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Post by vinjak on Mar 21, 2010 20:23:38 GMT -5
Dutch officials have rejected a retired US general's claim that its forces failed at Srebrenica because of poor morale over openly gay soldiers. A defence ministry spokesman dismissed as "complete nonsense" the remarks by John Sheehan, a former Nato commander. Gen Sheehan had been speaking at a US Senate hearing on allowing gay people to serve openly in the US military. He said Dutch leaders had told him that the presence of gay soldiers had contributed to the Bosnian massacre. Srebrenica was a UN safe haven under the protection of Dutch peacekeepers when, in 1995, Bosnian Serb forces overran the town, killing some 8,000 Muslim men and boys. Gen Sheehan said the former chief of staff of the Dutch army had told him that the presence of openly gay soldiers in the Dutch peacekeeping force were seen as "part of the problem" which contributed to the fall of Srebrenica. He argued that since the end of the Cold War, European militaries had changed and he concluded "there was no longer a need for an active combat capability". 'Totally off-target' This "socialisation" process, Gen Sheehan said, "included open homosexuality" and led to "a focus on peacekeeping operations because they did not believe the Germans were going to attack again or the Soviets were coming back". It is astonishing that a man of his stature can utter such complete nonsense," Dutch defence ministry spokesman Roger van de Wetering said in response. "The Srebrenica massacre and the involvement of UN soldiers was extensively investigated by the Netherlands, international organisations and the United Nations. "Never was there in any way concluded that the sexual orientation of soldiers played a role." The Dutch ambassador to the US, Renee Jones-Bos, added in a statement on the embassy's website that she "couldn't disagree more" with the claims by the former general, who retired from the military in 1997. In the US Senate itself, Senator Carl Levin, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, told Gen Sheehan he was "totally off-target". Several countries - including Britain, Canada, Australia and Israel - allow openly gay people to serve in the armed services. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8575717.stm
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Post by manijak on Mar 21, 2010 22:33:23 GMT -5
This guy is a moron. Americans are in the process of looking at lifting this "dont ask, dont tell" policy, and all the top military people ware saying, "its time to lift this and allow gays to serve openly", and now the republicans get this douchebag to come up with this bs theories because its looking very likely.
Instead, the stories should be more concentrated on gay people losing their military jobs because it comes out that they are gay and they lose their careers and lifes work. People that are very good at their job, top of their job. And that is what they should judge.
Like this fighter pilot who has gotten tons of air medals for his work and got fired 18yrs in after it was found out he was gay.
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Post by manijak on Mar 21, 2010 22:36:46 GMT -5
And here is a nice 60min video, its 5 military vets (who are gay) and their experiences and why this policy should be lifted:
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Post by bob1389 on Mar 22, 2010 5:34:05 GMT -5
I've always suspected as much but finally someone has come out and said it.
Gays should stick to what their good at - making parades and bitching about equality.
Leave the battlefield for the big boys.
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Post by hellboy87 on Mar 22, 2010 8:37:36 GMT -5
vat???^^^
Leave the battle for the big boys?
Then I guess you are against women in the military too
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Post by bob1389 on Mar 22, 2010 8:40:34 GMT -5
No, nothing against women.
Even the military needs its cooks.
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Post by SKORIC on Mar 22, 2010 8:43:33 GMT -5
rofl
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Post by hellboy87 on Mar 22, 2010 8:51:15 GMT -5
No, nothing against women. Even the military needs its cooks. Cooks? But the best cooks in the world are men! So you dont want women fighting?
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Post by bob1389 on Mar 22, 2010 9:13:58 GMT -5
Women are for loving.
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Post by hellboy87 on Mar 22, 2010 9:35:03 GMT -5
Loving or sexing?
Are you a Christian?
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Post by bob1389 on Mar 22, 2010 9:46:08 GMT -5
The two are not mutually exclusive and both form the foundation of a heavyset relationship. The love and sex between man and woman is like no other. It is pure and natural. Which is why God created AIDS for gays and would certainly not allow them to pervert the military.
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Post by hellboy87 on Mar 22, 2010 11:47:01 GMT -5
so God created AIDS for gays.But what about lesbians then?
And pervert the military? What do you mean? Did you hear that story about the female soldier who got pregnant in Afghanistan or somewhere?
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Mar 22, 2010 13:18:26 GMT -5
Anybody can get AIDS. I can't believe some of you are actually trying to discuss things with bob. He's nothing more than a troll.
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Post by hellboy87 on Mar 22, 2010 15:13:08 GMT -5
what is your say on the article?
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Mar 22, 2010 15:31:26 GMT -5
I think that allowing gays to serve in the military is a mistake. Huge mistake. Do you have ANY idea what will happen to the men/women that admit that shit? Jesus, the carnage that would take place. The military is one place where gay people honestly have NO business in; with all due respect of course.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Mar 22, 2010 16:13:49 GMT -5
^ That would be true if it hadn't already been experimented with. As the article mentions, "Several countries - including Britain, Canada, Australia and Israel - allow openly gay people to serve in the armed services." If these militaries can function so can others.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Mar 22, 2010 20:28:27 GMT -5
^ You're telling me that someone like the Russian Armed Forces can do that? Read up on "дедовщина - dedovshchina".
Besides the US Military is strongest in the world. That won't fly well with 99% of its officers. I'm not saying that only gays will join the military, but that shit will hit the fan quite often. Political Correctness will always be in play, not to mention voluntary segregation. In the army, what you represent should always stay home.
To announce to the world that you're gay, and take pride in that fact is your own business. It may have its time and place in certain professions, but the military is one profession where it shouldn't be, nor is it welcome.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Mar 22, 2010 21:39:24 GMT -5
No, thanks. In Russia, there is officially no prohibition for gay people to serve in the military services. So, you support "Don't ask, don't tell"? Most Western military forces have now removed policies excluding individuals of sexual orientations other than heterosexual (with strict policies on sexual harassment). Of the 26 countries that participate militarily in NATO, more than 22 permit gay people to serve. Obama, himself, advocated a policy change to allow gay and lesbian people to serve openly in the armed forces, agreeing with General Shalikashvili and stating that the U.S. government has spent millions of dollars replacing troops expelled from the military, including language experts fluent in Arabic. In some militaries it is welcome.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Mar 22, 2010 21:42:25 GMT -5
The problem with having gays in the army is not so much fear over their conduct, I think they can perform just as well as anyone else. Hell homosexuality is not foreign to military circles anyway, some ancient Greeks argued that two men who are lovers could perform better in battle than those who are not. Nevermind the fact that homoerotic acts form quite a heavy part of a military environment (this is a pretty synchronic thing) ... However, the military is also a place is hyper-machismo. Its problem enough for females to be in such an environment, for a homosexual private this would be a death sentence. Military men tend to be very very conservative in culture and in mentality and accepting such a thing would be nearly impossible. Not to mention that many come from the lower-eschlons of life, the poor and relatively ignorant.
"Don't ask don't tell" is not an ideal policy and certainly in a perfect world we would be okay with it and judge people purely on the basis of their actions, but we don't live in a perfect world. If this were to be lifted, you would see incidents and extreme hazing fly through the roof.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Mar 22, 2010 22:51:49 GMT -5
That's because everyone has to serve, via Mandatory Conscription. Read this. Maybe you'll see why its a bad idea having an open homosexual in the military. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Sychov... and he is straight. Yes to a degree. Homosexuality is sexual orientation, not performance standard on the battlefield. If that person is open about it, they should be kicked out. Why? Because of the persecution this person will endure. I have nothing against homosexuals, but parading it in certain places will get them killed. So.. When do you think Slavic nations will adapt that policy? Every single old timer I know, and most of the young generation of just Croats are strictly Conservative when it comes to sexual orientation. Well why didn't the good General also bring up certain programs that failed in the Army, Navy, and Air Force? Sure these are changing times, as times always change. But some things should rather be introduced in 20-50 years from now, when people accept it, rather than forcing it upon other right now. Agreed.
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