libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 12, 2008 17:14:27 GMT -5
but here's the deal....there are no known illyrian influences in serbo croat, there is nothing tangible that solidifies that thesis, we know we have turkish influences, and roman also, we can actually trace and locate these words, we can compare albanian to homeric language and many words are identical, there the link, there the proof of us having been here since day one,
sometimes when things are percieved as being ambigeous is because we do not want to admit the truth, lets say there is no actual proof of the illyrian link, then use logical deduction, how did albs came to be? no one can backtrack our steps to anywhere else but where we are, anyone who's ever been pushed by his ill intent to embark on a mission to prove albs are not indigenous to the balcans has always been met with criticism and always been accused of purposely overlooking things like language, origin and influences.
illyrians and slavs did not mix to that extent, how do you explain this hostility between albs and slavs through the ages? it would be foolish to say there was no mixing at all, might have been marginal, and that is only in my opinion along the dalmat coastline where there was a heavy illyrian presence
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 17:16:25 GMT -5
How do you explain the hostility between Bosniak, Croat and Serb? Why would it be any different then the tenson with Albanians. Over land and historical differences.
What a dumb question.
And why do you keep ignoring the genetic data? Rofl I think i'll put it in my sig so its always there.
And btw John Wilkes is the foremost living expert ont he field.
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 12, 2008 17:28:20 GMT -5
How do you explain the hostility between Bosniak, Croat and Serb? Why would it be any different then the tenson with Albanians. Over land and historical differences. What a dumb question. And why do you keep ignoring the genetic data? Rofl I think i'll put it in my sig so its always there. And btw John Wilkes is the foremost living expert ont he field. what genetic data? whose genetic data? i've seen genetic data that outrightly proves otherwise, genetics proves nothing....absolutely nothing, that fossil used as the test subject must have obviously been a slav, john wilkes sounds like a f**cking amateur to me mate, of course people are going to read authors which please their agendas
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 17:32:14 GMT -5
How do you explain the hostility between Bosniak, Croat and Serb? Why would it be any different then the tenson with Albanians. Over land and historical differences. What a dumb question. And why do you keep ignoring the genetic data? Rofl I think i'll put it in my sig so its always there. And btw John Wilkes is the foremost living expert ont he field. what genetic data? whose genetic data? i've seen genetic data that outrightly proves otherwise, genetics proves nothing....absolutely nothing, that fossil used as the test subject must have obviously been a slav, john wilkes sounds like a f**cking amateur to me mate, of course people are going to read authors which please their agendas The genetic data they got from mapping the human genome and testing populations in the Balkan? Lol Like it or not, John Wilkes is viewed as the foremost living authority. See just because you don't like something, doesn't make it false, you see what I'm saying here? I don't give a s**t about Slavs or Serbs or Albanians being Illyrians, but I'm just dealing with facts here. Genes. don't. support. it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groupsIf you scroll down you can see the sources, which safe to say are reliable. I'm beginning to wonder if you guys even realize the human genome was mapped only in the last few years.
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 12, 2008 17:43:19 GMT -5
its not that i do not like smth mate, its just that you provide your own sources and arrogantly claim to be the truth, being subjective or that you are the fountain of knowledge that we should all regard as unfallible, this righteousness you are showing its ridiculous, serbs claim they have their sources who they also claim are solid and undisputable.....this f**cking thesis of slavs claiming illyrian heritage is old and ridiculed many times over ok? there is nothing to support the bulls**t, are you seriously telling me that bosniacs and croats have 50% 60% genome affinity/similarities with the illyrians and yet we can not see anything that indicates this in language, culture, features?? are you seriously trying to convince me that bosniacs and croats seem to have a predominant illyrian genetic make up....hence mostly illyrian and yet the slav genome is more dominant.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 18:01:18 GMT -5
its not that i do not like smth mate, its just that you provide your own sources and arrogantly claim to be the truth, being subjective or that you are the fountain of knowledge that we should all regard as unfallible, this righteousness you are showing its ridiculous, serbs claim they have their sources who they also claim are solid and undisputable.....this f**cking thesis of slavs claiming illyrian heritage is old and ridiculed many times over ok? there is nothing to support the bulls**t, are you seriously telling me that bosniacs and croats have 50% 60% genome affinity/similarities with the illyrians and yet we can not see anything that indicates this in language, culture, features?? are you seriously trying to convince me that bosniacs and croats seem to have a predominant illyrian genetic make up....hence mostly illyrian and yet the slav genome is more dominant. For the last time. They are not MY sources. They are litteraly dozens and dozens of different sources. HUMAN GENOME PROJECT. Look it up. Holy s**t. But no the WHOLE WORLD has it out for the poor Albanians. They RIGGED the findings that have been worked on for years. Just so spite the Albanians. Now you sound like a SERB. Plus it's interesting the comunist regime in Albania encouraged people to name their children illyrian names, when before that 99% of albanians never even heard of an Illryian. While Croats were claiming it for hundreds of years and even Napoleon refered to them as that. Also I love how you say "are you seriosly trying to tell me that croats and bosniaks have a genetic make up etc..". You say it as if it's smehow ridiculous when some of the biggest and MOST IMPORTANT tribes lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Even you know that. So once again I belive a part of Albanian heretige is Illyrian or Thraco-Illyrian. But genetics AND linguistics (illyrian and albanian belong to opposite groups) siggest it's is a smaller part then you'd like to belive. So you can talk down to epople all you want, but untill the international scientific community comes out and confirms your claims nobody gives a s**t what you say on a forum. Especialy when the Albanian government kind of gave it a bad stigma with their actions before and driving out any Albanian experts who dissagreed with the theory. One of them is well known but I forgot his name. So I dare you to try and dissprove any of what I just said. Dissprove any of it plz. Show me if anything I said is a lie.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 18:06:43 GMT -5
Oh and as for Illyrian culture surviving.....the tattooing of hands has only survived in two known places. Bosnia and Northern Albania by Montenegro. Tattoo needles were found in tombs in Bosnia. Some villige women still do it. Mostly catholic and Muslim from what I've seen. Look it up. Greek historian, Strabon (1st century BC) mentions tattooing among inhabitants of this area, saying that tattooing was common among the Illyrians. His testimony is supported by discovery of needles in Illyrian grave mounds in Bosnia. This custom remains until these days among the Catholics in Central Bosnia and Muslims and Catholics in the northern parts of Albania. English balkanologist Edith Durham studied that custom and copied dozens of patterns, simple geometrical shapes, circles, crosses and crescents that represents Sun, Moon with their rays. Women wear much more complex patterns comparing with men. Forearms and upper arms are often covered by all kinds of patterns. This custom is remarkable proof about the cultural continuity in Bosnia since Illyrians. For more information see an article by Ciro Truhelka: Die Tätowirung bei den Katholiken Bosniens und der Hercegovina (published in Wissenschaftliche Mittheilungen Aus Bosnien und der Hercegovina, herausgegeben vom Bosnisch-Hercegovinischen Landesmuseum in Sarajevo, redigiert von Dr. Moriz Hoernes, Vierter Band, Wien 1896). Not to mention one of the biggest Illyrian cities is in Bosnia. Daorson. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DaorsonSome of the most relevant tribes. Breuci, Ardiaei and of course Daesitiates and one of the leaders, Bato who resisted the Romans for years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Illyrian_tribesSorry.
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Post by srbobran on Jul 12, 2008 18:47:18 GMT -5
libofsha,
The Slavic gene is R1a which is high in Croat and Slovene populations. However, the rest of South Slavs have a much smaller percentage of it suggesting that South Slavs are only linguistically Slavs. Read kapetan's genetic charts (for which each fact is sourced and referenced) and you will see.
Kapetan,
Yes, you are right. If I recall correctly, Wilkes views Hercegovina, Montenegro, the Croatian Dalmatian Coast, and a large part of Bosnia as being the epicenter of Illyrian settlement. That being said, it has also been proven that many Illyrian tribes lived on modern day mainland Croatia and Serbia (the most powerful of which were the Triballi, although some authors state that they were Thraco-Illyrian) as well as the Pannonians which lived on what is now Northern Serbia, Vojvodina, Slavonia etc.
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Post by bordura on Jul 12, 2008 20:07:41 GMT -5
Haplogroup I which is believed to have arose in Europe since it doesn't really exist anywhere else except in super tiny amounts.
Herzegovinians = 63.8% Bosnians = 42% Croatians = 38.1% Serbs = 29.2% Albanians = 23.8% Kosovar Albanians = 2.7%
It can be found in most present-day European populations, with greatest density in Scandinavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Sardinia. The haplogroup is almost non-existent outside of Europe, suggesting that it arose in Europe.So ur claiming that based on this above ranking some "groups" have a higher density of coincidence of Haplogrup I. And since Haplogrup I is believed to had been aroused in Europe ur conclusion is; Bosnians are more European then the rest genetically speaking? Cool so what that has to do with having Illyrian roots? How Albanians and Illyrians are disconnected from the above tests???!!! No comparative test is done nor Illyrian genetic material is administered. Hence no direct comparative test can be made between Illyrian and todays Balkan population. Above chart has to do with human migration and in no way should be read as proving any cultural heritage. Be careful how u understand what u read. For the last time. They are not MY sources. They are litteraly dozens and dozens of different sources. HUMAN GENOME PROJECT. Look it up. Holy s**t.Yeah I looked it up and i found this: hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v75_Semino.pdfPhylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in EuropePrehistoric does it ring any bell to you? Where illyrian comes into equation? Slavs migrated toward Southwest in Europian continent. The gradient of Haplogroup I perfectly overlaps the Slav dominated areas of today Europe, with a strong concentration on axis Russia - Adriatic. Look at gradient map B. It makes perfect sence Haplogrupe I found in high concentrations on slavs also show on gradient reaching deep in russia and covers all the routes of slavic migration
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 20:11:21 GMT -5
OK HERE IS ALL OUR BALKAN PEOPLE AND THEIR STANDINGS IN EACH HAPLOGROUP.
I'M NOT CLAIMING ANYTHING HERE JUST THOUGHT YOU'D ALL BE INTERESTED.Here's a total breakdown of all our peoples for each gene and how they compare to others. Haplogroup R1b Its frequency is highest in Western Europe, especially in Atlantic Europe (and due to European emigration, in North America, South America, and Australia). In southern England, the frequency of R1b is about 70%, and in parts of north and western England, Spain, Portugal, France, Wales, Scotland and Ireland, the frequency of R1b is greater than 90%. It is also found in North Africa where its frequency surpasses 10% in some parts of Algeria.Kosovar Albanians - 21.1% Albanians - 17.6% Bulgarians - 17% Croats - 15.7% Serbs 10.6% Herzegovinians - 3.6% Bosnians 1.4% Haplogroup R1a (the so called Slavic gene) arose 15,000 years ago in the vicinity of Ukraine, expanding from either the Ukrainian LGM refuge following the end of the last ice age, or from the Pontic-Caspian steppe as a result of the Kurgan migrations. But some studies question these earlier findings and claim that R1a lineages may have its origin in North India.Croats - 34.3% Bosnians - 24.6% Serbs 15.9% Bulgarians 14.7% Herzegovians - 12.1% Albanians - 9.8% Kosovar Albanians - 4.4% Some of the highest in the world are: Ukrainians - 54% Poles - 56.4% Kyrgyz (Turkic group in Kyrgyzstan) - 63.5% Tajiks (ethnic group in Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan) - 64% Haplogroup IY-DNA Haplogroup I (the letter I, not the number 1) represents nearly one-fifth of the population of Europe. It can be found in most present-day European populations, with greatest density in Scandinavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Sardinia. The haplogroup is almost non-existent outside of Europe, suggesting that it arose in Europe. Estimates of the age of Haplogroup I suggest that it arose prior to the Last Glacial Maximum. It may have been confined to refugia around the Black Sea and in the Balkans during the last Ice Age, and then spread northward during the recolonization of northern Europe following the retreat of the glaciers.Herzegovinians = 63.8% (litteraly the highest in the world) Bosnians = 42% Croatians = 38.1% Serbs = 29.2% Albanians = 23.8% Kosovar Albanians = 2.7% Sardinians also have 42.3%. Haplogroup EE1a and E2 are found almost exclusively in Africa, and only E1b1b is observed in significant frequencies in Europe and western Asia in addition to Africa. Most Sub-Saharan Africans belong to subclades of E other than E1b1b, while most non-Africans who belong to haplogroup E belong to its E1b1b subclade. Haplogroup E would appear to have arisen in Northeast Africa based on the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area today. Kosovar Albanians - 45.6% Albanians - 23.5% Bulgarians - 20.7% Serbs - 20.4% Bosnians - 10.1% Herzegovinians - 8.5% Croatians - 5.6% Haplogroup JHaplogroup J is believed to have arisen 31,700 years ago (plus or minus 12,800 years) in the Near East (Semino et al. 2004). Haplogroup J is found in greatest concentration in the Caucasus and Southwest Asia. Outside of these regions, haplogroup J has a moderate presence in Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Greece, and Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of its subclade J2-M172. Haplogroup J is also found in North Africa and the Horn of Africa, particularly in the form of its subclade J1-M267. Subclades J2a and J2a1b1 are found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and southern Italy.Albanians - 27.5% Kosovar Albanians - 16.7% Croatians - 8.8% Serbs - 5.3% Herzegovinians - 0.7% Bosnians - 0.0% The greatest amounts are in Arabs and Caucasian peoples 70-90%. Haplogroup Gtheorized to have originated, according to the latest thinking, in the Near East or Southern Asia, probably in the region that is now northern India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.[citation needed] The haplogroup began to spread with the Neolithic Agricultural Revolution, perhaps with the appearance of the early horse nomads of the Eurasian steppe.Albanians - 2.0% Bosnians - no data Croats - no data Herzegovinians - no data Serbs - no data Highest is in Gerogians at 30% Haplogroups N,T and L all seem to be 0 or no data for all of us. YOU CAN CHECK THESE SOURCES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE THEY ARE ALL RELIABLE. (National Geographic, Stanford, National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America and many others from litteraly all corners of the globe).
EACH PIECE OF DATA HAS A CITATION YOU CAN CHECK FOR YOURSELF. Each even have extensive PDF files with info and sources.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 12, 2008 20:19:57 GMT -5
Don't tell the Albanians this (tattooing) they may start to do this practice amoungst themselves, you know, only in recent times they started to name their children with supposedly illyrian names.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 20:21:18 GMT -5
Don't tell the Albanians this (tattooing) they may start to do this practice amoungst themselves, you know, only in recent times they started to name their children with supposedly illyrian names. Some North Albanian parts already do it. It's only found in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Noth Albania.
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Post by terroreign on Jul 12, 2008 20:28:21 GMT -5
^That's strange that it passes up Montenegro, are you sure?
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 20:29:37 GMT -5
^That's strange that it passes up Montenegro, are you sure? I don't think it's a case of going from one side to the other and skipping Montenegro, it just so happens in survived in those two places. As far as we know. Greek historian, Strabon (1st century BC) mentions tattooing among inhabitants of this area, saying that tattooing was common among the Illyrians. His testimony is supported by discovery of needles in Illyrian grave mounds in Bosnia. This custom remains until these days among the Catholics in Central Bosnia and Muslims and Catholics in the northern parts of Albania. English balkanologist Edith Durham studied that custom and copied dozens of patterns, simple geometrical shapes, circles, crosses and crescents that represents Sun, Moon with their rays. Women wear much more complex patterns comparing with men. Forearms and upper arms are often covered by all kinds of patterns. This custom is remarkable proof about the cultural continuity in Bosnia since Illyrians. For more information see an article by Ciro Truhelka: Die Tätowirung bei den Katholiken Bosniens und der Hercegovina (published in Wissenschaftliche Mittheilungen Aus Bosnien und der Hercegovina, herausgegeben vom Bosnisch-Hercegovinischen Landesmuseum in Sarajevo, redigiert von Dr. Moriz Hoernes, Vierter Band, Wien 1896). I also asked my dad and he's only heard of it central Bosnia (where we're from) and North Albania as well.
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Post by bordura on Jul 12, 2008 20:29:39 GMT -5
....Here's a total breakdown of all our peoples for each gene and how they compare to others... and u give the break down (i'm not disputing the numbers) the chart it perfectly separates Albanians from other slavs or it groups slavs together as similar.
What does that have to do with Illyrians?
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 20:31:17 GMT -5
....Here's a total breakdown of all our peoples for each gene and how they compare to others... and u give the break down (i'm not disputing the numbers) the chart it perfectly separates Albanians from other slavs or it groups slavs together as similar. What does that have to do with Illyrians? Wtf stop complaining like a little b***h. Obviosly all of our roots are a big factor in this discussion, AND it's just PLAIN INTERESTING. Did it bother you that I posted it? I clearly said it was only for those purposes not to claim anything. You on your period or some shit? You acting like a radical Serb right now!
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Post by terroreign on Jul 12, 2008 20:42:16 GMT -5
Hey heres a little interesting factoid which I believe is an influence from the Illyrians, I noticed many Montenegrins back 100s of years ago used to shave their heads, but keep the hair on the back of their head. I believe this was a certain tribal sign in Montenegrin culture, not too sure.
But I believe it is a very indigenous cultural trait that the Montenegrins carried with them since the Illyrians.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 20:46:11 GMT -5
Hey heres a little interesting factoid which I believe is an influence from the Illyrians, I noticed many Montenegrins back 100s of years ago used to shave their heads, but keep the hair on the back of their head. I believe this was a certain tribal sign in Montenegrin culture, not too sure. But I believe it is a very indigenous cultural trait that the Montenegrins carried with them since the Illyrians. Funny thing is blood has nothing to do with being proud of the Illyrian heretige of our contries. Even if all of us our only 1% conected to them all those things they built and did are still historical parts of our countries and heretige of our land. From Croatia to Albania. And clearly some customs survived that's inevitable. Look how proud Greeks are of their ancient counterparts. Interesting thing is, only a few people say we were completly slavicized, but Romans had us for super long and we weren't Romanized. Turks had us for 500 years we weren't Turkisized as a whole society. Just took their faith which is common. Thats how eveyrone became Christians in the first place. By adopting it from Rome and Bysantium. From Romans, to Turks to Austrians nobodys managed to erase our things and turn us into them.....so a "full slavicization" of everyone on the balkan is a little suspect and inconsistant.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 13, 2008 7:11:29 GMT -5
Oh and as for Illyrian culture surviving.....the tattooing of hands has only survived in two known places. Bosnia and Northern Albania by Montenegro. Tattoo needles were found in tombs in Bosnia. Some villige women still do it. Mostly catholic and Muslim from what I've seen. Look it up. Greek historian, Strabon (1st century BC) mentions tattooing among inhabitants of this area, saying that tattooing was common among the Illyrians. His testimony is supported by discovery of needles in Illyrian grave mounds in Bosnia. This custom remains until these days among the Catholics in Central Bosnia and Muslims and Catholics in the northern parts of Albania. English balkanologist Edith Durham studied that custom and copied dozens of patterns, simple geometrical shapes, circles, crosses and crescents that represents Sun, Moon with their rays. Women wear much more complex patterns comparing with men. Forearms and upper arms are often covered by all kinds of patterns. This custom is remarkable proof about the cultural continuity in Bosnia since Illyrians. For more information see an article by Ciro Truhelka: Die Tätowirung bei den Katholiken Bosniens und der Hercegovina (published in Wissenschaftliche Mittheilungen Aus Bosnien und der Hercegovina, herausgegeben vom Bosnisch-Hercegovinischen Landesmuseum in Sarajevo, redigiert von Dr. Moriz Hoernes, Vierter Band, Wien 1896). Not to mention one of the biggest Illyrian cities is in Bosnia. Daorson. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DaorsonSome of the most relevant tribes. Breuci, Ardiaei and of course Daesitiates and one of the leaders, Bato who resisted the Romans for years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Illyrian_tribesSorry. Ok let's talk about Albanian culture that is very old and too this culture was among Illyrians (but not Dacians or Thracians) (translate from here): sdsnews.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/intervista-vetem-nje-ore-ne-galerine-kombetare-te-arteve-per-veshjen-me-te-vjeter-ne-bote-e-mbetur-gjalle/www.shqiperia.com/kat/m/shfaqart/aid/3283/Xhubleta-shqiptare,-UNESCO-duhet-ti-beje-nje-vend.html Xhubleta is the traditional folk garment of the women të Malësisë se madhe, Shkoder, Rafshin e Dukagjinit (West Kosova) and Albanians of Montenegro .Etnografiks consider it with a very old origin. The Xhubleta corresponds to the Neolithic stone drawings of dresses in Klicecac in Bosnia(The ancient home of the Illyrian tribe Auritae) . Many modern scientist consider the Xhubleta the oldest women garment in Europe because it has a history more then 4000 years.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 13, 2008 7:36:30 GMT -5
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