt which might mean you could be passed off as a whitewashed Slav only shows your deep complexes. You are more Albanian than you think, and by the criticism you level against Albs, you are acting just like you portray them - as pathetic suck ups. Have some balls and some pride in yourself, man. Brate this, brate that, brate please do me the honor of doing me with a rusty communist dildo. You are not Slav and never will be, so stop acting like a wigger. Fool.
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 0:07:49 GMT -5
SLAVIC HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS Kortlandt, Frederik. Studies in Slavic and General Linguistics, suppl. Selected Writings on Slavic and General Linguistics 39 (2011): 2.2. PIE *s was retracted to *s after % *u, *r and *k in Balto-Slavic, Albanian, Armenian and Indo- Iranian. This development remained subphonemic until the spirantization of *c < PIE *k (see 5.8 below). 2.3. The PIE palatovelars were depalatalized before résonants unless the latter were followed by a front vowel, e.g. OCS slovo 'word', Gr. ??, but Lith. klausyti £to listen'. This development was common to Balto-Slavic and Albanian
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 0:22:47 GMT -5
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 0:26:11 GMT -5
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