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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 4, 2009 10:01:06 GMT -5
^ just a red herring, ruse. Do some reading of proper histories, not something that came from pseudo historians in Sofia for instance.
Tell me Ruse, why would Kubers people name a city in asia minor as Gordoservon (serbian habitation).
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Post by rusebg on Oct 4, 2009 10:31:06 GMT -5
All right, you don't understand Serbian. If you did, you would see that it was Serbian authors who were taken as a reference for the article.
And you dare to discuss on issues such as Balkan languages?! You are tasteless joke. Get out of here, you waste of time.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 4, 2009 14:02:12 GMT -5
..maybe you or the people you hang around belong mentaly to middle east. Not me or my environment mate.. By the way... in a Greek beach bar during summer you can see how middle eastern mentality have the Greek women.. ;D ;D I doubt there is any other place in Balkans where women are sooo free like they're in Greece. Now.. by free.. if you mean women to be like men like it happens in Britain.. no thanks dude. We'll want them as they're; free and feminin. You didn't need to get personal again, anyway i explain: A small (professional) van waits in the traffic lights. Two dudes are sitting (driver/co-driver) in the front seats. A cute young woman walks among the cars and gives away some commercial brochures. Serbia ====== The guys will not even open the window. Greece ====== the guys will have the car's windows open and some skyladiko song playing loud, and one of them will talk to the girl (with 99% probability) and say smth varying between 'what nice eyes' to 'i will make your "behind" like german "taliro"' at the other extreme. Thats what i call arabic. The average working class (mastoras, souvlatzis etc...) has arabic brains. As to which women in the balkans have more open minds, dude take some trips in balkans and then come back to share your thoughts. yeah.. Pyrros.. that may happen... BUT.. it MAY happen. There are men around earth with low educational level and manners. Why you always compare the worst of the Greeks with the best of other Balkanians? Its like taking a villager from Serbia.. compare him with the famous worldwide Egyptian cardiologist Dr. Jakoub..... and come to the conclusion that Egyptians are more advanced than Serbians! Its getting boring mate... If you want to be fair just ask.. what is the percentage of that worst Greeks and the percentage of the worst Balkanians. And finally.. what is the percentage of the world famous Greek scientists or cultural people.. .and the percentage of the similar Balkanians?
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 4, 2009 14:46:38 GMT -5
Actually, I think Basil considers Bulgarians the only Slavic people. He is always referring to Bulgarians as Slavs. No other Slavic people are considered Slavic in his views. I wonder how the other Slavic people feel about that. maybe all Serbs/Bosnian Serbs/Bosnian Muslims and half of the croats are Bulgarians as well by this logic. Basil, are you Ioan in disguise? Guys to clear out something. There are reasons for anybody to support something. Pyrros and Novi prefer Macedonians to be former Serbians because of the Serbian culture they both belong or like. Ioan and Ruse prefer Macedonians to be former Bulgarians because of the Bulgarian culture they both belong Demosthenes prefer Macedonians not to be connected with Serbs or Bulgarians because his wants a "Macedonian" descent. Me.. in my case I dont care if Macedonians are Serbs or Bulgarians. Personally, as a Macedonian, I know they're not "Macedonians" and they're Slavs.. and I care less in which Slavic group they belong... since it is clear for me they're not Greeks So.. I dont have any personal gain if they belong to Slavic group 1 or 2. There is no reason for me to take sides in your dispute. I care less if you Pyrro or Ioan is prooven right or wrong. Can you get that? Now.. why I prefer to mention the Bulgarian descent for Macedonians and not the Serbian..? Its not because I like Bulgarians and I dont like Serbs or something like that. I like both nations a lot. But.. read the following and you might get an idea.. As I told you, I belong to a family that always men were dying fighting mainly people from the "north neighboring" area. This family, were native Macedonians and that is why they got used of wars with those "northern" neigboring people generations by generation. Now.. this family was a very connected family and traditions or history stuff were transfered from generation to generation so as their children to be prepared for the war they will have to take part in the future... since it was a common thing for them to see their children fighting the same and the same enemy for generation after generation. Now... back to the point! Since I'm a member of that family..... my grandfather was telling me stories about his grandfathers and the wars or battles with these "northern" neighbors etc etc etc. in order to "prepare" me for the future because in his mind he had the idea that history will repeat itself sooner or later. NOW.... ALL these "northern' enemies he was referring to me had the label.. "South Bulgarians"!... and all the cities of these "southern" Bulgarians he was reffering to, were.. Blagoevgrad, Deltsevo, Strumnitsa and other Bulgarian and Macedonian (today) cities without any differentiation between the 2 people as Demosthenes or you Pyrros would love to see. Sorry dudes.. but its not my fault. Now.. in order for that old, uneducated villager, without any idea of politics or propaganda... and who had fight with these people HIMSELF in WW2... and who was the son of*guy who had fought with these people HIMSELF too in Macedonian Struggle, and who was again the son of a man who had fought with these people again HIMSELF in a topical level around his village... there must be A REASON CALL THEM BULGARIANS .. AND NOT SERBS OR CROATIANS OR RUSSIANS!!! Today, all of us, we're siting in front of our desktops .. and we all try to think how it will be fine things to be so as to excuse our ideas or beliefs. Sorry dudes.. but somehow.. I tend to believe him more than any Pyrros or Demosthenes or Ioan or Novi or any other educated internet warrior who have a reason to believe in something. He didnt have. The only thing he knew was to identify his enemies and to fight. So simple. No deep thoughts.. not deep hate.. no propaganda no bs. Just a survival for him and his family against the known enemies: the south Bulgarians. Sorry Pyrro.. nothing personal against your ideas of beliefs. That is what I've been told by a person who was into that fight generation by generation.. and that is what I transfer. There is nothing like "I like Bulgarians more than Serbs" or bs like that. I like Serbs very much.. even more than many southern Greeks as you know........ but that is what I know about this issue and I hope you justify me.. since my "sources" are very reliable and there was no personal gain for him to tell me such stuff. He could tell me.. "be aware from the Serbs"... he could tell me "be aware from the Croatians" or whatever..... but he told me.. "be aware of southern Bulgarians"! Now.. do you want me to ask "excuse me" for that? My personal belief is that in the north of Macedonia people are Serbians . In the centre and south people are Bulgarians. But unfortunately for you.. since the military units those times were consisted mainly from regional soldiers and not from all over each country........ my grandfather came in contact with southern Macedonians (today ) and southern Bulgarians. Back then.. they were all southern Bulgarians. For sure.. he didnt came in any contact with Serb people from todays Macedonia.
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Post by rusebg on Oct 4, 2009 15:02:28 GMT -5
Probably the best post I have read here.
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Kanaris
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This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
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Post by Kanaris on Oct 4, 2009 18:54:29 GMT -5
Bravo,Basil...
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Oct 4, 2009 23:27:15 GMT -5
indeed bravo basil
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 0:11:04 GMT -5
You didn't need to get personal again, anyway i explain: A small (professional) van waits in the traffic lights. Two dudes are sitting (driver/co-driver) in the front seats. A cute young woman walks among the cars and gives away some commercial brochures. Serbia ====== The guys will not even open the window. Greece ====== the guys will have the car's windows open and some skyladiko song playing loud, and one of them will talk to the girl (with 99% probability) and say smth varying between 'what nice eyes' to 'i will make your "behind" like german "taliro"' at the other extreme. Thats what i call arabic. The average working class (mastoras, souvlatzis etc...) has arabic brains. As to which women in the balkans have more open minds, dude take some trips in balkans and then come back to share your thoughts. yeah.. Pyrros.. that may happen... BUT.. it MAY happen. There are men around earth with low educational level and manners. Why you always compare the worst of the Greeks with the best of other Balkanians? Its like taking a villager from Serbia.. compare him with the famous worldwide Egyptian cardiologist Dr. Jakoub..... and come to the conclusion that Egyptians are more advanced than Serbians! Its getting boring mate... If you want to be fair just ask.. what is the percentage of that worst Greeks and the percentage of the worst Balkanians. And finally.. what is the percentage of the world famous Greek scientists or cultural people.. .and the percentage of the similar Balkanians? i am comparing: waiter VS waiter Souvlatzis VS cevapcici maker taxi driver VS taxi driver people waiting in queue in greece (queue??? what is that?) VS people waiting in queue in Serbia hotel receptionist VS hotel receptionist gypsy VS gypsy (big difference) Doctor's office VS Doctor's office Post-surgery treatment in greece (absent - not existent) VS Post-surgery treatment in Serbia/Bosnia driver VS driver (Oh and since you mentioned it:) Peasant vs Peasant Basil, if we really love this country, we really have to work very hard.... All else is stupid hipocrisy and nothing more.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 0:23:50 GMT -5
basil, the greek slavs and south Macedonians/south eastern(S/E of Veles) Macedonians speak a language close to west of Sofia's dialect (which is not "typical" "bulgarian" as you should have known by reading these threads, but actually with heavy similarities with Serb language, look at the yat line, Novi talks about). From the center of Macedonia and up north things get pretty more Serbian. Two greek slavs (one woman i know very well and lawyer as a professional), tells me that they understand better S/E slavo-makedonians and wetsern bulgarians, rather than Skopians from the capitol. So most probably your grandfather fought against ppls who spoke that dialect.
Also, note that due to the proximity of the bulgars to Byzantium, Byzantines due to their limited knowledge were calling all slavs as Bulgarians.
Also note that, even if all those bad bad bad slavomakedonians were BAD BAD BAD BAD "bulgarians" who were killing the good good good good native makedonians greeks, just for the sake of politics, and taking into account that those people DONT LIKE THE BAD BAD BAD BAD term bulgarians any more but makedonias, which aggresiveness wise sounds better, right? Why would you want to make those bad bad bad bad bad bulgarians look a bigger nation, when you have proven here that you cant distinguish a slav from makedonia from a slav from vladivostok?
Also note that those bad bad bad people saved our ASS in WWI, with TWO divisions.
My grandpa fought against the italians, in WWII in the albo front, in northern/southern Epiros. How could he know if any arbos/albos were in Julia division? What if those arbos did commit any bloody crimes back then? it would have been appointed to the Italians, not the arbos..
PS And the biggest hypocrisy of us all here, is that while the REAL butchers of our nations were Turks/German/Italians/UK/USA(in case of western balkans), today we keep blaming one another wearing t-shirts of national football teams of Italy, Germany, etc... We are all a bunch of idiot hypocrites.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 2:38:55 GMT -5
Anyway, nobody answered the following question:
Was the language of the poem ever spoken in todays greek part of makedonia and when?
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 5, 2009 2:51:40 GMT -5
basil, the greek and south Macedonians/south eastern(Veles) Macedonians speak a language close to Sofia's dialect (which is not clear "bulgarian" as you should have known by reading these threads, but actually with heavy similarities with Serb language, look at the yat line, Novi talks about). From the center of Macedonia and up north things get pretty more Serbian. Two greek slavs (one woman i know very well and layer as a professional), tells me that they understand better S/E slavo-makedonians and wetsern bulgarians, rather than Skopians from the capitol. So most probably your grandfather fought against ppls who spoke that dialect. maybe yes maybe not. I dont know and ufortunately.. its too late to ask him.. Again the same answer from me; maybe yes maybe no. How can somebody know? Its a hypothesis.. Thats the difference when we talk. I dont want to make some nation to look bigger or smaller. I told you, I like both nations the same. I just transfer sayings... ... and I doubt that my grandpa knew that today his saying would play a role since he never had in his mind that Bulgarians would be.. 2 countries and one of them would be "Macedonia".. There is no personal gain when I talk. I accept that as valid. Now what you accept from me to say..? When somebody scratches my back I should sctratch his too? Thats not fair when we speak about historical facts. In Asia Minor we did a big mistake. Is it fair today to say that we didnt because the enemy was the Turks who are the bad guys? That argument of yours is not very good... from a historical aspect. There is a HUGE difference between the war between Greeks and Italians and the wars between Greeks and Bulgarians. With Italians it was a war between 2 countries. Official armies and soldiers from all over Greece and Italy. It was an official war with canons, ships, submarines, airplanes, prisoners etc etc etc. With Bulgarians was 1000 worst. In the Macedonian Struggle and in WW2. In the Macedonian Struggle in 1904 there were no official military units. Just villagers either Macedonians or Bulgarians from Macedonia, forming units.. and killing eachother in every given chance. Village against village.. with every attrocity comes in your mind. It was a hell... not a war. To understand how personal these domestic fight was, the example comes from WW2. When Germans gave the authority to Bulgarians to capture east Macedonia and Serres, south Bulgarian troops came in my village.. and... listen that! the FIRST day of occupation they had a list with 20 names.... they call these names to come in the central square of the village... and the ones who went.. were executed immidiatelly! These villagers were sons!.. of Macedonian warrios during Macedonian Struggle! These south Bulgarian officers and soldiers were sons of Bulgarian comitatzides during the Macedonian Struggle! After 40 years.. they had a list!!! If that is not a personal war.. then what is it? After these attrocities in my village and other villages like in Drama... Germans asked Bulgarians to change the present South Bulgarian soldiers with North Bulgarians ones.. and then.. peace came in the villages and the occupation continued with less nerves for both sides. Later.. during the retreat of the German and ofcourse the Bulgarian army.. the gorillas from our villages were searching from house to house and from alley to alley... south Boulgarians to execute them immediately too! Some poor settlers payed the price since soldiers have left during the night. Pyrro.. with them it was not a war.. it was an everyday slaughter for every citizen of Macedonia. Now since I have notice you use the words "bad" and "good" for Macedonians and south Bulgarians... I really cannot say who is good and who is bad. The only thing I know is that all these fights happened around my home, my village, my city... and not around their home, their village, their city..... and that means something. We didnt attack... we got attacked. Thats the huge difference. So.. most propably.. yes.. we're the "good" ones. Now, during the fights.. I doubt somebody can use the word "good" or "bad" for that slaughter for any person who took part in it regardless what nationality he was.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 3:27:41 GMT -5
I use the terms "bad bad bad", "good good good" to denote the repetitions patterns as they appear in todays methods of propaganda (i,.e. newspapers, TV, etc..)
Basil well noted, everything you said mate. Your writing was cool. However, what you describe is the definition of civil conflict. Same thing happened in WWII with my grandma running from village to village with her three daughters to escape from EAM, which had a similar list, and we are talking about people from the next neighborhood in the same village, not some remote foreigners. My wife's father cant travel outside RS/SRB cause he is in some list, etc..... and the story goes on.
Well, all i am asking is : Why don't we favor the "SERBIAN" version of those people, which nevertheless has been 100% pro-greek throughout history? Why don't we mention the good parts that Macedonians did to Greece during WWI?
Just a side question Basil, if the local native greek makedons hated so much those Macedonians (and i am sure they did, as you say, i believe 100% was you said), how those SAME Macedonians escaped the greek makedonian anger during the Thesaloniki Front of WWI? As you know, the Serbian army retreated to Corfu, (one the most brave acts of all time in History - dont expect to learn about it from History Channel), and then by boats to Thesaloniki to fight the Germano-Bulgarians.....
IF THOSE Macedonians *WERE* ex-komitatzides, how did they escape the local anger, which would view them as the same komitatzides who were slaughtering greek people just 13 years ago? Isnt 13 years too short for the average balkanian memory? How did Greeks and Slavomakedonians fight in the same side in WWI?
WHY NOBODY TODAY DARES TO TALK ABOUT IT? ( i was muted by Arxilleas/Kastorianos many many times)
The divisions which took part in WWI, which gave us western Thrace were from Skoplje (Vardarska Divizija) and from Bitola (Bitoljska).
Also Basil, by the same logic, every day in Greece, we should slay each other in name of the lost relatives. My grand-grand-pa was killed by some local thieves in Giannena, who were doing business with EAM Ellas at the time. Should go out today and kill every communist in sight?
As you said, it was a personal war, and the nations, the Epirotans, the Skopians, the Bitolians DONT DESERVE to be dragged to war TODAY, because of a dirty, but small scale war which happened in 1904.
Now, what i heard about WWII, is that bulgarians were rapidly bulgarizing everything in their pass. Cemetaries, libraries, etc... What the SERBS DID NOT DO in Epiros in more than 400 years of CIVIL occupation (the Church remained always Greek), the Bulgarians would do to Makedonia in just a few months.
Its time to chose our friends and our policy USING OUR BRAIN. Calling those people "Bulgarians" will only make them more Makedonian.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Oct 5, 2009 12:06:36 GMT -5
First, very measured outlook by Basil.
Second it is interesting how similar behavior patterns were between the two sides as described by Basil.
Third, on the last note Pyrros made, these slavophone people (irregardless of what they felt before) will continue calling themselves as Macedonians (many being descended from Aegean Macedonia).
Greece should approach this from another viewpoint.
If Greece views slavophones in Aegean Macedonia as Greek (except obviously in language) then same approach should be for the people who are mostly derived from immigrants that left Aegean region.
Racially and culturally (Serb scientist from around one century ago Jovan Cvijic calls these slavophones Slavs lacking ethnic identity of Byzantine culture -- non baised outlook as he had nothing to gain and he even called the same south-eastern Serbians and western Bulgarians) they are not much different from Greeks from Aegean Macedonia.
Even a blind person that understand arithmetic will make a deduction that
1-local Slavs are surely not slavs by race (such as say White Russians mainly are),
2-surely Byzantine (or greek speaking 'Romans' in what was previously mainly Macedonian dominated Balkans fully Hellenize or already Hellenic) by culture (albeit with some Turkish elements but this is true for much of Balkans)
3-local Slavs are surely not original Bulgars by origin (irregardless of the fact whether these original Bulgars were originally Turkic, Persian or a cross between the two). Modern Bulgarian identity is of course separate from these early Bulgars or even medieval 'Bulgarians' who as others of that time viewed religion as primary means to identify.
4-local Slavs are not original Serbs by origin (as neither are majority of the Serbs themselves if we are talking of original Sarmatian Serboi). Modern Serbian identity is of course separate from these early Serboi or even medieval 'Serbians' who as others of that time viewed religion as primary means to identify.
5-are local slavs modern Serbians or modern Bulgarians. It appears not as neither was able to convert them towards their ethnic 'ideology' and neither one has an argument that is strong and logical enough to sustain their propaganda long enough.
6-local Slavs are local (=Greek) in culture, race, genetics and now even in name (carrying the greek name of Macedonians) but slavophone.
As they will not stop calling themselves anything else Greece is practically forced that in some time in the future assumes this position and takes whatever steps necessary towards re-Hellenization of this populace (I believe carefully planned propaganda is more then enough).
I see Greece as one with a clear position and lack of confusion versus the other side which has anything but clarity in their vision.
Their desire to be Macedonian is a Trojan horse that they are unaware of only Greece has not identified it as such... YET.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 5, 2009 13:24:49 GMT -5
"As they will not stop calling themselves anything else Greece is practically forced that in some time in the future assumes this position and takes whatever steps necessary towards re-Hellenization of this populace (I believe carefully planned propaganda is more then enough)."
That would mean occupation, enforcement of schools, etc... I wouldn't bet even 1 euro, that this is possible to happen to a nation with such a long Slav tradition.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 5, 2009 15:58:33 GMT -5
Pyrro that is again where the problem is; I cannot falsify a historical event, even if we accept that Serbs are better allies than Bulgarians today. It will be a lie to myself. I separate "present wants" and "historical facts". That is fair according to me. PS1. I know Bulgarian and Serbian history as far as it concerns Greece. I just cannot judge a historical fact based.. on the past or based on feelings from the past. I know that Bulgarians have killed Greeks and Serbians not.. but that is how things were back then. Human life was not so important in Balkans... I just dont keep bad things in my mind because I saw even my grandfather who was part of that slaughter.. not to keep bad things in his mind. How could I? He NEVER told me one thing full of hate for Bulgarians. In every story he was telling me.. always the south Bulgarians were the "enemies".. but I never saw hate in his face. War and slaugters was something like a natural procedure in his mind... Even when he told me about an incident with axes!..and a dead friend ... he told it so natural... like.. a "c'est la vie" concept! Tough years.. tough people.... Personally, today, I see them both as good neighbors of Greece and I feel a good neighbor for both of them too. Thats enough for me. PS2. I wonder why dont you see them like that? .. espesialy you... you dont have a reason as an Ipirotis.. Because what I see is hate from your side for Bulgarians... and that is not normal.. for an Ipiroti. You suffered nothing from Bulgarians. I doubt you ever seen a Bulgarian.. where this stems from? I can see them as a friendly nation.. I .. that have lost relatives... I that I have been told so many stories... I that I belong to a family of Makedonomachon.... and you dont?! Thats weird... Never mind.. its a long talking. Everybody has his own beliefs.. and everybody walks in his life with them. Ta leme...
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 5, 2009 16:09:37 GMT -5
Emperor AAdmin "Greece should approach this from another viewpoint" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Thats a theory.. that sometimes I thing is good and sometimes I thing is wrong. Its good for the obvious reasons.
But..
its bad for other reason. For example.. who wants brainwashed people in his country.. even if these brainswashed people are real Macedonians? (I believe many of them in the south near the borders really are..) Greece will go many years back until these people reach our standards of thinking/behaving/acting. Even West Germans have regreated for the union with East Germans...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 5, 2009 19:53:48 GMT -5
Interesting post of yours in page one. Did you notice the applaud from the Bulgarians?.....you need to remember that there was a Turkish backed Bulgarian Exarchate operating in Vardar, Nth Greece etc....to convert these people into submissive bulgars, hence why your grandfather only came across bulgars.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Oct 5, 2009 23:32:48 GMT -5
Basils grandpa didnt encountered Simple Bulgarians who spoke simple Bulgarian but they were into existence 8 YEARS BEFORE THE EXARCHATE (established 1870): The first known literary monument, influenced by Torlakian dialects is the Manuscript from Temska Monastery from 1762, in which its author, the Monk Kiril Zhivkovich from Pirot, considered his language as: "simple Bulgarian".
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 0:46:26 GMT -5
Greece will go many years back until these people reach our standards of thinking/behaving/acting. Even West Germans have regreated for the union with East Germans... Just a question Basil. Have you ever crossed the border? Entered Macedonia? Once in some roadworks in some bridge in Macedonia i once saw a traffic light with ... time counter! For me that was a sign o civilization, and something we could borrow if we didnt had such a brainwashed attitude against them. Also about, Berlin, East germany, now go and ask them, if they have nostalgija about the past. You know i mentioned my family suffered from EAM, so i should be a fierce anti-commie. Well I am not. I have opened my eyes with my traveling in the balkans. How many times have you been and in which countries? PS I see you still support full heartedly the "bulgarian" theory, while you apparently have never been in Northern Macedonia, nor did you answer my question of Bitoljska and Vardarska Divizije in WWI.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 0:48:44 GMT -5
Basils grandpa didnt encountered Simple Bulgarians who spoke simple Bulgarian but they were into existence 8 YEARS BEFORE THE EXARCHATE (established 1870): The first known literary monument, influenced by Torlakian dialects is the Manuscript from Temska Monastery from 1762, in which its author, the Monk Kiril Zhivkovich from Pirot, considered his language as: "simple Bulgarian". ha ha, he found it somewhere and repeats it like a papagaja!!! Gospodin Zivkovic was clearly a poor Serbian peasant under the threat of the gun, who didn't even have time to change his name into smth more Bulgarian sounding like "Zivkov"! (just like greek-vlah students in Peristeri were beaten to stop speaking Vlah and be good "ellhnopoula") facts are facts. The Bulgarian aggression in todays Makedonia and South Serbia is fully documented.
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