viktor1
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Post by viktor1 on Nov 18, 2007 6:43:01 GMT -5
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^^^ Why can't u see, the truth is allways denied in this world...And u r one of them...U can delete whole members posts, but u can't edit the truth.!.
I'm so suprised how slavs have enemies, and end of the wars they became best friends..anyway in the end they have to make a peace, cuz they r all from russia...u croats too!!!
YES, we have had and still have problems wit our stupid politicans...But what has Enver Hoxha to do wit loyalty in friendship, if u can call it in that way....
I see that u just talkins some bullnutst, u don't even listen to ur self...i can't help u wit that problem....i see one thing too: U r quote near stoneage with ur historical informations..!!!
U can delete my posts...i'm cool wit that...it's ur choice....but when it come to be REAL,,,don't say anything OK Cuz u r so fcuking far away!!!
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 19, 2007 9:36:06 GMT -5
See how you state you know so much about Europe Mimi, but then you say that in Europe people don't judge you by what you are, rather by your character. In that one you're wrong. Most of Western Europe isn't very Secular in their decisions or laws. I never said that EUROPE hates you. I said select nations do. I never said the entirety of Europe does. You have misread my post, and should refer back to it, and see what I really said. See, it's ok for Albanians to catagorize Slavs as one nation (which we are not, as you can see with your very own eyes, at least I think you are as smart as that), but it's not ok for anyone thats not Serb, to let Kosovo get Independence. I for one think that Kosovo will stay, and won't get independence. That is my opinion, and you, nor your immature name calling, provoking, and catagorization of Slavic people, will change my opinion. If you were any better to others, and didn't change your loyalty every 5 mintues, than maybe I'd be more sympathetic towards your views. Think about that one for a second. = You smell hypocrite. Dude, has Kosovo been a nation, ever? Independant? Has it had a republic status inside SRFY? Has it ever occured to you that Croatia has a very long history as an autonomus Kingdom, within an Empire in the AHE. Maybe you aren't as smart as I had hoped you would be, women usually are. But you know what I won't generalize here as all women are different. Something that pops out at me is the sheer attempt at provocation. But do you know what I "smell" here, in your post? A lot of bullsh it. Onto you Viki... One thing. I deleted your post, the first I've EVER had to delete, because you called someone a "b itch". Your post had absolutely NOTHING important. Also, I don't edit your post of you saying Albanians were persecuted. That's a truth, and I didn't edit/delete it, did I? Good for you buddy. I see that Albanian Extremist propaganda has given you quite the education about history and migration. I applaud you for that. Enver Hoxha was a loser polititian and he always will be in my books. He isolated the Albanian people, and made you poor, and gave you a failing economy and a failing political system. It is because of him that you people got next to nothing now. He could have gone to the west for Aid and joined NATO, but he didn't. He could have joined Yugoslavia in the early 50's, when Tito offered it, so that he could have united Albania with Kosovo, but he didn't. He could have made Albanias Economic laws a little more liberal, so that the people could enjoy their freedom of household economic growth, and GDP Per Capita growth, but he didn't. He did everything wrong, and for that, if he was alive, I think I'd kill him, let alone any Albanian. I'm talking bullsh it? And yet you claim that Croats are from Russia? Please rethink your position on who is talking smack. You can be surprised on what your conclusion might end up as. I'm far away? Maybe in the twilight zone, because kid, you have no idea what real is.
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tyson
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Post by tyson on Nov 19, 2007 21:56:37 GMT -5
viktor1....
just because the war is over, doesnt mean that we made friendship with the serbs again you fool.
i cant speak for every single croat, but it would be safe to say that majority do not want any kind of friendship with serbian nation,... we just want to be left alone and go our own way and serbs go theirs.
now, the croatian government is not taking the serb side in the kosovo issue at all. it is only being neutral, but unfortunately with primitive people like yourself, you want us to take sides in this issue, when we couldnt really care less about kosovo.
albanians in general dont give a rats ass for croatia, so why should croatians show any interest in kosovo? its not our war.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 19, 2007 22:27:06 GMT -5
^ Had to edit the name calling, but I agree with you 100% to the dot.
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Post by vinjak on Nov 20, 2007 20:40:44 GMT -5
but it would be safe to say that majority do not want any kind of friendship with serbian nation,... we just want to be left alone and go our own way and serbs go theirs.
The same can be said for the Serbs no friendship with the Croat nation. What is needed though is a level of respect, and the governments do need to have diplomatic relations but that is it. The only thing Albanians had in common with the Croats is the Wars with Serbs, Kosovo is a Serbian problem and it should be solved once and for all by Serbia that would ensure (after some turbulence) that the Albanian problem in Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro would be silenced forever.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 20, 2007 20:45:04 GMT -5
The Governments/People of Serbia and Croatia should have a neutral but positive view towards eachothers actions. A Strategic Defence Initiative or an Alliance is too soon for now. A generation needs to grow up and learn from the former generations mistakes, then we can work together, for the future, to benefit all people.
Due to the wars in the 1990's and all the propaganda that was flushed out during this time period really put a thorn in the diplomatic relations paws.
BTW, Albanians ain't the problem, its the extremists that are the problem.
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Post by tripwire on Nov 21, 2007 2:12:53 GMT -5
"me and my stupid nation, are more respected than every Albanian in the world put together."
You betcha Croatia is. Especially by Neo Nazis and Skinheads worldwide. No other nation on earth could carry out the final solution on Yugoslav Jews, Gypsies, Serbs etc..as Croatia did and that puts Croatia on top of every living nazi's list of obediant little Eichmanns.
"Croatia has a very long history as an autonomus Kingdom, within an Empire in the AHE"
lolol..what happened to independent sovereign...kingdom of ... so much for your history. It's as inspiring as Togo's history. lolol
"albanians in general dont give a rats ass for croatia,"
100% true.
" so why should croatians show any interest in kosovo? its not our war."
Who asked you? It's the topic of some Croat ambassador who thinks he can influence either party and topic of this thread. lolol
"The only thing Albanians had in common with the Croats is the Wars with Serbs, Kosovo is a Serbian problem and it should be solved once and for all by Serbia that would ensure (after some turbulence) that the Albanian problem in Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro would be silenced forever. "
How does Serbia propose to silence the Albanians forever? The same way Serbia silenced 8000 Bosnian men and boys of Srebrenica? If anybody was silenced after Srebrenica, it was Serbia. Forever looking for their b@ll$, losing them on the way to reburying and covering up the remains of 8000 men and boys of Srebrenica. Funny how victims NEVER fail to lose their voice. They still talk to the living from beyond their graves. Showing us who and how and where and when they were murdered by Mladic and his imprisoned thugs, who don't have the slightest intelligence bec. they talked more against their own leaders, than those dead victims. Don't be surprised if Serbia finally shut themselves up for good if they try their criminal methods again on people who don't want any part of their sick mentality, methods and criminal history.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 21, 2007 14:03:42 GMT -5
Funny thing is that you bring up things from the past. Why so is that? Can't you find modern dirt to dig up? BTW, if I distinctly remember, Albania had a puppet government installed by Hitlers orders. They murdered Serbs in Kosovo, and Jews, Gypsies, etc. etc.
So your argument is contradictory at best, and not very thought out to say the least.
What's so "lolol" about that? At least Austria-Hungary treated us as equals in the Empire and invested money in us, unlike the Ottoman Empire did to Albania.
BTW, Pre-Colonial Togo has a very interesting history. Maybe you should grab a book and start reading. A question.. Why bring up Togo? Couldn't you stick to Europe?
Goes both ways.
It's a free forum and he has the right to express his opinion. If you want to infringe on peoples rights and take their rights away, become the next Enver Hoxha, or just shut your face dude.
Dude, like you said, you're Albanian. Why should you give a shit about a couple of thousand slavs that died. After all, it wasn't your war now, was it?
You are too contradictory. You are clouded by so much hate, you don't know which side to pick. If you hate the Serbs that much, be a man, take your balls out of your purse, and go pick up a gun and join the ANA.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 21, 2007 15:11:37 GMT -5
Vinjak wrote;
Kosova is a conflict between Albanians and Serbs, and since we cannot see eye to eye, a neutral (third or more) part/s are needed.
Let me guess; the finalization of a century long ambition, i.e. ethnically cleansing all Albanians from Kosova and replacing them with Serbian colonists? That's the only way you can 'silence' the problem. That or independence/unity with Albania.
Obviously, the first part isn't an option. And the latter is a matter of time, not 'if'.
MiG wrote;
Just as in almost all Nazi occupied countries. The Ustashe movement predated Nazi arrival, however. But I do not know if their initial ideology was fascist, or just a liberation movement. Perhaps the policies applied by Pavelic wasn't their initial motive. I am not an expert on the Ustasha.
This begs for a three part answe:
1) The Serbs suffered the least casualties in Kosova in what was SFRY. This is quite interesting, taking into consideration that the Albanians were the most opressed and persecuted ethnic minority in Yugoslavia 1918-39, having been exposed to massacres, expulsions and confiscation of lands distributed to Serb settlers. We had little civic rights; we had no schools in our language. I doubt these issues existed among you Croats. If anything, one would have expected exterminatory politics to have been carried out by us, since we were the most exposed to Serbian nationalism.
Yet despite this, as mentioned, Kosova was where the least Serb casualties were suffered. To take a Croatian source (Zerjavic), some 3,000 Serbs were killed in Kosova during the whole war period. Compare that to Zerjavic's estimate of killed Serbs in Croatia, namely 131,000 souls. Even Serbian scholar Kocovic estimates Kosovar Serb casualties at 4,000 souls, most probably killed in combat.
2) The Jewish community of Albania remained intact throughout the whole WWI. Not a single Jew was handed over to Nazi officials. Non-domestic Jews were likewise hosted by individuals and noble families. However, in Kosova, the Kosovar Albanians did round up some 281 Jews, of whom 200 would die in Belsen. Altogether, 210 Kosovar Jews of a total 551 died. However, whether in numbers or percentage, it cannot measure with Jewish casualties in Serbia or Croatia at the hands of Nazi collaborators.
3) I have never heard of a persecution of Gypsies in Albania during WWII. I sincerely haven't. Maybe the neglect of this poor minority is a reason. Or maybe it did not happen.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 21, 2007 15:42:04 GMT -5
They were fascists, and they planned the execution of K. Aleksandar in Paris with IMRO. IMRO Executed it. They wanted a free Kingdom of Croatia/Bosnia.
Actually it was everyone that got exposed to it. Thats why in 1939, Croat polititians got an autonomus Croatian Banovina. If the Ustase didn't take power, and the Royalists were left in power, Croatia would have never been in the 2nd Yugoslavia. (Read up on Stjepan Radic and his assassination in Parliament)
Albanians were the ones that were extreme on the Serbs in the 1941-1945 period, as you said, obviously it was expected, as other nationalities did it.
The death of 131,000 Serbs is not a very true figure. If that were true, there wouldn't be a very big Serbian pressence there as there was in 1991. 47,000 at best.
You mean WWII. Anyway, you are right about the jews. The Government of Albania was very protective of their jews. I've read a lot on this, but still even though through of all the efforts, families were still found by the German Secret police in early 1944 with their retreat.
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Post by vinjak on Nov 21, 2007 19:24:29 GMT -5
Let me guess; the finalization of a century long ambition, i.e. ethnically cleansing all Albanians from Kosova and replacing them with Serbian colonists?
Wrong, Donnie you should know me by now (not in person but in my thinking on Kosovo)
The finalization of a century long ambition would be solved like this,
1. disbandment of all extremist orginisations 2. forcing the Autonomy model that Beograd has offered 3. allowing foriegn forces to implement law and order
thats it, and as I mentioned in my previous post there would be some turbulence, but that would be overcome in time.
Once extremists realize there is not a chance violence would change the situation they would melt away also.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 22, 2007 6:16:11 GMT -5
MiG
I think everything would have been better also if Vladko Macek would have accepted Nazi offers to be the head of the puppet government of NDH. He didn't share Pavelic's sick ideas, nor was he an extremist. He also opposed the Tripartite Pact signed by King Pavle, showing that he was not a fervent supporter of fascism and Hitler. But Macek probably saw it as immoral to be a puppet of Hitler, and so he finally even ended in Jasenovac.
If we were 'extreme', then what words can we use to adequately describe you Croats during WWII? Did you read anything I wrote? I said that if anything, the biggest bloodshed was to be expected in Kosova, since that's where most opression and persecution went on during the interwar period. Yet precisely the opposite happened; Serbs suffered the least casualties in Kosova. 3-4,000 during the whole World War Two is minimal in comparison to Serbian casualties elsewhere, be it Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Serbia itself. Many of these casualties were also the result of fights between Balli Kombëtar (National Front -- our equivalent of Serbian Chetniks and perhaps your Domobrani) and the Chetniks of Draza Mihajlovic, who continuously sought to invade and establish control in Kosova unsuccessfully.
Well, that's your Croat scholar mentioning that figure -- not my estimates. If you ask me, I do believe that Serbian revisionists have falsified their numbers of casualties so as to win political points and sympathy in the West. It served as evidence for their allegedly anti-fascist conviction. Nevertheless, if 131,000 is an exaggeration, then so is probably the figure of 3-4,000 killed Serbs in Kosova, a figure repeated by both Croats and Serbs. In either case, it shows that Kosova was where the least Serbian sufferings occured, and that's to our honour if anything.
Just one Jew died as I am aware in Albania during those days. And he died fighting as a soldier in a Partisan unit. And it wasn't so much our government as it was regular people and ordinary families who saved the Jews, though granted specific officials did do their share too, granting false passports and false IDs to Jewish refugees. In either case, Albania was unique in the sense that it had more Jews after WWII than it had prior to the war.
Vinjak
What you propose is a 'solution' that's already been implemented. You're underestimating the width of the problem and the depth of the wounds. Too much has happened for us to ever accept Belgrade rule ever again. Even among the most liberal and anti-violent Albanians, you'll find a will of iron to seceede from Serbia once and for all. Whereas among Serbs, you can find rather oftenly people who are indifferent to the issue, or even see Kosova as a mere burden asa opposed to some 'spiritual cradle'. You even have established politicians such as Cedomir Jovanovic advocating a different policy towards Kosova, namely granting it independence. You won't find that among us.
The only way to settle the issue once and for all is independence. Perhaps there will be some unrest, some attacks carried out by the Tzar Lazar Guard. But they will be delt with accordingly. And Serbia will be compensated somehow by the International Community, even though I am of the opinion that you're not in position of being rewarded for stealing land and butchering civilians indiscriminately. Quite the contrary, Serbia should be convicted for its crimes and forced to pay for the damages caused during the war.
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Post by tripwire on Nov 22, 2007 12:37:21 GMT -5
"Funny thing is that you bring up things from the past. "
Past usually is one part determinant of predictable future behavior. AND..
"Why so is that? Can't you find modern dirt to dig up?"
Yes, you see them in Hague cells now.
"BTW, if I distinctly remember, Albania had a puppet government installed by Hitlers orders. They murdered Serbs in Kosovo, and Jews, Gypsies, etc. etc. "
Even if this were true, neither Albania or Kosova showed any evidence (post war) of the scale of premeditated murders as Croatia showed in Jasenovacs. Admit it, Jasenovacs will always be a reminder to ALL minorities residing in Croatia and int'l Jewish investors that their kind were slaughtered en masse for the sake of being who they were.. I guess this is why you post from outside of Croatia, and why Croats and Serb and Bosnians all understand each other...you speak Serbia's mother tongue.
"So your argument is contradictory at best, and not very thought out to say the least."
Really, so explain why Croatia was embargoed in 91, as the rest of yugo? Why EU made Croatia give up its ethnic heroes before even being allowed to join talks for eu membership..lol? Oh yeh, Croatia is respected all right. The same way Croatia respected Jews and Gypsies. This is how Croatia is treated by EU.
"At least Austria-Hungary treated us as equals in the Empire and invested money in us, unlike the Ottoman Empire did to Albania. "
LOL...being called an autonomous provincial kingdom is what? Better than being called a slave state of Aus Hun? lolol So, the Kaisers let Croatia have a few uncle toms who whipped their rank and file into shape and invested in Croatia so they could be the fodder for their front line wars against the Serbs/Russians. What Russians used Serbs for too. lolol As for the "Ottoman" empire, who do you think ran this thing for these Seljuk Asiatic Mongols? Do you actually think it would've lasted as long as it did without the primacy of the Albanians. For heavens sake, Albanians ran several empires before the Asians came. They needed lessons from us on how to keep what they got. lolol
"BTW, Pre-Colonial Togo has a very interesting history. Maybe you should grab a book and start reading. A question.. Why bring up Togo? Couldn't you stick to Europe? "
Nope, Cause every nation and national group in Europe had more inspiring events and people that sprinkled throughout their history. As for Togo, their history is interesting, not inspiring. You need to hone your skills in English reading comprehension.
Quote: " so why should croatians show any interest in kosovo? its not our war."
Who asked you? It's the topic of some Croat ambassador who thinks he can influence either party and topic of this thread. lolol
"It's a free forum and he has the right to express his opinion. If you want to infringe on peoples rights and take their rights away, become the next Enver Hoxha, or just shut your face dude."
I didn't insult his right to voice his opinion, just his inability to understand what this thread was about and its initial article. Again, you need some serious coaching in reading if you want to make it in the English speaking world.
"Dude, like you said, you're Albanian. Why should you give a shit about a couple of thousand slavs that died. After all, it wasn't your war now, was it?"
Kosova kicked the door open for what ensued after 89. Understanding how Serbs treated their own kind gave us tips on how to prepare for the eventual 99 war with them.
"You are too contradictory. You are clouded by so much hate, you don't know which side to pick. If you hate the Serbs that much, be a man, take your balls out of your purse, and go pick up a gun and join the ANA. "
It's a better job talking and promoting Kosova's cause in the English speaking world than fighting Serbs with a gun. Remember, most wars are won before the first bullet leaves its chamber.
"The death of 131,000 Serbs is not a very true figure. If that were true, there wouldn't be a very big Serbian pressence there as there was in 1991. 47,000 at best."
Minimizing the Jasenovacs genocide does no service to Croatia's reputation. Be a man and accept what Jasenovacs means to the world of nations.
" 1. disbandment of all extremist orginisations 2. forcing the Autonomy model that Beograd has offered 3. allowing foriegn forces to implement law and order "
Who will be charged with this task? Ahtissari, UN, EU or US? Will Serbia pay the salaries of these foreign forces? lolol You cannot implement something that is already going on. lolol Why bother with the talks? Don't be an idiot about Kosova. The only reason these talks were ever put into existence was to prolong the int'l supervision of an already Independent Kosova.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 22, 2007 15:44:25 GMT -5
Dijedon... He was a good polititian. Too bad he didn't take power when he could have. Pavelic betrayed the Croats by selling out the coast to the Italians. Dude, did I ever deny any of the extremist sides? No. Did I deny the Nazi past of Croatia? No. I know what happened dude, and who was involved. Dragoljub Mihajlovic saw it fit to keep Kosovo within Serbia because he was a Royalist, and to his ideology, Serbs lost their lives taking that land, by fighting and dying against the Ottoman Empire. Cetniks, like Ustase, and every other extremist, do things that their future generations are maybe embarrased about or deny the fact. That's to honour if anything? Dude than why are they fighting you for that land? Why not give it up willingly if thats how you view it. But then people bring up history from the Mid-1300, where Serbs fought for Kosovo, and that their monistaries are there, and its the heart of Serbia. Dude this argument can go back and forth, and so can the Figures of Numbers of people killed by the Ustase, or Cetniks, or Nazis, or whatever. Acutally... Six Jewish Families died in Albania from what I've been reading. You can lower the numbers all you want, but the mere fact is that, even though the locals did try and protect them, your government was collaborating with the SS to give up the locations of those people. Hell every nation had its fair share of protecting the Jewish community, even Germans. It doesn't make Albania any more special dude. ---- Tripwire, dude are you colourblind? What's with the colours dude? Actually, the people always learn from their mistakes. BTW, who do you see in the Hague cells now? As many Croats and Serbs as there is that they are looking for or have in custody, there is also Albanian extremists that are in the same position. So, what's your point? 1. It is true, Albania had a Puppet Gov't. 2. Yes, Jasenovac IS a reminder for all minorities in Croatia, and Croats themselves. That's why, by the Croatian Constitution, all Ustase Parties/Paraphernalia and all things included, are Illegal and Labled Criminal. So your argument is a little flawed. 3. Yes actually, I am posting from outside of Croatia. I moved here 5 years ago to go to school here, so I have a better future, and you know what, I'm glad to say that I'm here, and that I'm not suffering and doing nothing with my life like most people are down there. 1. Croatia was embargoed due to the Yugoslav Government presenting the HDZ-led Government as a Rebel Faction, as they did to the rest of the Republics that were Seceding. 2. The EU wants to see how far someone will go to get membership, and I admit that our government has been too relaxed and not upstanding on the whole issue. The EU loves to Abuse its power like that. I don't see Albania progressing foreward. You are so stupid dude. SO stupid. I have no other word for it. By your statement above, I could literally say, WITH legitimacy, that you sir, are stupid. Croatia might have been a Sub-Division of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but at least they did invest money in Croatia. By the Mid-1800's Croatia was getting full autonomy, and if it wasn't for WWI, we would have been an equal by 1918. Croatian polititians were getting more and more involved, and the Croatian Kingdom started to thrive. Dude, I don't even know what else to say to you. I can't even take you and your colours seriously anymore. Hone? You think using an advanced word you can talk to me about English? Dude, if something is not interesting, do you think it's inspiring? If it's anything, you're the one that needs to sharpen your skills in reading. Reading up on simple history. Dude, you're the one that needs a few more lessons in an ESL class. Acutally, no they aren't. It's won at the moment when one side crumbles. Acutally, most people in the world don't know what Jasenovac is. Also, 47,000-80,000 is one of the more realistic figures.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 22, 2007 16:20:09 GMT -5
Because Serbian revisionists tend to re-write history to suit a political agenda and thus create a basis for justifying territorial ambitions towards foreign lands .... and justify acts of retributions against those who've "wronged" the Serbian people in the past. That's why.
I don't know how you got into this. But, I will clarify some things. Firstly, all that BS about Kosova being the cradle of Serbdom and so forth is precisely and merely that; BS. Propaganda which goes back to the late 19th and early 20th century. Serbia needed access to the sea to not be dependant on trading routes which went through enemy lands, namely the AH empire. Since annexing Dalmatia meant direct conflict with the Austrians, the Serbs decided to take Northern and Central Albania and gain access to the Adriatic through our ports, such as Durrës. To take them, Kosova needed to be annexed as well. And here the propaganda machinery came in. Prior to that, heroes such as Marko Kraljevic, a traitor who fought on the Ottoman side 1389, were more praised in folk memory than personalities such as Prince Lazar or Milos Kopilic, the legendary assasin of Sultan Murad I.
All those arguments are indeed ridiculous, because they take into account a situation several centuries ago, which has nothing to do with presence. Presently, we Albanians comprise over ninety per cent of Kosova's population, and we do not want to have anything to do with Serbia. That's all that matters.
From what I know, not a single Jew in Albania was extradicted to Nazi camps of extermination. But even if you're correct, six Jewish families is still a small figure, however tragic. What makes us special? We were, if I am not mistaken, the single nation to have more Jews after WWII than before. Unlike so many others, we didn't initiate extermination progroms against any ethnic group. If other nations can say the same, honour to them. But that does not take anything away from us.
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 22, 2007 16:31:37 GMT -5
Because Serbian revisionists tend to re-write history to suit a political agenda and thus create a basis for justifying territorial ambitions towards foreign lands .... and justify acts of retributions against those who've "wronged" the Serbian people in the past. That's why. That's Albanians claims and not Serbs.. You know wrong, you've been spoof fed lies. Learn the real true history and BE BRAVE to face the truth D_A_M_N it. Kosovo IS Serb land....
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 22, 2007 17:05:36 GMT -5
Serb Revisionists try to re-write history to suit their political Agenda. Well, I'm sorry, every map I see, and I mean every single one, has it that Kosovo was in Serbia. Even from outside sources that are NOT Serb sources. Now see, that's pure propaganda BS what you've written there. Dude can you give me sources on what you just said (About North/Central Albania). Why would they need that if they have Montenegro Dude, I wasn't talking about Northern/Central Albania. I was talking about Kosovo. The "Battle of Kosovo" is called that because it took place smack dab in the middle of Kosovo. And who fought? Serbs fought. Why? Because they were protecting their own land. BTW, Serbia owned most of Albania in the 14th Century. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Dusanova_Srbija200.jpgRidiculous because I take into account a situation that happened centuries ago? Dude you do the same thing. Who connects Albanians to Illyrians and wants the lands of Dardania back in the "Rightful owners possessions". If you ask me, I think thats a little bit rediculous. So what If you compromise 90% of Kosovo? Kosovo is still Serbia dude, and will be. BTW, when Kosovo is denied their bid for Independence, the Populace will start leaving. So that's what makes you special? To have a larger Jewish population after the war than before the war? But then when the People's Rep. of Albania came into existance, by 1948, that population went into relative non-existance. BTW, Albania had a population of 1,000 Jews at best throughout the WWII period. www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/albania.htmlPS. There was a lot of Jewish internment, given the Numbers of the Populace, and the percent of internments.
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Post by vinjak on Nov 22, 2007 17:13:47 GMT -5
LOL When I said that Serbia should take care of the problem instantley I got Ethnic cleansing, War etc I explained my thinking on it and that is that. We know that it is Impossible that Serbia will be allowed to take care of the problem but I do think that if it was allowed to then within 12 months the problem would be stabilized. This "Iron will" Of the Albanian in Kosovo is actulay disintegrating acording to what I have been reading lately which is why Parimilitary orginisations are forming to try and solidify if not by nationalism then by intimidation and fear. The claim of how they are only there to counter the Tsar Lazar guard is just BS. People cannot afford bread and it does not look like the economic situation is going to get better even If Kosovo gets independence. Face it, Kosovo cannot go it alone it will have to stay with Serbia or merge with Albania and judging by Albanias economic prospects this would send Albania over the edge economicaly. But saying all this, as most of you know, I am in favour of division then you guys can do whatever you like with your Kosova join with Switzerland for all i care.
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donnie
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Nike Leka i Kelmendit
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Post by donnie on Nov 22, 2007 19:47:03 GMT -5
Did I deny that? No I did not. Yes, Kosova was part of the Serbian kingdom, or "empire" if you prefer. But it was also part of the Byzantine and Bulgarian empires. Should Greeks and Bulgarians claim the land too? What I meant is that Kosova wasn't the "cradle of Serbdom". A Serbian kingdom was founded in Rascia (and Dioclea, if you count contemporary Slavs of Zeta as ethnic Serbs) before Kosova was incorporated into the Nemanjid kingdom. " Durrës was an active city in the Albanian national liberation movement in the periods 1878-1881 and 1910-1912. Ismail Qemali raised the Albanian flag on November 26, 1912 but the city was captured by the Serbs three days later. The Serbs stayed in Durrës until 1913." [ftp]http://www.odyssei.com/travel-tips/1867.html[/ftp] " But Albanian opposition to the Treaty was swift -- it organized military forces that attacked the Serbs and Montenegrins who had occupied northern Albanian territories, and this instant and effective Albanian resistance produced continuous dissention among the world powers as the Balkans became a tinderbox threatening the peace of the Europe." " And because Greek armies in the south and Serbian armies in the north had already assumed control of major portions of Albania, Wied's government was doomed. The final blow came when Austria and Italy discontinued payment of Wied's 75 million francs, so, with his entourage, he finally sailed away from Albanian shores." You see, back in 1912-13, Montenegro was a kingdom of its own, and the Serbs needed their own seashore. It was agreed with Greece that Albanian territories were to be partitioned, giving Serbs everything north of the river Shkumbin (ports such as Durrës, St Gjin, and other cities such as Tirana, Elbasan, Peshkopia, Kukës, etc). There was to be no Albanain state. Austro-Hungary objected, however, and the other Great powers agreed to grant us a state which would, however, only include fifty per cent of the Albanain populace. How the fvck is that relevant? In that case, Serbs owned Croatia throughout much of the 20th century. Satisfied? Besides, occupy, rather than 'owned', would be a more suitable term. The free highlanders couldn't give a rat's a*ss on who formally 'governed' them, be it the Byzantines or anyone else. They were their own masters, as opposed to landtied Serbs who just happened to be of the same ethnicity as the nobility who enjoyed them as their serfs, or 'meropah'. And you're not listening. I know what you talked about. But to get their seashore, Serbs also needed Kosova, where there were also Serbs living. And so, they "revived", or better put fabricated, a myriad of lies about 1389 in order to produce a historical pretext, or 'casus belli', to invade Albanian lands. 'Revenge against the Mohammedans' -- that sort of crap. And so, heroes fallen in the shadow of neglect, such as Kopilic, were attributed renewed aspects and national dimensions, while the non-Serbian contribution in the battle of Kosova, such as the death of 4,000 Albanian warriors and their prince Theodor II Muzaka, was downplayed. We use that only to counter the Serbs. If you ask me, 1389 and the Dardanian era are equally irrelevant. But since Serbs like to play the game 'who came first', we're happy to join. Kosova isn't Serbia -- even from a nationalist Serb viewpoint that's fallacious; Kosova is a part of Serbia would be a better formulation. And based on that, I can only agree with you on the formal aspect, namely that Kosova is 'de jure' (although that too can be debated, taken into consideration the nature of Kosova's incorporation into Serbia 1912) part of Serbia. De facto, it is demographically overwhelmingly Albanian, politically a UN administered province and in all aspects, except the formal one, divided from Serbia. In the light of what happened in much of Europe, yes. That and that we didn't initiate exterminating progroms against foreign ethnic elements within our borders. Because Hoxha exterminated them No just joking, hope you didn't get excited. The Jews went to Israel. That's what happened. Some probably didn't like communism, while others didn't like Hoxha's communism. And some just wanted to get a fresh new start, in a Jewish state, i.e. Israel. Put that at around 2,000 souls. Nevertheless, I agree, a small figure. Which means it would have been even easier to extradict them to the Nazis. I have a book dealing with this precise subject. In it, it states only one Jew, a Partisan member, was killed, and he was so in combat; he wasn't targeted specifically for being Jewish in other terms. In either case, whether in numbers or percentage, Albania had far less Jewish casualties than most of contemporary Europe, let alone Croatia. And the same goes for other ethnicities living within our borders. As I said earlier, we were the most affected by the Serbs' nationalist policies prior to WWII. Sure your deputy, Radic, was killed in the parliament, but you weren't exposed to what we were exposed to. And yet we never undertook the same policies towards the Serbs as you did. Foolish, some extremist might say. I say honor to us for having greater hearts than that.
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Nov 22, 2007 19:56:05 GMT -5
vinjak
I agree that the economy is in a poor condition. Alot of that is tied to Serbia blocking the process by urging for a 'compromise', a word they're abusing right now -- you either have independence or not, everything but that can be 'compromised'; only one side wins.
But Serbs continue shouting 'compromise' without realizing or consciously ignoring its true meaning. Investors are consequently hesitant to put their money in a region where you have no clear political status. But remaining under Serbia isn't a better option. The economy was poor under your time as well, plus that we were being intimidated, persecuted and even killed as well as displaced.
Whether as an integral part of Serbia or as an independent state, Kosova will for some time be dependant on subsidies due to the poor economical condition. Naturally, we'll choose the latter. Then, perhaps, investors will crop up and we'll apply for credit to the World Bank for a fresh start. Perhaps that will calm your worrying heart, for I must admit, I am impressed by your sense of empathy for my people. I just wonder where it was in 1999.
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