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Post by terroreign on Feb 5, 2008 0:52:03 GMT -5
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Post by terroreign on Feb 5, 2008 21:26:47 GMT -5
Any thoughts on this, the Montenegrin language is the true official language in Montenegro
And now the serbs are demanding translators and cannot understand the latin script!!
XD The idiocy of the serbian parties is tremendous
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Feb 5, 2008 21:39:38 GMT -5
Any thoughts on this, the Montenegrin language is the true official language in Montenegro And now the serbs are demanding translators and cannot understand the latin script!! XD The idiocy of the serbian parties is tremendous If the official language (Montenegrin) is diifferent from their mother tounge (Serbian) they have a right to ask for translation. Or there is no difference? And Njegos and all of Petrovic family were using cyrillics. Since when is the Latin writting official in Montenegro? Before or after Knjaz Milo? It is obvious that Milo is struggling to make anything different from Serbian such as: flag (colours), language, nation, using Latin letters instead of cyrillics........
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Post by terroreign on Feb 5, 2008 22:01:35 GMT -5
Cyrillic was only used in Montenegro AFTER the Nemanjic's conquered Duklja.
Duklja used latin script.
And yes the official language of Montenegro is different, but just as different as Croatian is, so really no translation should be necessary, its just they are stubborn chetniks!
Milo didnt do anything to change Montenegro, the people did, he just supported their will.
It is funny you serbs always just resort to blaming everything on Milo.
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Post by radovic on Feb 5, 2008 23:37:49 GMT -5
Cyrillic was only used in Montenegro AFTER the Nemanjic's conquered Duklja. Wrong. Coastal areas spoke venetic and hence used latin. Non-coastal areas used cyrillic. Actually. If Montenegrin is a seperate language then they are obliged by the constitution as well as by European norms to translate any document into minority languages (including Serb, Bosnian, Croatia) whether or not a minority asks for it. It's funny, but your Milo doesn't care for Montenegrins. He only cares for himself and his interests. He only cares to stay in power. And he looks to blame others for anything wrong in Montenegro.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 6, 2008 1:52:23 GMT -5
Just, wrong, you make a fool out of yourself once again.
I believe its more funny that you speak like you have some personal relationship with Milo.
P.S. the majority of Humans can be said to only care for themselves and their interests, its a part of human nature.
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Post by radovic on Feb 6, 2008 9:51:20 GMT -5
Actually. It's true. In coastal areas of Montenegro (just like in Dalmatia) Venetic and other Italic languages/dialects were more frequent then Slavic languages.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 6, 2008 15:30:56 GMT -5
Actually not true, because the venetians didnt exist in Montenegro during the 1000's AD
The majority language on the coast of Duklja was slavic, the Towns of Kotor, Risan, Bar and Budva were slavic speaking.
So were the other Doclean towns, Ribnica, Onogost and Skadar, and they all used the latin script, major religion(and of the royalty) being catholic.
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Post by radovic on Feb 6, 2008 20:10:19 GMT -5
Actually not true, because the venetians didnt exist in Montenegro during the 1000's AD You don't know what Venetic is. Venetic does not refer to the dialect in Venice. Venetic refers to all the Italian dialects that were spoken in the Veneto, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Istria, Dalmatia and the Montenegrin coast. And in the 1000's Venice had influence over all eastern Adriatic region and were present in the regions. also. Terroreign. Since the 900s Venice had control of areas of southern Dalmatia (especially in Boka, since it is geographically southern Dalmatia). If that is true then why are they called Cattaro, Risano, Antivari and Budua in the era. And not by their slavic names. Ribnica was not Catholic. Neither was onognost. Scutari was. That is because they were Venetian incluenced.
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Feb 6, 2008 20:27:40 GMT -5
onognost and ribnica were inside the ancient borders of the first duklja state. all areas of duklja at the time of duklja before nemanja, were christians of the latin-rite, whether on the coast or in the interior
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Post by radovic on Feb 6, 2008 22:16:28 GMT -5
onognost and ribnica were inside the ancient borders of the first duklja state. all areas of duklja at the time of duklja before nemanja, were christians of the latin-rite, whether on the coast or in the interior No. The latin-rite had influence in Coastal areas. The rest of Montenegro was under Byzantine jurisdiction.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 7, 2008 2:42:26 GMT -5
"In 1190, Nemanja's son Vukan, the first time mentioned Regent of Doclea, asserted the Doclean King crown ('Kraljevstva od isprva'). He converted to Catholicism in order to be accepted by Doclea's feudal lords" (D.Zivkovic, ibid.)
Obviously Catholicism was the norm in Duklja.
"In the tide of destruction Nemanja also had destroyed 'monuments of Latin literacy by burning local churches and books." (Rovinski, Crna Gora u proslosti i sadasnjosti, Cetinje, 1993, p.279).
And Latin was the alphabet used in Doclea, Nemanja brought the Cirilic scipt into Montenegro.
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tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
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Post by tyson on Feb 7, 2008 8:51:10 GMT -5
onognost and ribnica were inside the ancient borders of the first duklja state. all areas of duklja at the time of duklja before nemanja, were christians of the latin-rite, whether on the coast or in the interior No. The latin-rite had influence in Coastal areas. The rest of Montenegro was under Byzantine jurisdiction. lets not even mention montenegro, because duklja is what we are specifying. all areas within the historical teritory of duklja was christian of the latin-rite. duklja was independant of byzantium. i'm pretty sure it had to pay some type of homage to it, but other than that it was independant. even though duklja like the kingdom of croatia formed on byzantine land, they both accepted christianity from rome, therefore they were of the latin-rite. also look at albania,.... the northern half of albania were all catholic before ottoman invasion. all the way inland of northern albania were catholic, and not just around skadar. now if to your theory that christianity of the latin-rite was only found along the immediate coastal area of southern part of the eastern adriatic, then how can albanians who live even more south than montenegrins be all originally catholic in the northern half of albania before ottoman invasion?..... at that time albania was under direct byzantine rule, but still the albanians in the north were christians of the latin-rite,..... so if northern albanians under direct byzantine rule were all christians of the latin-rite then why do come to the conclusion that an independant duklja north of the albanians were mainly of the greek-rite besides the coastal fringes?... thats absolute garbage, thats why. you cant say it is so, and pass it off as a fact when historical records thwart your claim. all historical records point to the populace of duklja being christians of the latin-rite, aswell as the ruling class of duklja.
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Post by radovic on Feb 7, 2008 10:12:09 GMT -5
"In 1190, Nemanja's son Vukan, the first time mentioned Regent of Doclea, asserted the Doclean King crown ('Kraljevstva od isprva'). He converted to Catholicism in order to be accepted by Doclea's feudal lords" (D.Zivkovic, ibid.) Obviously Catholicism was the norm in Duklja. First of all. That only says that it was the norm among the lords. By your logic I shoukld be saying Serbs were Catholic since most of lords & Stefan Nemanja were Catholic -- the Nemanjic converted to Orthodoxy after Sava did. He converted to Orthodoxy after he tok over Montenegro.
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Post by radovic on Feb 7, 2008 10:17:21 GMT -5
No. The latin-rite had influence in Coastal areas. The rest of Montenegro was under Byzantine jurisdiction. lets not even mention montenegro, because duklja is what we are specifying. all areas within the historical teritory of duklja was christian of the latin-rite. duklja was independant of byzantium. i'm pretty sure it had to pay some type of homage to it, but other than that it was independant. even though duklja like the kingdom of croatia formed on byzantine land, they both accepted christianity from rome, therefore they were of the latin-rite. Croatia was nver part of Byzantium. If you look the way the Roman empire was divided Croatia and Bosnia and Coastal Montenegro were western. The rest, including the rest of Montenegro, were Byzantine. Simple. After the split, the two centers of Christianity tried to spread their influence. That is why Orthodoxy was present for a long time in areas that are now Catholic such as Southern Italy, Emilia-Romagna and Southern Spain. But Montenegro was Orthodox, except the Coastal areas. By the time the Ottomans invade. Albania had not been under direct byzantine control. Since the 11th century, Byzantium lost direct control. In the 12th century during the crusades when Bhyzantium was growing ever weaker did sequiece to Roman rule.
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Post by terroreign on Feb 7, 2008 13:31:23 GMT -5
"In 1190, Nemanja's son Vukan, the first time mentioned Regent of Doclea, asserted the Doclean King crown ('Kraljevstva od isprva'). He converted to Catholicism in order to be accepted by Doclea's feudal lords" (D.Zivkovic, ibid.) Obviously Catholicism was the norm in Duklja. First of all. That only says that it was the norm among the lords. By your logic I shoukld be saying Serbs were Catholic since most of lords & Stefan Nemanja were Catholic -- the Nemanjic converted to Orthodoxy after Sava did. He converted to Orthodoxy after he tok over Montenegro. No serb lords were catholic, Nemanja was born a catholic because his father ran away from raska to Duklja, converting to catholism, and Nemanja was born in Duklja, later converting to Orthodoxy. All slavs in Duklja were Catholics, tons of proof to show this and the whole intellectual community is aware of this. "Quote: also look at albania,.... the northern half of albania were all catholic before ottoman invasion. all the way inland of northern albania were catholic, and not just around skadar. now if to your theory that christianity of the latin-rite was only found along the immediate coastal area of southern part of the eastern adriatic, then how can albanians who live even more south than montenegrins be all originally catholic in the northern half of albania before ottoman invasion?..... Simple. After the split, the two centers of Christianity tried to spread their influence. That is why Orthodoxy was present for a long time in areas that are now Catholic such as Southern Italy, Emilia-Romagna and Southern Spain. But Montenegro was Orthodox, except the Coastal areas." Tyson defeats you using mere logic radovic, you will not win this one.
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Post by c0gnate on Feb 7, 2008 13:40:51 GMT -5
Terroreign, why is Boka Kotorska so named?
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Post by radovic on Feb 7, 2008 13:52:46 GMT -5
His father was Catholic before he went to Duklja. After Sava converted, his father converted. Before that he wore a crown from Rome.
where is all this tons you speak of?
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Post by terroreign on Feb 7, 2008 14:14:41 GMT -5
His father was in fact not catholic but converted, just like NEMANJA'S son did when he was put in as the ruler of the annexed Duklja.
Proof? me = 2 quotes, you = 0
Let's see here:
Duklja became independent of Byzantine in 1041, the Docleans being Christians of the latin-rite before then, as well as being the first slavs to be christened in the Balkans.
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Post by radovic on Feb 7, 2008 14:22:37 GMT -5
His father was in fact not catholic but converted, just like NEMANJA'S son did when he was put in as the ruler of the annexed Duklja. Proof? me = 2 quotes, you = 0 Let's see here: First of all. The first Nemanjic to be Orthodox, was sava. from the great schism to 1192, their was no Orthodox Nemanjic until Rastko became Sava. The crown that the Nemanjic's used was from the Pope. Not from Byzantium. Duklja became independent. It's rulers (like in serb areas) were Catholic. the population was not. so here's a quote for you: This period was useful for Duklja. While its eastern borders were used as a demarcational zone between the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch, the rulers of Duklja used the Latin side to gain independence from the Byzantine, but enforced Eastern-rite and schismatic Orthodoxy so as not to be controlled by the Catholic west. Throughout the 11th century Doclea's population were classified as being Serbs
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