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Post by valmir on Aug 9, 2012 19:37:52 GMT -5
Hello guys, i wanted to open this thread to make a very simple and interesting question about the Albanians and the Bosnians.
Why did the Albanians and the Bosnians accepted Islam massively while the other nations like Bulgarians,Greeks,Croatians didn't? What we had different from the other Balkanians,and what made us convert to Islam?
Please be serious in your comments and do not insult anyone.
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Post by uz on Aug 10, 2012 11:18:56 GMT -5
Not everyone thought of themselves to be in the position to "covert and survive". Survival back then had many other aspects other than religion. The Albanians and Bosnians probably wanted to identify closer to the Ottomans, more-so than anyone else.
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Post by groet on Aug 10, 2012 12:41:16 GMT -5
Largely due to the lack of one consistent and strong religious organization. Both people were situated where there was competition between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. What was the case in Kosova especially, was that the Catholic Church didn't manage to properly extend its influence, there was a lack of clergymen and a lack of clear organization. This was largely due to the ineptitude and the corruption of the Catholic Church. There then became a theistic 'void'. Islam offered benefits beyond merely the scope of the spiritual world of people, but also benefits of the real world. Albanians, with a tradition of an individualistic lifestyle would be especially prone to converting to Islam for such benefits: the right to carry weapons, exemption from taxes or a lowering of taxes and so on.
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Post by valmir on Aug 10, 2012 15:15:50 GMT -5
I think thats true groet, i have analysed this for a long time and the only reason for this convertion should be the "lack of influence" of the catholic catholic church in the Albanian and Bosnian areas.
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Post by leprofesional on Aug 10, 2012 20:07:58 GMT -5
I believe and maybe I'm wrong
it is because of Croatia was very well supported by Italy and Vatican and serbia was very well supported by Russia austrohungaria... you know hasburgers all where married for a serbian wife... just like ottoman pashas
so they could pay their taxes they married with ottomans so they got some extra benefits... less taxes etc and actually they they were no good for anything so it wasn't real in ottomans interest to make them Muslims
for example they had lot or almost everything thanks to Albanians so it was in ottomans interests to make them Muslims
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Post by ulf on Aug 11, 2012 9:44:15 GMT -5
I heard its because Islam people were privileged in Ottoman empire, so they didn't had to pay hefty taxes like Christians. Taxes at the time weren't paid in money/gold but more through the agricultural works. Also bey's and pasha's were given administrative authority over certain parts of land.
Its actually better question how didn't the Christians turned to Muslims?
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Post by ulf on Aug 11, 2012 9:59:10 GMT -5
I believe and maybe I'm wrong it is because of Croatia was very well supported by Italy and Vatican and serbia was very well supported by Russia austrohungaria... you know hasburgers all where married for a serbian wife... just like ottoman pashas so they could pay their taxes they married with ottomans so they got some extra benefits... less taxes etc and actually they they were no good for anything so it wasn't real in ottomans interest to make them Muslims for example they had lot or almost everything thanks to Albanians so it was in ottomans interests to make them Muslims Albascorp, that's very stupid and distorted view. 1) Serbia weren't backed up by Imperial Russia and Austrian monarchy. Last real Russian tsar died in 1598 and there was just one Russian-Turkish war in that period in Crimea as Turks aided Crimean tatars who lost the war. Austrians haven't ever fought on Serbian side, but other way. 2) Ottoman Sultans married more with slaves who were imported from north European area(Russia/Ukraine), thats why you can see many Sultans who had semi-Nordic look, like Suleiman the Magnificent
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Post by bowandarrow on Aug 11, 2012 15:57:44 GMT -5
Not everyone thought of themselves to be in the position to "covert and survive". Survival back then had many other aspects other than religion. The Albanians and Bosnians probably wanted to identify closer to the Ottomans, more-so than anyone else. Most of the time it was like that dude.
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Post by uz on Aug 11, 2012 16:14:43 GMT -5
Not everyone thought of themselves to be in the position to "covert and survive". Survival back then had many other aspects other than religion. The Albanians and Bosnians probably wanted to identify closer to the Ottomans, more-so than anyone else. Most of the time it was like that dude. lol, my thoughts exactly. Except for different peoples' different reactions and choices were made/occured. Its actually better question how didn't the Christians turned to Muslims? This is the better question.
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Post by valmir on Aug 11, 2012 17:27:00 GMT -5
I dont know why the Christians didn't converted into Muslims but i am sure it wasn't a question of bravery at that time.
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Post by uz on Aug 11, 2012 17:40:10 GMT -5
I dont know why the Christians didn't converted into Muslims but i am sure it wasn't a question of bravery at that time. Yea, that would totally baffle your mind.
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Post by Shqipni13 on Aug 11, 2012 18:40:06 GMT -5
Well if Bosnians are nothing more than Serb Muslims (according to many Serbs) a lot of Serbs gave in as well.
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Post by uz on Aug 11, 2012 18:45:51 GMT -5
Well if Bosnians are nothing more than Serb Muslims (according to many Serbs) a lot of Serbs gave in as well. Exactly. Tho "give-in" sounds a little harsh. Maybe many of the converts truly beleive the new-religion was more divine, thinking this was the power-drive behind such a Great Empire.
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Post by Shqipni13 on Aug 11, 2012 22:18:27 GMT -5
^I'll go out on a limb and speak for the conversions on the Albanian side. Albanians were a tribal people who didn't care for being told what to do. The Albanians already had their code of law in kanuni Leke Dukagjinit which superceded over the bible before conversions even started. So for them it was like "what the hell" lets convert we don't have to listen to anything coming from the Vatican." We pay less taxes this way as well. Another thing, and this is what an Albanian Orthodox friend mentioned to me, Islam helped preserve the Albanian ethnic identity. Maybe it was a way to distinguish themselves from their slavic neighbors and not intermingle so much when it came to marriage.
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Post by Shqipni13 on Aug 11, 2012 22:20:21 GMT -5
I don't think it had anything to do with divinity at tgat time Uz.
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Post by groet on Aug 12, 2012 6:43:52 GMT -5
The reason that some Christians didn't turn Muslim depends on the direction; Catholic or Orthodox. In the case of the former, they either kept their religion by virtue of living in the isolated mountains, like most Catholic Albanians and some Croats, the latter of which maintained their religion due to being further away from the Ottoman Empire's grip and closer to natural Catholic allies. The Orthodox Churches of the Balkans were however preferred over the Catholic Church. The Ottomans willingly let the Orthodox Churches be as they showed no loyalty to any specific Church entity - which was the opposite of the Catholic Churches, which all swore loyalty to the Vatican, and were merely extended arms of the Vatican. This meant that the Ottomans would let the Orthodox practice their faith without any nuisances. All of this is why you see that previously Catholic lands converted to a much larger extent than Orthodox lands. Furthermore, the Catholic Church, unlike the Orthodox Church, didn't set out to convert Muslims back to Christianity as soon as the Ottomans lost its grip; the Catholic Church never gained the power to do that in the Balkans in the first place. It was also through the Orthodox Church that these Orthodox nations extended their influence. There were initially not an Orthodox Albanian Church, meaning that the Orthodox Albanians were under the whims of the Patriarchate of Constantinople e.g. the Greek Orthodox Church.
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Post by leprofesional on Aug 12, 2012 12:43:13 GMT -5
there are many documents of serbians fought officialy for ottoman empire against serbs them self...
by the way serbs destroyed more than thousands mosques in serbia it self from ww1 to ww2 and further... only in beograde more than 20 destroyed...
so there exist an awkward thought of serbia who "resisted" islamization holding by serbian lies... and because Albanians orthodox Christians in Kosova resisted there is no serbia without Kosova...
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Post by ulf on Aug 12, 2012 17:34:19 GMT -5
there are many documents of serbians fought officialy for ottoman empire against serbs them self... This falls in that "rekla-kazala" category as we call it. If you provide just a single document... but there is none and a few million more Albanian Christians from Kosovo? hahahahaha... Was this after or before of Klingon assault on Ardan IV?
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Post by leprofesional on Aug 12, 2012 20:14:26 GMT -5
i'm sure some Osman brothers wont doubt to search Istanbul archive and post them here
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Post by ulf on Aug 12, 2012 20:33:09 GMT -5
i'm sure some Osman brothers wont doubt to search Istanbul archive and post them here Albascorp, you got some Osman relatives?
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