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Post by leshte on May 30, 2009 13:52:34 GMT -5
I don't know it Kanaris. What's the reason?
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 14:04:24 GMT -5
There only ONE defining reason why Turkey is helping you...and you know it very well. I wouldnt disagree... but your point is?
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on May 30, 2009 16:34:37 GMT -5
I don't know either.... Tell us ignorant people why Turkey is helping you?
Whatsamatter........ cat caught your tongues.... ?
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Post by leshte on May 30, 2009 17:36:54 GMT -5
I have many reasons why, I just don't know which one you are talking about.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
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Post by Kanaris on May 30, 2009 18:32:45 GMT -5
List them and I will tick them off.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 18:50:01 GMT -5
You are selling off yourselves to Turkey's broken dreams of an imperialistic realm. They restore your mosques and bridges on their own account since this makes them getting horny...they think they are preserving sth valuable...and you give them the feeling that they are needed. They start feeling responsible for you...and they like that. But then again...I dont know if the supposed modern and especially self-confident and autochthonous Albania with its Albanianism can be compatible with such a capture...
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 18:58:39 GMT -5
Yea, when Greece restores churches in Albania its preserving history, when Turkey restored mosques its preserving empire.
How about this: we feel close to one another... period. Nothing to do with they being responsible for us. Its simply through a kinship feeling shared by two people with close historical links. They feel close to us and as such they have helped us. Just like you guys helped Serbs slaughter people in Srebrenica.
PS: Albanianism was not initially irredentist. It was first sponsored by men who had no intention of breaking away completely from the ottoman realm. so I dont see how touting Albanianism will work here.
Arguing with your hypocritical and one-dimensional mindset is getting tiresome. Get some better things to do than to bust our balls because you feel we are "ungrateful" for all the racism, hatred and difficulties out people unfortunately experience in your racist country. Frankly, it would be fun if this forum wasnt fukin flooding with your peoples nauseatingly repetitive posts. See us how you want to, Im not interested in the least.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 19:11:08 GMT -5
You get me wrong.
I dont think Greece is preserving history either. Where did I say that? On the other hand Greece has more reasons to interefere than Turkey since there is a Greek minority in southern Albania. Now if we restored orthodox churches in Tirana it would be sth else.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 19:13:46 GMT -5
Nasty but you are always the first one to give an answer...its a forum...I dont think you would prefer it from others if we werent here.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 19:15:58 GMT -5
There is a giant Orthodox church in the center of Tirana today... who do you think donated Janullatos the money to do it?
And it doesnt matter, minority or not, they are Albania's issue. Greece, by sponsoring anything, is putting its nose on Alb business in the same way Turkey is. Difference is we are less concerned with the theirs then with yours...
Minority or not, when Greece restores a church, attacks Albania for not restoring church property or does anything else of the such, it is doing just what Turkey is: taking interest in what they value. Those mosques are part of Ottoman heritage, something that the Turks feel significant amount of pride in and claim to. Just like you Greeks with your Byzantine relics.
I like talking to the Albs in this forum... more so than other ones. Yea, the controversy can be interesting, but it has reached a breaking point now when you, Canaris or the utter pompous ass Basil feel the need to intrude upon every single topic and turn into some Greek v. Alb fight. When every Albanian topic is filled with atleast one "TurkAlbanian" per page...
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Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 19:27:26 GMT -5
Thats something else...I dont see a problem with that (really not and Im quite objective on that)...Giannoulatos is the head of the albanian church. So this church is built by an albanian institution first of all. Besides I dont know how an orthodox church should harm your country...dont mistake your radical muslim anti-christian attitude with Greek interference.
I dont think Im appearing here as an instigator...where did I do so? Im just critical as Im critical with the Greek issues. If you dont like to comment my posts...simply refrain from doing it. And its surely not my intention to start greek-albo fights in here since Im fed up with them as well...
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 19:30:16 GMT -5
Not being pro-Christian doesnt mean being radical Muslim.
Then you should see no problem with Turkey helping Albania restore mosques that were left to rot during the long communist stretch.
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Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 19:44:50 GMT -5
so you call your attitude to Christianity "not pro-Christian"...means...you are pretty neutral on this. Then explain me why you are celebrating the destruction of churches and then tell me again how else than by hatred towards Christianity you explain your resentments for the Tirana church. Either you are fooling me...or yourself...or both of us.
As I said...Im just critical. But not in a crooked way. Im honest with you. I say what I would say to Greeks as well if they were in this position. But sth else...I think you have to decide...either both Greeks and Turks want to help...or both have ulterior motives....
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 19:52:14 GMT -5
Im not going to act like Im somehow even. With Greece, I simply destrust your state and want its influence on my country dead... as Ngadho has once said, I would love nothing more than for Greece to make kick out all Alb immigrants and for Albs to build a giant wall around the border like the one Americans build across theirs with Mexico. I promote for Turkey to restore, because I trust them, and i cant think of any "ulterior" motives since we are already allies and since we look upon each other favorably and since many of those mosques were built by Ottomans of Albanian origin and thus became important symbols of a community.
With Greece, I feel like we are letting an enemy within the gates unattended. I dislike Orthodox Christianity as I associate it with Greek and Serb institutions and would like for it to be cleaned out of Albania (with our people becoming at least Uniate). I would like for the church in Tirana to be demolished because, truth be told, whenever I see an Orthodox church, I tend to become angry... Just as a Greek does when he sees some mosque in his land (like that of Ali Pasha in Epirus).
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Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 20:03:30 GMT -5
See...thats not the way a nation can work...these orthodox albanians' ancestors....have once prayed with your ancestors in churches. They represent the oldest albanian religion...how shall your nation be intact and come to terms with itself if it is oppressing a part of its own people? You have to get that...just because they are a minority within the albanian people it doesnt mean they have to give up their religion because it reminds you of others...thirds....seems that religion plays a way more important role for you than you want to admit.
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Post by L0gjICK on May 30, 2009 21:02:49 GMT -5
I just want to address this Melty, even in the FYROM, where Albanians are known for being conservative Muslims, there is no "Turkish brotherhood". In fact, being called a Turk is still considered an insult and most Turks living in FYROM are pro-Yugoslavian and are indifferent towards Albanians. At times we are even at bad terms with them. You see the Turks in Macedonia view us as nationalists and a threat to the Macedonian state. Seriously you would be surprised how many Turks in Macedonia sing along to Yugoslavian songs and fly the Yugoslavian flags during weddings.
On a grander scale, there is a decent view of Turks (from Turkey), but that this is only due to the fact that most of our other neighbors dislike us, but through the Turks, we find a relationship that isn't based on hate and we do find a common denominator (religion) with them. With our other neighbors, we do not find any other similarity. Whether it be religion (I'm speaking for the majority, I do realize we have Christian Albanians) and linguistically.
Basically, politically we are on a good terms, socially is another story.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 21:12:38 GMT -5
Logic, a friend of mine is Turkish from the village of Rostuse in Macedonia, near the Alb border. She goes to Tetova often because her family had strong links to that city. She has told me herself how Albanians from Macedonia view her and accommodate her. She herself doesnt have very positive views of Albs, particularly because many try and push her into believing that she is not of real Turkish origin. She has traveled a lot in Sweden and Norway and met groups of Ilirida Albs there and they almost always say "oh your Turkish!" and the follow with either by speaking in Turkish, which many know some of, or they openly tell her that they are Albs and Muslims. My friend recently traveled to NYC, he met a Macedonia Alb working as a janitor on the empire state building. The man immediately began speaking in Turkish.
I know we use the ethnicities of others as an insult often. They have done so with us "Arnavut damar" is not a positive expression, it makes the Alb appear as a savage, a murder and Bosnians often insulted each other with "shiptar" as well, a friend of mine told me this. But still, these are not so significant.
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Post by L0gjICK on May 30, 2009 21:31:08 GMT -5
In a Western Country, I can see it happening. You go to a foreign country and if you find someone that is Turkish you might show a positive feeling towards them since they bring a sense of familiarity to a foreign land. I've done the same towards Bosnians in the U.S. ,however, the Albanians in Macedonia would not show the same feelings to a Bosnian in Macedonia. In fact, we don't feel any closeness towards Bosnians in Macedonian either.
But like I said, the Turks in Macedonia and the Albanians have quite different mentalities. One example would be shown by Flying of flags during weddings. During Albanian weddings you will find an Albanian flag and maybe some American flag, rarely you will ever fly a Macedonian flag (unless it was ordered by policeman.) Turks on the other hand will fly the Turkish, Macedonian and sometimes Yugoslavian. Quite different attitudes. One feels they can integrate into Macedonian society, the other does not.
I've even heard stories the UCK would tell Turkish volunteers to go home when they would try to enlist.
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Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 21:37:13 GMT -5
See...thats not the way a nation can work...these orthodox albanians' ancestors....have once prayed with your ancestors in churches. They represent the oldest albanian religion...how shall your nation be intact and come to terms with itself if it is oppressing a part of its own people? You have to get that...just because they are a minority within the albanian people it doesnt mean they have to give up their religion because it reminds you of others...thirds....seems that religion plays a way more important role for you than you want to admit. 1. My family ancestry begins with any certainty in the 19th century, around 1830-40... the first name is Muslim. Meaning my family, my common history is as a Bektashi Muslim Albanian. Meaning as far as I know, I have no Christian ancestors from my linear line, your argument is moot (English, not Alb meaning). 2. Legitimacy in age is not valid... its actually stupid and antiquated. It doesnt matter what came first, the most significant part of Albanian history (and most Balkan history in general) is the last 100-150 years, which is most relevant to us as it is the period we can trace ourselves to with utmost certainty. Anything further back is useless since you are in many ways leaving history that the peasants were aware of. Christianity has no more legitimacy than Islam in Albania. Because it was there for "longer", what, does it mean that we should pamper it? Ignore the suffering those of that faith brought us? Certainly not. 3. I dont care about faith, at all. If an Alb told me he plans to convert from Islam to Catholicism, Protestantism or, hell, even Judaism... I would question how in the fuk he is so religious as to undergo ritual. My beef is purely with Orthodox Christianity. It has brought Albanians immeasurable dolor. It is a faith I cannot in anyway see eye to eye with. Which, the Prizrenliler? Ive heard that Albs didnt like them because they wouldnt join the KLA? I have heard similar to what you wrote above as well. I think part of the reason why there was tension was because it was sort of fostered by the Yugoslav govt. People lived close and had opposed interest. In Kosova, Albs felt, and I think still do, that they were being marginalized from their majority position by the bigger power and felt annoyed that small and insignificant minorities were so overrepresented. In Macedonia there was the same sort of feeling
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Post by SKORIC on May 31, 2009 1:27:57 GMT -5
Skoric wrote, By that premise, we can conclude that what the Ustasha did to your kinsmen in Jasenovac wasn't a big deal either, since concentration camps were "trendy" back in those days. "Trendy" for crazy fascist governments sure. Not for everyone though. The holocaust and the mini holocaust in Croatia are another thing all together. Even the nazi's looked at jasenovac in shock. There is a difference with killings of civilians during a war and wiping out an entire race altogether, Donald. That is why when people think of WW2 they think of the holocaust while when people think about WW1 they dont focus on these types of horrors against civilians even if it happened alot.
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