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Post by Niklianos on Jan 2, 2008 19:14:14 GMT -5
Dialects are differences in one language. A dialect is not a language in itself. My father travels extensively throughout Greece. I asked him if he ever had difficulties in understanding any Greeks from anywhere in Greece. He looked at me in astonishment and said that they all speak Greek so why should I not understand them? I agree. Every Greek going to any place in Greece will understand the Greek spoken. Any Greek outside of Greece will understand another speaking Greek. The dialects of Greek are all understandable, even Pontiaka. Are you saying that Pontiaka is easily understood by the non-Pontian? I speak Greek, my mother speaks fluent Greek and we can only make out every 3rd or 4th word. Now when it is written down the percentage of intelligibility increases.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 2, 2008 22:44:01 GMT -5
Niklianos, according to the material: Now tell me this "huge" distance between Macedons and other Greeks and also look the distance between: Knoss-Other Greek polis, Sparta-Other Greek polis etc! Also, if read carefully the material, there something to to be considered (or maybe is written latter but I didn't go 'till the end) 1. Here is not written that the dialect is created NOT only by the great distance rather than the CONTACT with another language(s) "and gradually decreasing in mutual intelligibility as the distances become greater".
Here they might have added (when the contact with "mother tongue" loses.
In our case: Macedons and Greeks were not distant and the contacts with Greeks were never lost. Macedons were isolated from the rest of Greeks! But how true is it?! Weren't there Greek merchants? Weren't Philip and Alexander educated by the most famous Greek philosophers?In general, the isolation sometimes helps to perserve and keep the language (eventhough dialect-yet intelligible and "un-touched", un-influenced by other languages around). ... "and gradually decreasing in mutual intelligibility as the distances become greater..." Macedons didn't gradually increased in distance from Greeks!!!! Actually they went closer!!! And they yet spoke another language, so un-intelligible for Greeks, as an interpreter was needed. After some time, they WERE even closer to Greeks, and by that time they spoke the Greek dialect and wrote the Greek language!!?
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Post by grksdied4you on Jan 2, 2008 23:09:19 GMT -5
Niklianos,
I will let you destroy Teuta. She is to easy.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 3, 2008 0:31:34 GMT -5
grksdied4you, ...yes, let the others "destroy" me!!!
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Post by greekslav on Jan 3, 2008 0:54:17 GMT -5
The Greek spoken on mainland Greece and by Pontians, who originated in Asia Minor, have a standard language, and that is Greek. Pontiaka is a dialect of Greek and because the distance between the Pontians and the mainland Greeks were great, and the ancient quality of Pontiaka is a bit different than what the mainland Greeks spoke, Pontiaka is now considered a dialect of Greek. Yes, standard Greek and Pontiaka are understandable if each would listen carefully to the other. That is all that is required.
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Post by grksdied4you on Jan 3, 2008 1:03:24 GMT -5
Strategos Ephialtes,
No, I cannot understand Pontian dialect for chit.
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Post by grksdied4you on Jan 3, 2008 1:03:43 GMT -5
But I am sure you understand Bulgarian right?
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Post by greekslav on Jan 3, 2008 1:28:14 GMT -5
Hi Teuta
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 3, 2008 13:08:53 GMT -5
But I am sure you understand Bulgarian right? He should if he is "Macedonian". When Macaronian minister visits Bulgaria there is no translation on the news. Cause there is no need for it. We could understand him perfectly. After 60 years of hard Serbian influence, it is still the same language. Though officially it is a different one
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 3, 2008 14:12:03 GMT -5
Ioan..that is a beautiful church.....Do you know what Pantocratis means.....?
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Post by Niklianos on Jan 3, 2008 14:58:48 GMT -5
Niklianos, according to the material: Now tell me this "huge" distance between Macedons and other Greeks and also look the distance between: Knoss-Other Greek polis, Sparta-Other Greek polis etc! Also, if read carefully the material, there something to to be considered (or maybe is written latter but I didn't go 'till the end) 1. Here is not written that the dialect is created NOT only by the great distance rather than the CONTACT with another language(s) "and gradually decreasing in mutual intelligibility as the distances become greater".
Here they might have added (when the contact with "mother tongue" loses.
In our case: Macedons and Greeks were not distant and the contacts with Greeks were never lost. Macedons were isolated from the rest of Greeks! But how true is it?! Weren't there Greek merchants? Weren't Philip and Alexander educated by the most famous Greek philosophers?In general, the isolation sometimes helps to perserve and keep the language (eventhough dialect-yet intelligible and "un-touched", un-influenced by other languages around). ... "and gradually decreasing in mutual intelligibility as the distances become greater..." Macedons didn't gradually increased in distance from Greeks!!!! Actually they went closer!!! And they yet spoke another language, so un-intelligible for Greeks, as an interpreter was needed. After some time, they WERE even closer to Greeks, and by that time they spoke the Greek dialect and wrote the Greek language!!?
As your #1 above states " 1. Here is not written that the dialect is created NOT only by the great distance rather than the CONTACT with another language(s)" The other City-State had that contact due to war, close proximity and trade Philosophical writings, poetry, etc(the last ones used specific dialects) . The Macedonians as I have stated before remained isolated due to the terrain. Furthermore I have already mentioned that the only Macedons who had contact with other Greeks were the Nobility, artisans and tradesmen. The COMMON everyday citizen DID NOT. These were the men who made up the vast majority of the Macedonian military. Their language due to being semi-nomadic pasturalist who lived in the mountains had NO CONTACT with other Greeks. Their dialect was NEVER written down nor formalized like the other Greeks. I am certain that if they had a written language, then if written, it would be understandable by other Greeks, but it was not. So when Alexander spoke to his men in 'Makedonisti' he was using their isolated dialect not any formalized Greek. You must try to think of the Greek world as it was then and not how our world is today. Geographical distances is all a matter of perspective. In the time when no telephones, internet, radio and so on did not exist and most people walked around on foot, 20 miles was A LONG WAY. Add to that the extreme terrain of the area and it becomes even further. It could take upward of 3-4 days to travel 20 miles at the time, unlike today. "Actually they went closer!!! And they yet spoke another language, so un-intelligible for Greeks, as an interpreter was needed. After some time, they WERE even closer to Greeks, and by that time they spoke the Greek dialect and wrote the Greek language!! ? " You are supporting my case with this statement. ;D The more the Macedonians became involved with Greek affairs and the more time they spent around other Greeks the more their spoken dialect was affected. They went from speaking an isolated, archaic form of Greek to the Nobles adopting Attic Greek, to everyone speaking Koine Greek. It was the nobles who adopted Attic Greek who were probably the first to write down the Macedonian dialect. Refering to a previous post of yours you stated that there is no written evidence of what the Macedonians spoke. But you are incorrect. There are 3 inscriptions that support the Greek side, one of them being the Pella Katadesmos. The other two I will look up and post or if someone has them handy they may post them. Furthermore there are 1000's of grave stelae and 1000's of inscriptions written on stone that also support the Macedonians speaking Greek. The only 'controversy' comes with wether or not the "Mother-Tongue" of the Ancient Macedonians was a form of Greek, a language closely related to Greek or something other than Greek. Now the first two both support the Greek side and there is a lot of evidence to support them, but the 3rd has little or no support. Besides the need for a translator and the term "Makedonisti" there is absolutely no support for their language being something other than Greek. A language closely related to Greek is perfectly feasible also considering the Ancient Macedonians encompass an area it was believed the Dorians originated from. Since Greek 4000+ years ago was in it's developmental stages then it would make perfect sense that the Ancient Macedonians spoke the mother language Greek evolved from.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jan 3, 2008 23:20:43 GMT -5
Ioan..that is a beautiful church.....Do you know what Pantocratis means.....? Hey yeah its a very beautiful church! It means Allmighty in Greek.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Jan 3, 2008 23:49:02 GMT -5
I stated that as to show that when Macedons started getting in contact with Greeks, adopted Greek language! Before that...(First millenium) they spoke their language! So, these were the men who perserved the real Macedon language because were not in contact with Greeks! (The soldiers) As I told you: FUSSION and not DIFUSSION. If Macedons were Greeks and spoke Greek since the beginning, they would have continued to speak Greek (intelligible)....in reality is the contrary: they didn't speak Greek but another language (inintelligible) ; thus in contact with Greeks they started speaking Greek! Because if they spoke Greek since the beginning then why should we assume that Macedons WERE NOT in contact with Greeks since the beginning? If they spoke Greek, they were staying together with Greeks...so they were in contact with Greeks... ...as a matter of fact, I am thinking that Greeks and Macedons had been living together for more than 4000 years...during all that period, is impossible those people not to have been in contact with each-other!!! No matter how much isolated, no matter how distant, is impossible Macedons to have transformed their mother tongue in an intellgible thing were they speaking Greek....by the way...look how distant and isolated are some tribes in Africa or Asia, where was that? And yet, those people claim Alexander was there and still speak intelligible Greek!!! The archeological evidences, including Pella Katadesmos and other coins and/or inscriptions o the tombs dates back no more than 500-600 BC; time when Macedons WROTE the Greek language because of the CONTACT! Pella Katadesmos is obvious that is written by an educated woman who had studied the art of writing in Greek! So she is a noble, eventhough some scholars say she wasn't because of the way she expresses some words! But that's due to the DIALECT! There are three theories of interpretations as to where Macedon belongs 1 an Indo-European language which is a close cousin to Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet and I. I. Russu or part of an encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959). 2 an "Illyrian" dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987). 3 a Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek , suggested by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) and O. Masson (1996). a northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906). a Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983). Another text that has been quoted as evidence is a passage from Livy (lived 59 BC-14 AD) in his Ab urbe condita (31.29). Describing political negotiations between Macedonians and Aetolians in the late 3rd century BC, Livy has a Macedonian ambassador argue that Aetolians and Macedonians were "men of the same language".[15] This has been interpreted as referring to their common North-West Greek speech (as opposed to Attic Koiné).
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 4, 2008 0:03:45 GMT -5
It means Creator of All....
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 11, 2008 5:34:07 GMT -5
Just to let you know Albhoney, you've been nominated for this years "Best one-liners, funny gems ETC;" the winner will be announced at the end of this year Click herePsttttt Click here Macedonia used by the official Greek administration in the greatest annual event of Thessalonike and this happens since...1926.That's not all, we have museums and Universities using that name during or before the 60's ? and onwards and many more. Cheers.
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