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Post by chalkedon on Jul 28, 2009 9:15:36 GMT -5
also, Just because the US supports Turkey doesnt mean they interfere. LOL ! they are just expressing an opinion...besides, isnt Greece supporting Turkey ?
for the last time...america is not the america we used to know. They simply dont have that power anymore...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jul 28, 2009 9:20:57 GMT -5
US were present in the dealing in '45...as much its Europe's fault for what happened to Eastern Europe the same is America's. Sarkozy is a personality that can make Europe some steps forward...of course as you say common exterior policy is utopic but at least none has to serv non-Europeans interests(see USA)... And what America gave to Europe after the WWII(Marshal plan etc) it took it back multiple...and still takes it...all Europe owe to US...
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Jul 28, 2009 9:30:27 GMT -5
also, Just because the US supports Turkey doesnt mean they interfere. LOL ! they are just expressing an opinion...besides, isnt Greece supporting Turkey ? Come on...the same they do with Skopia...how do they know what Europe needs... Well yes, Greece supports Turkey for many reasons...one is that a european oriented neighbor is better that a tatar oriented one... ... ...so many years that Greece openly disagreed with Turkey's entering Westerners had the excuse that Greece doesn't want and we need omophonia(consensus(?))..today let them handle it... A full Turkey's accession in EU, will be a disaster, only a special relation status between EU-Turkey is reasonable, and I'd like to see.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 28, 2009 9:45:18 GMT -5
I agree that a full access of Turkey into the EU would be a disaster. This country and its people do not belong to Europe.
Personally I hope that Turkey will distance itself from Europe in the next years...after feeling pissed off due to the game Europe is playing with it for years now. Turkey has to become an open enemy of Greece again...we do not benefit from a friendship with it. But much more important than enmity with Greece is a simultaneous enmity with Europe and the western world of Turkey.
Greece must be clever...and avoid any only bilateral enmities with this much stronger neighbour...on the other hand Greece has to make use of any situation to stab this f.ucking country in the back whenever its given the chance to it. Turkey has to be demolished, there will never be real Greek-Turkish friendship, the Aegean airspace violations prove it day by day. They have never taken us seriously and never will do. Lets make use of that.
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Lib-Fier
Amicus
Bricklayer 'works for meals'
Posts: 1,092
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Post by Lib-Fier on Jul 28, 2009 9:57:16 GMT -5
Turks a lot more civilised and tolerant in my opinion that greeks or serbs, i really believe that no bullsh1t
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 28, 2009 10:08:15 GMT -5
US were present in the dealing in '45...as much its Europe's fault for what happened to Eastern Europe the same is America's. Yes..for this you are somewhat right.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jul 28, 2009 10:08:19 GMT -5
I would expect nothing less of a TA that stabbed Scani in the back...at least you stick to your own kind...so in that essence I commend you.
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 28, 2009 10:10:51 GMT -5
also, Just because the US supports Turkey doesnt mean they interfere. LOL ! they are just expressing an opinion...besides, isnt Greece supporting Turkey ? Come on...the same they do with Skopia...how do they know what Europe needs... Well yes, Greece supports Turkey for many reasons...one is that a european oriented neighbor is better that a tatar oriented one... ... ...so many years that Greece openly disagreed with Turkey's entering Westerners had the excuse that Greece doesn't want and we need omophonia(consensus(?))..today let them handle it... A full Turkey's accession in EU, will be a disaster, only a special relation status between EU-Turkey is reasonable, and I'd like to see. Bush supported skopia...not America. We have to be clear on this. Neo-Con foreign policy is to blame for many of America's problems today. Special relationship will be a disaster for us...the turks wont have to abide by any EU rules. You pretty much let them do whatever they want...besides we are not shooting them down now, what do you think we will do later ? Etsi pos pame...tha tous dosoume to miso aegeao na isixasoume..
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 28, 2009 10:14:24 GMT -5
I agree that a full access of Turkey into the EU would be a disaster. This country and its people do not belong to Europe. Personally I hope that Turkey will distance itself from Europe in the next years...after feeling pissed off due to the game Europe is playing with it for years now. Turkey has to become an open enemy of Greece again...we do not benefit from a friendship with it. But much more important than enmity with Greece is a simultaneous enmity with Europe and the western world of Turkey. Greece must be clever...and avoid any only bilateral enmities with this much stronger neighbour...on the other hand Greece has to make use of any situation to stab this f.ucking country in the back whenever its given the chance to it. Turkey has to be demolished, there will never be real Greek-Turkish friendship, the Aegean airspace violations prove it day by day. They have never taken us seriously and never will do. Lets make use of that. Kastor....we dont take ourselves seriously, how can you expect the turks to ? Turkey has a plan, self-confidence, and a vision to become a major power by 2023. Greece has to wake up from the frappedes and do the same.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 28, 2009 10:17:28 GMT -5
Turks a lot more civilised and tolerant in my opinion that greeks or serbs, i really believe that no bullsh1t They are less racist than us yes, but dear Libo, I wonder why you do not see that the Albanians are as intolerant as the Greeks or Serbs, not to say you even much more racist. You guys have zero self-reflexion...you only look what others do...and are experts in complaining about unjust treatment and intolerance...but only in those cases where you are the victims... paradoxically you arent a bit better if you get the role of the predominant ....but you lack to see that...and thats pretty primitive....self-perception is an essential element of a progressive person...how can you appear as an advocate of tolerance if you are yourself backward as hell...
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 28, 2009 10:20:34 GMT -5
I agree that a full access of Turkey into the EU would be a disaster. This country and its people do not belong to Europe. Personally I hope that Turkey will distance itself from Europe in the next years...after feeling pissed off due to the game Europe is playing with it for years now. Turkey has to become an open enemy of Greece again...we do not benefit from a friendship with it. But much more important than enmity with Greece is a simultaneous enmity with Europe and the western world of Turkey. Greece must be clever...and avoid any only bilateral enmities with this much stronger neighbour...on the other hand Greece has to make use of any situation to stab this f.ucking country in the back whenever its given the chance to it. Turkey has to be demolished, there will never be real Greek-Turkish friendship, the Aegean airspace violations prove it day by day. They have never taken us seriously and never will do. Lets make use of that. Kastor....we dont take ourselves seriously, how can you expect the turks to ? Turkey has a plan, self-confidence, and a vision to become a major power by 2023. Greece has to wake up from the frappedes and do the same. You cannot compare Greece and Turkey...Greece is a small country...we have only chances within the EU...thats reality. Turkey is a big country...with a very high birthrate. They have apparently (but onyl apparently ) better chances to become sth major. If they indeed have such plans...its great...I will support them if they are going to make this step...provided...they will go it alone..
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Aris
Amicus
Greek Troll
Posts: 832
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Post by Aris on Jul 28, 2009 10:21:44 GMT -5
You cannot compare Greece and Turkey...Greece is a small country...we have only chances within the EU...thats reality. Turkey is a big country...with a very high birthrate. They have apparently (but onyl apparently ) better chances to become sth major. If they indeed have such plans...its great...I will support them if they are going to make this step...provided...they will go it alone.. +1
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 28, 2009 10:26:18 GMT -5
Sorry Kastor, I dont buy it. Thats an excuse we use all the time. We never had a problem against the persians, ottomans and even nazi's when it came down to it. We have shown our greatness througout history going against the odds.
We have become lazy, careless and just dont want to be bothered with anything. Greek families have only 1 maybe 2 kids because they dont want to ruin their lifestyle. I firmly believe that if something happened between us and Turkey, that would be a great day for Hellas. A rememberance of how we can defend our country and how we dont take chit from anybody.
Makari na eixame polemo, i would be the first to enlist...and Im not just saying that.
whatever happened to this type of mentality ?
"Because only we, contrary to the Barbarians, never count the enemy in battle" Aeschylus
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 28, 2009 10:38:54 GMT -5
1. Persians: We are not living in ancient times.
2. Ottomans: The Ottomans did always f.uck us ...whenever we fought against them hand to hand. Read history...not the 1821 myths. Greece has never ever won a Greek-turkish war. Never. The Greeks should finally become aware of their potential...and the limits of it. Read history and learn from it finally dear Greek. We have made many rigth steps...but many mistakes, too. Learn from both and use them in the most benefitting way.
3. Nazis: Come on...the Germans overran us. The Italians are another story. Of course it was a great effort of our grandfathers. But keep in mind that the italian army was disastrously organized.
What we can learn from history is that Greece had the most military achievements when it fought in alliances (-Balkan wars)...these were the wars we could free most of our territory. And the first Greek kingdom was actually a present of the western powers. The revolution itself was a failure actually. We just learn sth else at school...Im against myths...they lead to catastrophies usually...wlepe 1922...
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 28, 2009 10:48:37 GMT -5
thats the problem file, we have abandoned completely our roots. Its time to go back..
Kastor, if we didnt try to reach the limits of anatolia....we would have Constantinople and Asia Minor today. We lost due to our arrogance, not due to the turks...that is clear
Yes, I meant the italians.....we still gave the germans a good run though.
Not myths file....we have tremendous resilience when we are pushed. We need someone to push us again...Im hoping turkey does this favor for us. We cannot go around preaching how great we were 1500 yrs ago...this has to stop. We have to live for the future...Or else the only thing we will ever have is just " history " nothing else...
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Lib-Fier
Amicus
Bricklayer 'works for meals'
Posts: 1,092
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Post by Lib-Fier on Jul 28, 2009 10:54:11 GMT -5
Turks a lot more civilised and tolerant in my opinion that greeks or serbs, i really believe that no bullsh1t They are less racist than us yes, but dear Libo, I wonder why you do not see that the Albanians are as intolerant as the Greeks or Serbs, not to say you even much more racist. You guys have zero self-reflexion...you only look what others do...and are experts in complaining about unjust treatment and intolerance...but only in those cases where you are the victims... paradoxically you arent a bit better if you get the role of the predominant ....but you lack to see that...and thats pretty primitive....self-perception is an essential element of a progressive person...how can you appear as an advocate of tolerance if you are yourself backward as hell... c'mon, that's a very hasty and unfair statement to make, albanians are among the most upfront, self-deprecating people in the balcans, if anyone is going to say it to you straight up then its albos, we're not conceited or believe to be some devinely chosen race like many greeks seem to believe, and don't even get me started on serbs, they have no right to utter a sound, they are for all intents an purposes uninvited guests in the balcans that have overstayed their welcome and they by any stretch of the imagination do not either embody,epitomise or tipify the balcans, your statement shows how little you know of albanians or albania, you have a very poor opinion of us on accoutn of religion, and that is a very narrow minded approach to take when passing judgement on an entire nation, this self imposed state of paranoia you have trapped yourselfs in is clouding your judgement, that's a very unhealthy phenomenon for any society, for long spells of time when you had no contact with albanians you were conditioned to view albanians as enemies, as collaborators and left over turks when nothing could be further from the truth, to convience you otherwise would crumble the very misguided greek belief system that is fueling the rampant xenophobia which has become an accepted and often state endrosed social norm, the point is that you need to believe all these fairy tales and myths perpetuated over centuries, those are the founding principles of your existence, you would be shocked at how different albania is from how you percieve it, how tolerant it is when discussing matters of ethnicity, nationality, regionality and geo politics generally, that doesn't make us less cohesive as a peoples, you would change a lot of youe preconcieved notions about albs if you spent some time there.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 28, 2009 10:56:42 GMT -5
I dont know... On whom did our ancient ancestors look back actually? It was still the turkish army that smashed our arrogant lead and soldiers...I dont know if we had gotten Constantinople...but Smyrna, Eastern Thrace and even the southern coast of the Marmara Sea would be a part of Greece today, yes. Indeed. Our grandfathers did a great job. I must say Im a bit fed up with this ancient Greece....Greece needs a new but realistic self-positioning...
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 28, 2009 11:00:13 GMT -5
good post except you said we are " xenophobic ". Come to Greece to see how xenophobic we are.....that could not be further from the truth. I wish we were xenophobic...maybe our kids wouldnt be speaking greeklish and adopting english names cause its cool that way.
Dont confuse arrogance with xenophobia...they often co-incide with each other
Not to mention each paki, afghan, bangladesh and any other ethnic person that comes here.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 28, 2009 11:02:59 GMT -5
They are less racist than us yes, but dear Libo, I wonder why you do not see that the Albanians are as intolerant as the Greeks or Serbs, not to say you even much more racist. You guys have zero self-reflexion...you only look what others do...and are experts in complaining about unjust treatment and intolerance...but only in those cases where you are the victims... paradoxically you arent a bit better if you get the role of the predominant ....but you lack to see that...and thats pretty primitive....self-perception is an essential element of a progressive person...how can you appear as an advocate of tolerance if you are yourself backward as hell... c'mon, that's a very hasty and unfair statement to make, albanians are among the most upfront, self-deprecating people in the balcans, if anyone is going to say it to you straight up then its albos, we're not conceited or believe to be some devinely chosen race like many greeks seem to believe, and don't even get me started on serbs, they have no right to utter a sound, they are for all intents an purposes uninvited guests in the balcans that have overstayed their welcome and they by any stretch of the imagination do not either embody,epitomise or tipify the balcans, your statement shows how little you know of albanians or albania, you have a very poor opinion of us on accoutn of religion, and that is a very narrow minded approach to take when passing judgement on an entire nation, this self imposed state of paranoia you have trapped yourselfs in is clouding your judgement, that's a very unhealthy phenomenon for any society, for long spells of time when you had no contact with albanians you were conditioned to view albanians as enemies, as collaborators and left over turks when nothing could be further from the truth, to convience you otherwise would crumble the very misguided greek belief system that is fueling the rampant xenophobia which has become an accepted and often state endrosed social norm, the point is that you need to believe all these fairy tales and myths perpetuated over centuries, those are the founding principles of your existence, you would be shocked at how different albania is from how you percieve it, how tolerant it is when discussing matters of ethnicity, nationality, regionality and geo politics generally, that doesn't make us less cohesive as a peoples, you would change a lot of youe preconcieved notions about albs if you spent some time there. Lib-Fier dont blame me for sth I cant help. You say I dont know the Albanian people...perhaps...but I have met many Albanians here...its not my fault that they are giving such an impression...you guys here are representing your people...didnt you know that?
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Post by chalkedon on Jul 28, 2009 11:07:52 GMT -5
good question....One thing is for sure, this modern day hellenism is not working. I dont know if i should blame the church for this... Yes, they defeated us when we completely over-extended ourselves. My grandfather fought in that war...and he used to tell me stories about it. Agreed !
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