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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 0:40:42 GMT -5
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 0:50:11 GMT -5
If you slicks can't tell the difference between propaganda and contemporary scholarship, I fear you are beyond any power of mine to help. Go ahead, tell us again when did Albanians come into Balkan. It makes a nice bedtime story. ^^^^ SO TRUE. Albanians are definitely alien to the place. Same holds for Greeks like me. But at least my ancestors came from either Thessaly or Minor Asia. albs came from checnhya. Pyrros, it bears repeating. My parting gift to you. Shut the fück up you assmunching fool of a fück. By your own admission you are Arvanitas, that is your ancestors came from South Albania. Trying so very hard to convince everyone that everything in Balkan is Slavic so that people will give you the benefit of the doubt which might mean you could be passed off as a whitewashed Slav only shows your deep complexes. You are more Albanian than you think, and by the criticism you level against Albs, you are acting just like you portray them - as pathetic suck ups. Have some balls and some pride in yourself, man. Brate this, brate that, brate please do me the honor of doing me with a rusty communist dildo. You are not Slav and never will be, so stop acting like a wigger. Fool.
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Post by plisbardhi on May 4, 2012 0:55:25 GMT -5
Wilkes greatly overstepped his expertise with the "short and dark" passage. Here we are entering the realm of physical anthropology, which his book otherwise completely neglects much to its detriment.
It simply doesn't reflect the physical reality of Albanians. Wilkes may have simply had the fortune to only meet short and dark Albs, who knows. Even our resident self-hater pyrros who claims we are short (keep in mind he thinks he's Bosnian) at least admits we are a light colored people.
If we take Ghegs to represent the closest thing to the original Alb group, hence the most relevant for connection to the Illyrians, we need only to read Carleton Coon's extensive studies on them to see that "short and dark" is quite the opposite of the reality of Gheg physique. Its needless to say where Coon stands on the Illyrian-Albanian question, a man who is not unfamiliar with Illyrian skeletal and cranial remains.
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Post by plisbardhi on May 4, 2012 1:28:32 GMT -5
PS
60 years ago the mean stature of Ghegs was 171.5
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 4, 2012 2:16:23 GMT -5
"As far as the issue of toponyms goes, it’s not a conclusive argument. We know Slavs came and started renaming everything from Albania and into Greece, there’s no doubting that. But the situation is similar to the arrival of the Europeans in North America; most everything now has Spanish and AngloSaxon toponyms sprinkled in with the occasional lake Okeechobee and Thonotosassa river of Native American origin. Can we conclude from that the continent has always been European and the Native AmerIndians are a recent arrival from Central Asia? Easy and hasty conclusions can be the wrong conclusions."
Anglo-Saxons still dominate Northern America, where are the Slavs of Albania, THEY HAD BEEN ASSIMILATED INTO YOUR ETHNOS!
RD, regarding ancient Greek loans, listen, Greek was the language of the ancient times, just like English today. England is situated so far away from Greece that it uses many Greek and even ancient Greek loan words. When the Byzantine Empire was in full swing, it streched long distances from southern Europe into Asia Minor and northern Arabia.
I would like to add about your arguement regarding Romance influence on Albanian language, yes, Romance did have influence on the language, because again, just with the Slavs, many Romanised locals (Vlachs) were assimilated into the Albanian ethnos. Even with Serbian language, there has been the influence of Romance language (Vlachs), we can see this through many surnames in Serbian that are clearly of Romance origin.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 4, 2012 2:24:10 GMT -5
RD, here i'm not calling Albanians Chechens, l believe they have come from somewhere else. Again we have Coon who made the following observation/s:
Physically, the people looked more European than any others I had seen in the Middle East, both in their facial features and in their clothing. Many of them particularly resembled northern Albanians, a people whom I had studied in 1929 and 1930 and I soon saw one reason why. In Albania, mothers strap babies to cradles, which they carry with them as they go to the market or go about their work. Although the infants’ heads are no bound, the immobilization of their shoulders forces them to lie on the back of their heads. As a result the heads are flattened in infancy and this condition is retained throughout life. As soon as I saw a pair of young mothers carrying their babies in such cradles, I knew why these people looked so much like Albanians.
Here was a surviving culture closely linked to the origins of European civilization, lived in by a people of European physical type, in the one part of Iran which has enough rainfall to preserve the forest on which its technological aspects depended.
There could be no question of this culture having come from Europe. The whole trend of history has gone in the opposite direction.
The Seven Caves Carleton Stevens Coon Chapter 4: Belt Cave and the Caspian Shore Page: 135 Knopf, New York, 1957
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 4, 2012 3:29:18 GMT -5
RD, lets be for real, all Indo-European languages are going to resemble each other and share some traits. We Slavs can pull words out of our lexicon and demonstrate how similar it sounds or when we pronounce a word that is similar to some latin words. However, Albanian (Shqiptar) is known as a Satem language (Eastern) not Western (Centum), Albanian is in the same group as Slavic (Satem).
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 4, 2012 3:36:14 GMT -5
RD, l just want to touch upon the Mountain theory again. If Albanians were the Illyrians who stayed isolated in everysingle mountains inside modern Albania for 800 to 900 years not getting detected by Byzantines, Romanised populations and even later by Slavs, then surely the Albano-Illyrians would had remembered all their original names for Fauna and Flora up in the mountains. Even so, they would had remembered the Slavic invasion through ORAL testemonies etc....
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 4, 2012 5:46:44 GMT -5
^^ good one as well. All the rural lexis used to be Serbian-Slavic in the balkans. In our village we didnt say "aggouri" (cucumber) we said kastraveci (krastavac), we didn't say kefali (head) we said glava, we didn;t say saura (lizzard) we said gousterica....
it used to be all slavic..... it used to be wonderful!!
now we are full of corpses : ancient greek, illirian, thracian, latin... all dead and gone civilizations aimed primarily to dead and gone brains (albs, greeks)
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on May 4, 2012 14:13:13 GMT -5
how are ancient civlisations such as greek, illyrian and thracian aimed at present day albos and greeks?
does anyone understand what this motherfucker is trying to say? i have yet to read one coherent thought.
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Post by rex362 on May 4, 2012 14:36:50 GMT -5
^^ good one as well. All the rural lexis used to be Serbian-Slavic in the balkans. In our village we didnt say "aggouri" (cucumber) we said kastraveci (krastavac), we didn't say kefali (head) we said glava, we didn;t say saura (lizzard) we said gousterica.... it used to be all slavic..... it used to be wonderful!! now we are full of corpses : ancient greek, illirian, thracian, latin... all dead and gone civilizations aimed primarily to dead and gone brains (albs, greeks) hey Pyrros my distant cousin while your in Bulgaria do some research in that great country ...this is from another forum I will quote "There is not such a thing as : "Slavic tribes" or "Slavic genes". Bearing Slavic names for some of the places, not necesseraly means Slavic residency, but it rather shows the Slavism spreading through the religion. That means that even the so called Greece has fallen under Bulgarian Church administrtion for some time. No Serbian tribes, has ever put step on Peloponnessus, because they simply didn't exist, but the Bulgarian religious authorities, ruled over the land, naming some of them in their Church Language"
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Post by rex362 on May 4, 2012 15:11:57 GMT -5
Then again Pyrros you as a vlach /Bro /Vla should know the Balkan vlach speakers are simply Illyro-Albanians that took the Language of the Roman soldiers while pushing aside their Illyro-Albanian tongue ...the road of egnatia is simple common sense of this Latin accepted language from the Roman soldiers ...and very little to do with the bs Romanian propaganda \ little amount of common old Latin is all and yes they speak that old Latin but with an Albanian tongue and diphthongs .... Every time I have heard that Aromanian tongue being spoken from a distance I have always perked my ears and concentration on it bcs of its Albanian style and then sigh and say "ah there goes some old distant Bro's " And like the Illyro-Albanian language and the use of Vlach/Aromanian they have always been both oral nothing written just like all indigenous people of/on upon their own lands ....remember that, its very important bcs others that were writing were only writing to make title and ownership and copying our heroics and bravery same ways - same people - same dance/music and customs -same hand and body movements/gestures and same mf'n look...You know exactly what I mean ...and thus its both these people of common blood but differ tongue that were subdued as well as being copied by slavs and the mixed greks ps.... my distant cousin pyrros ....I shall fix your yaya's leaky roof if you cant make it back sooner ,Maybe Adhetari helps me out ...no worries stay healthy in Bulgaria and walk upon it as if was your own, like in all the Balkans bcs it simply was and still is ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) ... Our Pelasgian playground
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 15:51:58 GMT -5
where are the Slavs of Albania, THEY HAD BEEN ASSIMILATED INTO YOUR ETHNOS! YES RD, regarding ancient Greek loans, listen, Greek was the language of the ancient times, just like English today. England is situated so far away from Greece that it uses many Greek and even ancient Greek loan words. When the Byzantine Empire was in full swing, it streched long distances from southern Europe into Asia Minor and northern Arabia. This is not quite correct. The ancient world functioned differently from our own age in at least two respects. Loan words into a language came in from specific contacts in time and place. This has been true throughout history, and is still somewhat true today. People borrowed from the period during which the contact existed. Even today we speak modern English and other people absorb modern English words but we don’t speak or borrow from Middle English (which even Englishmen cannot understand anymore without special training), let along Old English. Proto-Alb speakers borrowed from northwestern Doric Greek, the people they made contact with sometime Before Current Era (BCE), and they did not borrow from the later Ionian Greek or the distant Cretans. Scholars clearly spell this out as a specific point of contact whereby Proto-Alb speaker acquired some Doric Greek vocabulary relating to agricultural activities. In fact Proto-Alb seems to have borrowed very little from ancient Greek, which as you probably know, leads scholars to suggest that proto-Alb speakers were located or widespread further North from we know them today, north of Jirecek line. The difference in our modern age is that we have access to materials and knowledge and mass communications technology that the ancients did not possess. We can access and analyze vocabulary from very ancient strata, whereas the ancients themselves pretty much only had a record of the language as it was spoken at the time period in which they lived. Today it’s possible for modern English to have used or borrowed ancient Greek words because we have recovered the ancient records, but don’t forget that ancient Greek knowledge and literature was lost to the European world during the Dark and Early Middle Ages. During this time no ancient Greek words or ideas could have been borrowed into English or any other Euro language. It was only after the contacts were made during the Crusades that this ancient knowledge started flowing back into Europe, having been preserved by the Arabs. In other words, Alb speakers couldn’t have borrowed ancient Doric Greek vocab from the Byzantine Greeks. Scholars confirm the specificity of time, place and nature of borrowings. When we borrowed Turkish words, we borrowed the words as they were spoken at the time of the contact, not as they were written or spoken centuries ago somewhere in central Asia. I would like to add about your arguement regarding Romance influence on Albanian language, yes, Romance did have influence on the language, because again, just with the Slavs, many Romanised locals (Vlachs) were assimilated into the Albanian ethnos. Even with Serbian language, there has been the influence of Romance language (Vlachs), we can see this through many surnames in Serbian that are clearly of Romance origin. As far as the proto-Alb and proto-Romanian argument, your counter-argument is of limited value. Vlachs may have contributed somewhat to early Albanian but these would be late loan words. Whereas, linguistic scholars recognize a deeper affinity between proto-Alb and proto-Romanian, and they aren’t simple loan words, they are talking about a matter of substratum, about similarities in syntax and morphology going back before the Romans (and therefore before Vlahs). Again, it’s not me saying this, it’s linguistic scholarly analysis that says this.
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atdhetar
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Post by atdhetar on May 4, 2012 15:52:46 GMT -5
does his grandad make his own ouzo? maybe we'll sit down after we fix that roof and have a mezza with the old timer and talk about what a colossal disapointment his ungrateful nephew is
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Post by rex362 on May 4, 2012 15:57:17 GMT -5
^ meze is a given
but he is a good panty washer .....you have to admit
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 15:59:38 GMT -5
I don’t understand the importance you think this passage by Coon has for you. If you could explain it to me what you think it means and why you’d brought it up, I’d be happy to hear it. I am not trying to trap you into something or chew you up, I just don’t see the point you're trying to make. I’ll go first and tell you what my reading of it is. RD, here i'm not calling Albanians Chechens, l believe they have come from somewhere else. Again we have Coon who made the following observation/s: Physically, the people looked more European than any others I had seen in the Middle East, both in their facial features and in their clothing. Many of them particularly resembled northern Albanians, a people whom I had studied in 1929 and 1930 and I soon saw one reason why.So, here he is saying that the Iranian people look more European than most Arabs, and that they look a lot like Geg North Albs. In Albania, mothers strap babies to cradles, which they carry with them as they go to the market or go about their work. Although the infants’ heads are no bound, the immobilization of their shoulders forces them to lie on the back of their heads. As a result the heads are flattened in infancy and this condition is retained throughout life. As soon as I saw a pair of young mothers carrying their babies in such cradles, I knew why these people looked so much like Albanians. Here he is saying that Alb mothers strap their babies on the cradle which is partly responsible for the flat back of the head when the babies grow up. He sees a couple of Iranian mothers also carrying their babies in cradles in similar fashion, and realizes that this is responsible for the flat skull look, giving them a similar look to Albs. Here was a surviving culture closely linked to the origins of European civilization, lived in by a people of European physical type, in the one part of Iran which has enough rainfall to preserve the forest on which its technological aspects depended.
There could be no question of this culture having come from Europe. The whole trend of history has gone in the opposite direction. Here he is saying he thinks Iranian culture and people originated in Europe and have managed to survive. (?) I don’t see how this has anything to with Albanians, besides the similarity in skull flattening due to a mechanical pressure transformation. If you could summarize the point for us that would be great.
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 16:07:37 GMT -5
RD, lets be for real, all Indo-European languages are going to resemble each other and share some traits. We Slavs can pull words out of our lexicon and demonstrate how similar it sounds or when we pronounce a word that is similar to some latin words. However, Albanian (Shqiptar) is known as a Satem language (Eastern) not Western (Centum), Albanian is in the same group as Slavic (Satem). Yes, true that all Euro languages share common origins and thus some common traits. Both the similarities and the differences among languages are important in helping determine how they all fit, how they developed in relationship to each other. Yet you guys consistently downplay the positive sides of the argument and only focus on the negatives. Comparative linguistics is a real field with real talented scholarship, these guys aren't just solving crossword puzzles; their professional opinions and conclusions carry weight. Why don’t you acknowledge the statement of professional linguist opinion that Albanian is a distinct IndoEuropean language, clearly showing autochton Balkan roots? Instead you dedicate all your energies and focus on the differences, on why Albanian can’t be Illyrian, why it can’t be Thracian. These are subcategories of which very little is known. In all this wide field of research, do you see even a single hint of a connection to any Caucasian language and people? Maybe the theory was considered 150 years ago, and you might find references in the literature of 1850 about that. But, all those other theories haven't stood up the test of time and the scrutiny of modern scholarship and have been since discarded. The only languages in the running are paleo-balkan languages.
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Post by rex362 on May 4, 2012 16:13:36 GMT -5
It is high treason for a Neo Greek or Serb to acknowledge Albanians as descendants of the Illyrians It keeps their conception of a Quasi Genetic unity of each of their races together -Fact-
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Post by realitydysfunction on May 4, 2012 16:17:35 GMT -5
RD, l just want to touch upon the Mountain theory again. If Albanians were the Illyrians who stayed isolated in everysingle mountains inside modern Albania for 800 to 900 years not getting detected by Byzantines, Romanised populations and even later by Slavs, then surely the Albano-Illyrians would had remembered all their original names for Fauna and Flora up in the mountains. Even so, they would had remembered the Slavic invasion through ORAL testemonies etc.... Novi, I don’t care to talk about the Illyrian survivors right now. That won’t get us anywhere. You on the other hand seem to think that Albanians (originally from Caucasia) were brought to present day Albania after having fought and lost to SerboByzantines in Constantinople in the 11th century. Serbs allowed these Albanians to settle around Shkumbin where they awaited the arrival of the Turks to spread them far and wide. Your only source for this is the (mis)reading of Atteliates. You have no real proof that these Albanians were the actual Arbanitas (Shqiptar ancestors), even Atteliates seems to make a distinction between the two as he uses different names for them. Byzantines only refer to Arbanitas, unambiguously. You have no material proof of a migration a people, Albanian or Arbanitas or whatever, from Caucasus into Albania, at any time. You have no linguistic, archaeological, material culture or any other connection between Shqiptar Albs any people in Caucasus, now living or dead.You have no record of any numbers large enough to make any difference, in fact you have no numbers at all. All you have is the one line from Atteliates and you are twisting it to explain the full-fledged formation of the Alb nation and ethnicity. I don’t understand how some Serbs think one line can create an entire history of a people. Just like you guys often reduce all of Wilkes’ work into that one line about “short and dark-skinned modern Albanians”. Do you think these one-liners are made of gold or something? It doesn't much matter that you think you have a WITNESS, as you like to capitalize on it. History is made from a lot and a lot and lot of supportive evidence coming from all scientific fields, including archaeology and material remains of cultures, linguistics, genetics, our knowledge of historical and physical processes, etc, etc. If I were to tell you that Alexander the Great with a 10 000 man army defeated a Persian army one million man strong, you’d know I am either lying to you or yanking your chain. It is known what the manpower available to Alexander was, and a one million man Persian army is a historical impossibility. It’s impossible because we know with a good degree of approximation what the population of Persia was, based on size on ancient cities and villages. It is known what population densities ancient cities could support based on their level of agriculture, amount of land dedicated to crops and other climate factors, as archaeology and earth sciences tell us. The logistics of raising, feeding, moving and financing such an army are enormous and forbidding. The water requirement alone for a single day for a million men would be a nightmare. You see, that’s how good contemporary, post-communist history is made; every single fact fits into a larger picture supported by good material evidence and process knowledge. Everything we know or conclude about historical events is corroborated by an incredible number of supporting facts coming from all sources of scientific investigation at our disposal. All by itself any single “fact” is very near useless and tell us nothing of real value. Your version of the arrival and spread of Albanians from Caucasus to present-day Albania via Sicily has zero historical support. I repeat it, it has ZERO MATERIAL SUPPORTING EVIDENCE from any other historical source or process. If your tortuous and twisted explanation of Attalates’ line is good enough for you, I am just letting you know it’s not good enough for me for the reasons I have described here and elsewhere. Whatever the specific extraction of the Albanian people may have been, they did not come from Caucasus at the 11th century. In fact, they can’t be shown to have come from anywhere else in the world besides from inside the Balkan area. Novi, sometimes it’s cool to let someone else be more cool than you.
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Post by uz on May 4, 2012 18:08:44 GMT -5
It is high treason for a Neo Greek or Serb to acknowledge Albanians as descendants of the Illyrians It keeps their conception of a Quasi Genetic unity of each of their races together -Fact- I always had trouble understanding the above statement. What Serbs or Greeks aknowledge should mean nothing to you. Moreover, what do Albanians aknowledge about the Illryrians exactly? Since there is nothing you hold today that is illyrian you only depend on your quasi-genetic link. --- This is the myth.
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