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Post by leprofesional on Aug 12, 2012 21:48:26 GMT -5
oh i see you don't know... due to serbian cruelty and colonization many albs had to find their homes in turkey...
smells like serb spirit
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 13, 2012 7:20:17 GMT -5
I would think the main reason is security. In the Ottoman Empire you can only legally own land if you're Muslim. Lots of Bosnian and Albanian nobles already held quite a bit of property but stood the risk of losing it to the invaders. Pledginig loyalty with religious unity ensured their property would stay in tact. This tradition of conversion spread from generation to generation. In the OE you can only legally inherit land from your father's estate if you're Muslim. Also in places like Bosnia after the Ottoman's invaded large properties were abandoned by fleeing Catholics. This land could only be bid on by Muslims unless granted special privilage to non-Muslims like the Orthodox Church. Also there was the Janassary Corps. Pair all these factors together and its not hard to see why the demographic changed.
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Post by leprofesional on Aug 13, 2012 7:26:13 GMT -5
I would think the main reason is security. In the Ottoman Empire you can only legally own land if you're Muslim. Lots of Bosnian and Albanian nobles already held quite a bit of property but stood the risk of losing it to the invaders. Pledginig loyalty with religious unity ensured their property would stay in tact. This tradition of conversion spread from generation to generation. In the OE you can only legally inherit land from your father's estate if you're Muslim. Also in places like Bosnia after the Ottoman's invaded large properties were abandoned by fleeing Catholics. This land could only be bid on by Muslims unless granted special privilage to non-Muslims like the Orthodox Church. Also there was the Janassary Corps. Pair all these factors together and its not hard to see why the demographic changed. true but without explaining why the others... didn't need security it doesn't make any sense
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 13, 2012 11:09:26 GMT -5
I would think the main reason is security. In the Ottoman Empire you can only legally own land if you're Muslim. Lots of Bosnian and Albanian nobles already held quite a bit of property but stood the risk of losing it to the invaders. Pledginig loyalty with religious unity ensured their property would stay in tact. This tradition of conversion spread from generation to generation. In the OE you can only legally inherit land from your father's estate if you're Muslim. Also in places like Bosnia after the Ottoman's invaded large properties were abandoned by fleeing Catholics. This land could only be bid on by Muslims unless granted special privilage to non-Muslims like the Orthodox Church. Also there was the Janassary Corps. Pair all these factors together and its not hard to see why the demographic changed. true but without explaining why the others... didn't need security it doesn't make any sense Oh that's easy. It's because only Catholic nations under the OE for a long period of time saw a radical shift in religious demographic. Before the Turks both Albania and Bosnia were mostly Catholic whereas all the other Christian nations under the Turks ( Serbs , Bulgarians , Greeks) were Orthodox and the Ottomans had a much better tolerance for the Orthodox over the Catholics. Orthodox had more rights than Catholic and their church was even allowed to collect taxes. The Orthodox had limited autonomy because the Orthodox patriarchs resided within the Ottoman Empire itself and could be directly controled. Catholics were associated with Rome and the Pope , the eternal enemy to the Ottomans and didn't fare as well as their Orthodox cousins. Its frankly amazing that any Catholic community still persisted in Muslim and Orthodox dominated territory in the Ottoman Balkans. The Catholics usually represent the oldest traditions and medieval connection in those regions as well. The rest of Croatia ( not counting Bosnia but Croatia proper) never firmly remained under Ottoman rule although they did succumb for about a century. After the Austrians captured Croatia north of the Sava there was a population shift of converted Croat Muslims with Catholics left in Bosnia so conversions did happen. Some coastal areas of Montenegro and Albania also , amazingly, remained Catholic as well even after repeated intrusions by both Orthodox and Muslim hostiles. TL;DR = The Orthodox countries under the Ottomans enjoyed limited autonomy and didn't have direct pressure to convert. Rules were a lot more relaxed on Orthodox Christians versus Catholic Christians hence the almost zero conversion of Orthodox Christians to Islam minus some of the Janassaries. Most of the Muslim converts were Catholics ( Bosnia and Albania both being majority Catholic states in medieval times). The Catholic nations that avoided mass Islamic conversions were those that only fell to the Ottomans for about a century but were regained by newly emergant European Catholic powers such as the Hapsburgs and older ones like Venice. Napolean even played a small but significant role later on.
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Post by leprofesional on Aug 13, 2012 11:25:52 GMT -5
so you agree with this I believe and maybe I'm wrong it is because of Croatia was very well supported by Italy and Vatican and serbia was very well supported by Russia austrohungaria... you know hasburgers all where married for a serbian wife... just like ottoman pashas so they could pay their taxes they married with ottomans so they got some extra benefits... less taxes etc and actually they they were no good for anything so it wasn't real in ottomans interest to make them Muslims for example they had lot or almost everything thanks to Albanians so it was in ottomans interests to make them Muslims
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Post by Skroz on Aug 28, 2012 9:52:18 GMT -5
Most Christian in the Balkans were Orthodox and their churches had more power and influence over their followers (since the Ottomans gave churches autonomy). Most Bosniaks come from the Bosnian Church, which had little power and influence anyway, so Bosnians converted.
Also, it was a slow process. Most people think that it was pretty much Bosniaks out of the Slavs that converted en mass, but there are Bosniaks that are actually just assimilated Croats, Serbs, Albanians, etc. I don't think it's known what majority of Bosniak's ancestors view themselves at, IMO they probably regarded themselves mostly as Latin (catholic) or Bošnjanin.
I know that on my mother's side, who is form Bosanska Krajina, most of the people there are assimilated Croats. And on my father's side I have one ancestor that was a Serb that started my surname.
Also, Ottomans didn't enforce Islam, they just made it more appealing.
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Post by Skroz on Aug 28, 2012 9:55:34 GMT -5
I would think the main reason is security. In the Ottoman Empire you can only legally own land if you're Muslim. Lots of Bosnian and Albanian nobles already held quite a bit of property but stood the risk of losing it to the invaders. Pledginig loyalty with religious unity ensured their property would stay in tact. This tradition of conversion spread from generation to generation. In the OE you can only legally inherit land from your father's estate if you're Muslim. Also in places like Bosnia after the Ottoman's invaded large properties were abandoned by fleeing Catholics. This land could only be bid on by Muslims unless granted special privilage to non-Muslims like the Orthodox Church. I heard Orthodox Christians could own land if they agreed to relocate to border regions to defend the Ottoman Empire's borders.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 28, 2012 10:25:02 GMT -5
You're wrong on two fronts here, friend. I'll give you more of the Balkans was nominally Orthodox but before Ottoman rule Catholicism was much more prevealant than today. Most of the Albanians AND Bosnians were Catholic. Which is why you are wrong that 'most Bosniaks come from the Bosnian Church.' This is a myth propagated by modern day Bosniak scholars to further distance themselves from either Croats or Serbs. I understand why they accept the myth - remember the 'Bogomil' myth in Bosnia that so many Bosniaks ( and Croats and Serbs) bought into so much? It's now known that most of Bosnia was still Catholic with the Bosnian Church sect being only real popular around the very center of Bosnia. The Bosnian Church was a Catholic sect as well but considered heretical by the Vatican. Most of the Bosnian nobililty converted first , the vast majority of the nobility was Catholic. Given these were Feudal times , the peasants under these nobles eventually converted as well who were mostly Catholic.
Bosniaks are by and large assimilated Slavs. They are of the same nation as medieval Croats and Serbs. I don't care to call Bosniaks 'Croats' or 'Serbs.' You guys are your own thing now and have been for a while and I respect that. Just slow your roll when you try to deny Croats and Serbs their own identity in Bosnia as well. Fair enough?
If I were to make a educated guess as most objective historians I would say that Bosniaks are nominally the same nation as Croats. Bosniak or Croat , they share the same medieval legacy. That being said Bosnia developed as an independant or semi-independant nation for centuries - even more free than Croatia or Serbia. The Turks did enforce Islam and religious laws but Turks didn't directly rule Bosnia, Bosnia was ruled internally from its own people. There was no forced rapes like there were in Serbia, not even on the hated Catholics. The Bosnians ruled their own.
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Post by valmir on Aug 28, 2012 11:17:38 GMT -5
Orthodox Albanians in the churches of Decan.
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Post by rex362 on Oct 5, 2012 17:26:46 GMT -5
In the case of Albanians .....neither Catholicism or Orthodoxy worked for us even before anything Muslim even came about .We as Albanians with all the invaders didn't really grasp anything Christian 100% anyways ,who had time for that ? Just from Paganism to Christianity we lost much of our people and then saw others coming into our lands and more killings and loss of our people ...mind you we have lost 1/2 our populations maybe 3-4 times historically. So survival instincts kicked in and its each family/clans for themselves So for the sake of survival upon our own lands and with hardly any rape of our mothers,daughters and sisters we would become Buddhist or Hari Krishna's if need be . FACT ! And in a great way it was good that the majority took a religion that would contain friction then and still to this day with all our surrounding non Albanians neighbors ....otherwise we would not be here as we are Albanians today -Amin- Amen - and Aman My fathers before me spoke Albanian I speak Albanian my son speaks Albanian and his will also .....otherwise I would be speaking slavic or greek
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Post by rex362 on Oct 5, 2012 17:39:09 GMT -5
In the case of the Albanians and Bosnian becoming Muslim ?? well lets just say we had common haters up there in Kosova in a war during the 1300's and somebody in name wanted to bastardize us in name ..they wanted to make "Kopils " of us bcs of gutting a strong leader of theirs .. just proof of who was on the fields in Kosova ps if the turks wanted to make Muslims of whole Balkans that was no problem ...we would all be reading from same Koran
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Post by rex362 on Oct 5, 2012 17:45:29 GMT -5
And Croatian Vanguard makes some very good points here
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Post by uz on Oct 5, 2012 17:59:07 GMT -5
Islam made your lives easier under ottoman rule, it's as simple as that.
I'm not critisizing your people for it - you do what you do for survival. But don't ignore it.
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Post by rex362 on Oct 5, 2012 18:06:56 GMT -5
it made it easy for you also ...vasal-ism and vandalism up the wahzoo for you guys even the greeks had it good.
like I keep saying always ....fountains,roads and bridges for you guys and Mosques and prisons for us Albanians
we had many skirmishes with them ...no worries we didn't abide as you might think
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Post by uz on Oct 5, 2012 18:35:55 GMT -5
You should think about that for a moment.... Serbs didn't convert yet according to you were the favorites of the Ottomans....
albs converted en mass and (again) according to you... were treated the most like shit.
so....
...
what does this say about the albs in particular?
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Post by branislavnusic on Sept 29, 2018 6:15:55 GMT -5
Albs chose islam for their benefit, simple as.
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Post by rex362 on Sept 29, 2018 11:08:40 GMT -5
they converted us as punishment /ridicule ..again ottomans did not worry about spreading Islam only empire & taxation
if we had it good ..today both of you and all of greece would be reading Albanian
books and mosque on Friday together
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Post by Pyrros on Sept 29, 2018 11:10:45 GMT -5
this is contradiction in terms. Mutual exclusion.
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Post by branislavnusic on Sept 29, 2018 11:44:43 GMT -5
they converted us as punishment /ridicule ..again ottomans did not worry about spreading Islam only empire & taxation
if we had it good ..today both of you and all of greece would be reading Albanian
books and mosque on Friday together Ottomans never forcefully converted. you had it off good bcs ottomans allowed you to settle Kosovo and Macedonia to kill of Serbs.
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Post by rex362 on Sept 29, 2018 11:52:13 GMT -5
they converted us as punishment /ridicule ..again ottomans did not worry about spreading Islam only empire & taxation
if we had it good ..today both of you and all of greece would be reading Albanian
books and mosque on Friday together Ottomans never forcefully converted. you had it off good bcs ottomans allowed you to settle Kosovo and Macedonia to kill of Serbs.
no ..was the opposite ....while the men were off in ottoman army or jails or hiding in mountains rebelling against the turks .....slavs took up the slack in towns and the fields as workers and thus eventually settling there
also remember albs whether Christian of Moslem were in constant rebellion against turks ..some wins but mostly losses
like whole villages wiped out and then replaced with slavs .....
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