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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 6, 2009 1:26:06 GMT -5
"Basils grandpa didnt encountered Simple Bulgarians who spoke simple Bulgarian but they were into existence 8 YEARS BEFORE THE EXARCHATE (established 1870): The first known literary monument, influenced by Torlakian dialects is the Manuscript from Temska Monastery from 1762, in which its author, the Monk Kiril Zhivkovich from Pirot, considered his language as: "simple Bulgarian"."
Again Ioan, as pyrro said there were pressures. These misinformed serbs like the bulgarianised serb Pejcinovich, Vladimir the grammarian and even Miletich spoke of the wonderful B'lgari.
Your Jordan Ivanov said the following of a misinformed serb (Veljko Popovich):
In the year 1704, Veljko Popovich of Kratovo (a major centre for serbs in vardar) says that he was born "in Bulgarian lands, in the place known as Kratovo".
Then another serb (Nesho Markovich) in 1818, a merchant from Kratovo, printed in Budapest a calendar "for the convience of the Bulgarian people."
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 6, 2009 1:37:19 GMT -5
An example for Basil:
"During the Turkish regime," says Cvijich, "the name 'Bulgar' as applied to the raya spread beyond Bulgarian districts [and came to be applied] to serfs and peasants farming land on a tenant basis. The area controlled by this extremely oppressive regime extended to Skopje and beyond.....Applied, as it was, in this sense in the Vardar districts, the name 'Bulgar' began to penetrate as far as Kosovo (Southern Serbia), while one Russian traveler in the seventeenth century applies the name even to Serbian peasant farmers in the area of Sarajevo, in Bosnia. In the extreme west of the Balkan Peninsula, in Dalmatia (Croatia), the name 'Bulgar' signified ill breeding, and probably for this reason the inhabitants of these areas called their simple folk poems 'bugarshtice'.
The Bolgari of this forum will talk about the Mladinov brothers and their collection of Bolgarian folk songs from vardar, then why don't they claim dalmatia as theirs also....freaken Bulgari liers.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 6, 2009 1:49:11 GMT -5
Another example for you Basil, please don't view this as an attack on you, l just want to show you the reasons why these vardarians are known commonly as Bolgarians today:
There are many unsolved mysteries in the Balkans, some of which no doubt are abused by nationalists to spread confusion and cause tension. Take for example the dual meaning of the word “Vulgar”. Before nationalism became widespread in the Balkans, “Vulgar” was a word that described the lower class of people, a certain segment of the Byzantine and later of the Ottoman population in the Balkans. “Vulgar” is believed to be a derivative of the Latin word “Vulgaris” which roughly translates to “common” or “everyday”. With time “Vulgaris” evolved to “Vulgar” meanings “lacking of manners”, “uneducated”, “of low class”, “dirty” and so on. In the hands of the Koine speakers the word “Vulgar” became Βολγαροι. When transposed to the medieval languages Βολγαροι became Bolgars. In Koine there was in fact another Word, the “ethnic definition” of the Βονλγαροι or Boulgaroi (Bulgarians), a people who once built an empire in the Balkans. The word Βονλγαροι (Boulgaroi) is derived from the word Βονλγα (Voulga). Βονλγα is the Koine name of the river Volga where the Proto Bulgarians originated. When the written form of the Koine word “Βονλγαροι” was transposed to the modern languages, it became Bulgars. The close spelling and pronunciation of the two words “Βολγαροι” and “Βονλγαροι” in Koine became confusing, misleading and for the most part, indistinguishable to non-Koine speakers, particularly to foreigners who were not familiar with the Balkan cultures. Outsiders (non-Balkanites) who lacked knowledge of the meaning of the two words “Bolgar” and “Bulgar” used them interchangeably as if they were synonymous until the word “Bolgar” was eventually dropped in favour of the word Bulgar. During the 19th century after the formation of the new Balkan States, Bulgaria began to deliberately misuse the word “Bolgar” to mean “ethnic Bulgar”. By claiming all “Bolgars” in the Balkans to be “ethnic Bulgarians” it began to make claims on Macedonian territories under the guise that the peasant population of Macedonia was actually ethnically Bulgarian. Evidence of the widespread use of the word “Bolgar” can be found not just in Bulgaria and Macedonia but in other parts of the Balkans. The Russian traveler Simeon Lehatsi, who traveled through the Balkans in 1608 and visited Sarai, a region in Bosnia which exists to this day, commented that “the Bosnian population does not speak the Turkish language, it speaks Bolgarian”. From the Bosnians he learned that in Rumelia, outside of the larger towns, there were “80,000 Bolgarian villages which were of the Greek Orthodox faith”. He also says that many Bosnians [note he calls them Bosnians and not Bulgarians] because of the Harach [taxes in blood] changed their religion into Moslems. On the issue of languages spoken in Bosnia he says “all people in Bosnia speak Bolgarian”. What exactly did Simeon Lehatsi mean when he called the Bosnian rural population and their language “Bolgarian”? Did he mean “ethnic Bulgarian” or did he mean something else? You can ask the Bosnians if they feel as Bulgarians. And I can assure you they do not feel as Bulgarian exactly as Macedonians do not feel so. Bulgarian monk Paisiy Hilendarski, wrote in his Book “Istoriya Slavyanobolgarskaiya” (History of the Slavobolgarians) “why are you ashamed to call yourselves Bolgarian?” The answer he was usually receiving from the people was : “The Greeks [merchant class] are wiser and more cultured, whereas we the Bolgarians are simpleminded, unintelligent and have no refined words in our language.” Here one can see that even many Ethnic Bulgarians were confused by the two different but very similar words. They were ashamed to call them Bolgarians, or people with lower culture. The Bulgarian Monk also wrote: “I have witnessed many Bulgarians behave in this manner”. So if I may be allowed to say, we have no idea how many of these people were actually ethnic Bulgarians. It is impossible to tell. But what we can tell is that the word Bolgarian was understood as designatio of people of lower class.
Further evidence of the existence of the “Bolgar” class can be found in Serbian and Croatian epic folk songs called “Bulgarshtitsa” (Bulgarian folk songs). “Bugarshtitse” were most common from the 16th to the 18th century and could be found near the Adriatic Shores from Zadar to Perasta and Kotor. Similar folk songs have also been found to exist in Italy but in an earlier period. The oldest Serbian or Croatian “bulgarshtitsa” dating back to 1497, in the Neretva dialect (a region of Dalmatia), was found in southern Italy. From the evidence given above and given that nationalism and ethnic distinctions did not exist until much later, it is safe to assume that the word “Bolgar” alluded to a certain social class of people. In 1861 the Brothers Miladinovi published a collection of songs which they called “Bulgarian Folk Songs”. Like those originating in Serbia and Croatia this particular set of folk songs also originated outside of Bulgaria; in Macedonia. Like the “Bugarshtitse” which belonged not to the Bulgarians but to the Serbians and Croatians, this particular set of folk songs belonged to the Macedonians. Why then are the Bulgarians laying claim to the works of the Brothers Miladinovi belonging to the Macedonians and not to those belonging to the Serbians and Croatians? Why is the “common” class of people in Macedonia considered to be “ethnic Bulgarian” by the Bulgarian State and not those in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia? Could it be because Bulgaria has territorial claims on Macedonia?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 2:23:44 GMT -5
"What exactly did Simeon Lehatsi mean when he called the Bosnian rural population and their language “Bolgarian”? Did he mean “ethnic Bulgarian” or did he mean something else? You can ask the Bosnians if they feel as Bulgarians. And I can assure you they do not feel as Bulgarian exactly as Macedonians do not feel so. " NOVI! Dont do such tragic mistakes, and put ideas to the Bulgarians, ha ha, now we the Bosnian Serbs, apart from the Ustashe,the Mudjahedins, NATO/EU we will have to fight against the Bulgarians as well!! MAN! thats surreal! Now seriously, very nice Post Novi... Toponyms,names as evidence in balkans are brutalized by the most surreal ways: for example the slavo-phobes from Servia, Kozani claim : el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A3%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B2%CE%B9%CE%B1that Servia comes from the latin "Servo=guard" HA HA incredible violations of logic. The english page however, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servia,_Greece states explicitly its SERB ORIGIN. I Guess they are the same SERBS who founded GORDOSERVION in minor asia.
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Post by rusebg on Oct 6, 2009 2:28:25 GMT -5
We had two empires and Byzantines knew who they were fighting with, that including the area of today's Macedonia. That later repeated with Greece and evry war we had with them. It is attested in every source of them. What you write is totally irrelevant. Besides, you are an illiterate Serb wanna-be. Go and learn some Serbian and them come back. Out!
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 2:36:27 GMT -5
NOVI Note who called Serbs to settle in SERVIA: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servia,_Greece en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius (ruled from 610 - 641) Note that the Uknown Great Archont died before 680, so apparently HE lead Serbs *that* south. Also Note that all direct descendants of the Archont had plain Serbian names and surnames just like today. WOW! nuff said
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 6, 2009 3:44:04 GMT -5
Here is an example of the word Bulgarian. Its translated as Bulgarin in Bulgarian and Bugarin in Serbo-Croat.
In the vardarian and west bulgarian dialects vocalic l is replaced by u, particularly in those areas where Bulgarian comes into contact with Serbian, while the same phenomenon cannot be found in the east and south of the areas over which Bulgarian is spoken. "Both by its geographic extent and by its sporadic appearances, this u shows that we are here concerned with Serbbianisms. Indeed, in almost all dialects characterised by u (Bugarin) instead of l (Bulgarin), we find other traces of Serbian influence, as, for example, u for a. Particular mention should be made of the name bulgarin with all its variations, which one finds throughout almost the whole of vardaria (except, perhaps, some southern and southeastern districts) in the form of bugarin.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 5:14:05 GMT -5
Even a blind person that understand arithmetic will make a deduction that 1-local Slavs are surely not slavs by race (such as say White Russians mainly are), Until God Himself comes with an explicit checksum or other one way function that would map from various DNA measurements to a certain fingerprint and certify that *this* is the certificate of being slav, it would be impossible to say who is more slav than the other. Serbs, having retained a perfect slavic language by any aspect have every reason to bear the Slav flag. Lets face it, till after 1000 AD, LATIN was the official language of the Balkans. That would suggest, not only that the conservation of modern Greek and Slav is a sign of cultural power, but that there is great chance that many modern "Vlahs" were either Greeks or Slavs back then.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 6, 2009 11:50:47 GMT -5
Interesting post of yours in page one. Did you notice the applaud from the Bulgarians?.....you need to remember that there was a Turkish backed Bulgarian Exarchate operating in Vardar, Nth Greece etc....to convert these people into submissive bulgars, hence why your grandfather only came across bulgars. Yes I notice the applaud from the Bulgarians. Also I know that Bulgarians have dreams about Macedonia. Also I know what Turkish backed back then. What I want you to understand is that my goal is not to take the applaud from Bulgarians and the rejection from Serbians... or support their theory. I told you; I just transfer an old men's words. Is it my fault that I mention or believe them?
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 6, 2009 12:07:12 GMT -5
Greece will go many years back until these people reach our standards of thinking/behaving/acting. Even West Germans have regreated for the union with East Germans... Just a question Basil. Have you ever crossed the border? Entered Macedonia? Once in some roadworks in some bridge in Macedonia i once saw a traffic light with ... time counter! For me that was a sign o civilization, and something we could borrow if we didnt had such a brainwashed attitude against them. Also about, Berlin, East germany, now go and ask them, if they have nostalgija about the past. You know i mentioned my family suffered from EAM, so i should be a fierce anti-commie. Well I am not. I have opened my eyes with my traveling in the balkans. How many times have you been and in which countries? PS I see you still support full heartedly the "bulgarian" theory, while you apparently have never been in Northern Macedonia, nor did you answer my question of Bitoljska and Vardarska Divizije in WWI. I have been in Macedonia Pyrro when it was Yougoslavia. Its a really 3rd world country as far as it concerns what it appears to a visitor.. The entrance to Serbia was like an entrance to a different country. But, when I said backward in my previous post I didnt mean the land.. I meant the mentality/culture of the people. I cannot imagine Greeks being manipulated like that today. They have the mentality and the knowledge Greeks had 30 years ago... despite the fact they have access to internet and knowledge. PS. Albania is full of Mercedes. Why dont you see it as a sign of civilization and culture... since a traffic light with ... time counter was enough for you in Macedonia? Pyrro... even if they have tommorow spaceships for every citizen.. they dont have culture and... class Translate the following in english if you can.. because I cant; "Ta metaksota vrakia theloun kai metaksotous kolous" .. ;D Regarding Berlin.. you seem to be unlucky when you start a topic with me; My girlfriend is from W.Berlin.. and she told me that. She told me that almost all W.Berliners want to bring the wall back! ;D They hate E.Berliners and the reason is again the same; Huge cultural differences. E.Berliners are backward snicky villagers... according to them ofcourse. I was there last November... and you can understand even with your own eyes who is from East and who is from West Berlin. Its like the red-necks in US. You can understand who is hilly-billy and who is not just with a glance..
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Post by ljubotan on Oct 6, 2009 15:36:53 GMT -5
I can only speak for NW Vardar, and that is almost 100% of the Slavs are pro Serbia and more anti Bulgarian. I know this a fact for Tetovo, hence many families migrated to Tetovo/Sar area during the mid 13th centuries under King Milutin, again around 18th and 19th centuries during Kosovo exodus and Austro/Turkish(Montenegro villages) wars and then finally during the Balkan Wars/WW1(Serbian soldiers from Prizren area settled in Tetovo villages).
I'm guessing also some of the Slavs pre Serb element (11th, 12 century) may have come via Bulgarian expansion that encompassed all of Kosovo in 10th century; however, there were already Serb elements in Kosovo as well then. Hard to say since 1000yrs ago the language between Serbs/Bulgarians were much similar and the cases (per people on this forum) were lost in Bulgaria/Vard in the middle centuries (which by the way I still don't understand how?).
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Post by rusebg on Oct 6, 2009 15:58:06 GMT -5
I aplauded you because it was a fair post. My grandfather took part in this war too. He was dislocated in Skopje, despite being from Northern Bulgaria. He told me stories as well, especially about giving shelter after WWII to Greeks who were persecuted and looked for shelter in Bulgaria. Trust me, he did the impossible to protect these people and he still keeps some letters from Greeks, I think it won't be a bad idea to scan and post them some day.
As ior Pyrros and Novi...one should avoid talking to mentally handicapped people. Therefore, I stop talking to the lunatic Pyrro and the imbecile Novi.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 6, 2009 19:24:49 GMT -5
^ Do you have a source to back your claims?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 6, 2009 19:53:04 GMT -5
"Yes I notice the applaud from the Bulgarians. Also I know that Bulgarians have dreams about Macedonia. Also I know what Turkish backed back then. What I want you to understand is that my goal is not to take the applaud from Bulgarians and the rejection from Serbians... or support their theory. I told you; I just transfer an old men's words. Is it my fault that I mention or believe them?"
Your alright man, l understand where your coming from. The problem here is the Bulgarian aggressive stance on east serbia, vardaria and maybe greece.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2009 23:28:18 GMT -5
Just a question Basil. Have you ever crossed the border? Entered Macedonia? Once in some roadworks in some bridge in Macedonia i once saw a traffic light with ... time counter! For me that was a sign o civilization, and something we could borrow if we didnt had such a brainwashed attitude against them. Also about, Berlin, East germany, now go and ask them, if they have nostalgija about the past. You know i mentioned my family suffered from EAM, so i should be a fierce anti-commie. Well I am not. I have opened my eyes with my traveling in the balkans. How many times have you been and in which countries? PS I see you still support full heartedly the "bulgarian" theory, while you apparently have never been in Northern Macedonia, nor did you answer my question of Bitoljska and Vardarska Divizije in WWI. I have been in Macedonia Pyrro when it was Yougoslavia. Its a really 3rd world country as far as it concerns what it appears to a visitor.. The entrance to Serbia was like an entrance to a different country. But, when I said backward in my previous post I didnt mean the land.. I meant the mentality/culture of the people. I cannot imagine Greeks being manipulated like that today. They have the mentality and the knowledge Greeks had 30 years ago... despite the fact they have access to internet and knowledge. PS. Albania is full of Mercedes. Why dont you see it as a sign of civilization and culture... since a traffic light with ... time counter was enough for you in Macedonia? Pyrro... even if they have tommorow spaceships for every citizen.. they dont have culture and... class Translate the following in english if you can.. because I cant; "Ta metaksota vrakia theloun kai metaksotous kolous" .. ;D Regarding Berlin.. you seem to be unlucky when you start a topic with me; My girlfriend is from W.Berlin.. and she told me that. She told me that almost all W.Berliners want to bring the wall back! ;D They hate E.Berliners and the reason is again the same; Huge cultural differences. E.Berliners are backward snicky villagers... according to them ofcourse. I was there last November... and you can understand even with your own eyes who is from East and who is from West Berlin. Its like the red-necks in US. You can understand who is hilly-billy and who is not just with a glance.. Back in Yugoslav years, how was exactly the entrance to Serbia, since it was the same country? Does the *HUGE* cultural production of Macedonia say smth to you? The fact that they produced a guitarist (Stefanovski) ages ahead of Steve Vai, Malmsteen,etc IN 1980? The fact that they even had their own *school* of dark wave/Gothic CHRISTIAN metal back in ex-yu? Also, a traffic light with counter, MADE IN YU, is a sign of civilization, is sign of 10, 10000 100000 people sitting down and thinking of way to better manage traffic in cases of roadworks... So, FIRST is a sign of MENTALITY, and second of technology. Technology for them is just a necessity, whereas for albs, or even us, it is a luxury, you see the difference basil? Thats why we haven;t produced any technology for 2,000 years. Because west gives this to us, free, and we take it without further questions. WE STOPPED thinking about real production, whereas even in Skoplje they went through the full path of Enlightenment/Industrial Revolution/Romantism ... On the other hand a mercedes in albania is a sign .... of stolen car from Italy/Germany, with some technology which the albos will never get. All Yugoslavs would talk about the rich soul of the (slav) makedonians. Basil, admit it, even Macedonia, due to its participation in ex-YU is YEARS ahead of US in mental development. All else is fanfare, + when you was in Macedonia you were like 8-18 years old or smth? how could know anything? I was 14 (in 1983) when i passed through Yugoslavia by bus, and i didn't notice (except the Cyrillic writings) any difference between Greece and Macedonia regarding land, etc... Serbia today looks prettier but its richer as well. My parents, this summer, didn't notice anything bad in Macedonia, as a matter of fact they found it pretty much like Greece. Oh, and the behavior of the Officers at the two borders of Macedonia was so kind and warm that my parents noticed that as well. After our trip, my Dad who was a classic greek reading emetic anti-slav papers like "To Vima" or "ta Nea", stopped talking about communism, when in Brcko/Novi Sad/Nis everyone was talking how .... the good old years were much better. That almost was the final nail on my dad's anti-communist sentiment. My Dad, no matter how kind and good he is, (and the Bosnians noticed that and paid him back with more kindness and hospitality), he was a pure product of "Lamprakis"-Publications, just like many many many greeks who only read newspapers (garbage). You and him Basil i think had the same brains, (although i find my dad more clever and flexible than you), now i dont think he will buy any more anti-Macedonia paranoia from anyone. About your GF, i saw a documentary and the eastern berliners, not only wanted the wall back but they could not even support the national team of germany, (whereas many greeks today have no problem to wear the said t-shirt). Macedonia is a CIVILIZED COUNTRY, and ONLY by comprehending this fact will we go further. THIS IS A PREREQUISITE FOR ANY TA:LKS/SOLUTION. If we go as the west tells us (hate, pretend that we are better, and all other BS which you and the rest of "Lamprakis AE" ooops other "free thinkers" of Greece, have kept writing here), there will be simply a war... Or to put it otherwise, BASIL, THIS IS HOW THEY DESIGN WARS.... I heard a lot of people talking about tanks in Skoplje.... What will happen if we make this war Basil? Can we handle it? If in 30-50 years a new Yugoslavia is built, how are we gonna live all together? Are we gonna be depending heavily on the west (just like Albania-Kosovo) for the next 100 years?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 7, 2009 2:10:25 GMT -5
And one prediction of mine, since you mentioned Germany: When Germany is chopped in 10 pieces, or even in half, your "Makedonian" problem will cease to exist.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 7, 2009 6:22:01 GMT -5
^ when the usa is eventually split into 50 states, part of global terrorism will end. Then we can properly focus on islamic terrorism.
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Post by macmako on Oct 7, 2009 8:10:46 GMT -5
The USA is already split into 46 states and 4 commonwealths (Virginia, Massachusetts, Kentucky and Pennsylvania). Each having its own constitutions and legislatures. They each have a mutual understanding with each other and required to give full faith and credit to each other's acts of legislatures and courts.
They are all separate, yet bonded together, and breaking that bond will never happen. Never.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 7, 2009 9:40:48 GMT -5
Basil, forget everything i said:
Where does the habbit of drivers stopping in front of pedestrian's zebra crossings happen more frequently, according to you perception?
Skoplje or Thesaloniki? Bitola or Florina? Veles or Kozani?
just asking.
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Rhezus
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Post by Rhezus on Oct 7, 2009 13:16:16 GMT -5
That confusing thing about Bolgar/Bulgar will disapear. It's a misleading name, which took hundreds of years for the locals to accept! Its acceptance was even done by force, by some "glorious" proto bolgars. Only if we put the real name back to our lands, we will solve the confusing thing. Thracia, known here from time immemoria, is the appropriate and ultimate solution!
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