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Post by rusebg on Jun 13, 2010 8:17:50 GMT -5
A nice day to everyone I have something really important to do - make a few salads and chops for my guest tonight. Hopefully Serbia win today.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Jun 13, 2010 8:18:31 GMT -5
Oh and btw, the Serbian and Croatian languages are even more similar to one another than Macedonian and Bulgarian are. Does that mean that Serbs and Croats are the same people?
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Post by fossil on Jun 13, 2010 8:24:44 GMT -5
Nikola, you sound like a very confused person. A denied identity and a non-existant identity is two different things. Stop twisting and turning mate. Just several generations ago most of the people in your country identified as Bulgarians. You accept this fact and you stop making weird conclusions and asking strange questions. for how many years in total.... the Bulgarian state was occupier on the territory of today's Macedonia..... more than the Turks or the Serbs?.... that's why it is a mess.... we can go and do this forever.... and it is relative..... by force... by time.... by place... bu faith..... ah I am Macedonian and human only.... nothing else.....
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 13, 2010 8:32:54 GMT -5
serbs and croats are not the same people...they have different religion and they have been different countries in medievil period... all that can not be said about Macedonians and Bulgarians... You may learn in your history books that the Bulgarians subdue the Macedonians but it is not true... We were one nation in the medievil times up till 20 century. Since then you became different nation.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Jun 13, 2010 8:39:30 GMT -5
serbs and croats are not the same people...they have different religion and they have been different countries in medievil period... all that can not be said about Macedonians and Bulgarians... You may learn in your history books that the Bulgarians subdue the Macedonians but it is not true... We were one nation in the medievil times up till 20 century. Since then you became different nation. My point is that the language similarities between Macedonian and Bulgarian can not be used as proof of anything. The Bulgarians were an invading empire in Macedonia, in the same way the Ottomans were an invading empire in the Balkans. Macedonians resisted the Ottomans and their religion for 500 years. Macedonians resisted the Bulgarians for even longer. Sure, the Ottomans left behind some of their culture and their genes in the Balkans, and the Bulgarians did the same in Macedonia, but in the end, the core people have not changed.
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Post by fossil on Jun 13, 2010 8:51:27 GMT -5
i agree.... clearly said..... and there is nothing to do with Serbs or anyone else.... we are Macedonians
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 13, 2010 9:34:46 GMT -5
How can Bulgarians invade Bulgarians? You have to remember that our nation was formed till late 8 century and three groups contributed the most: Slavs, Bulgars and Thracians (in Macedonia - the Peonians)... We had one country called Bulgaria and all the people identified with the state and called themselves Bulgarian. Nikola, your vision of the Bulgarians as something foreign is rather strange having in mind that the Macedonians have been called Bulgarians since 7 century till mid 20ties. The same elements mixed in Bulgaria and Macedonia to form one people... And those people had sense of unity, same language, culture and lifestyle. To even compare the Bulgarians with the Turks is laughable... The Bulgarian empire when it had Macedonia was ruling over Bulgarians, the same people as in Thrace and Moesia... The turks ruled over people they had nothing in common with, they had no the same language, culture, origin...
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jun 13, 2010 13:52:14 GMT -5
Seriously.. how many times do we have to repeat the same thing!? NO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT YOU ARE BULGARIANS. NO ONE. If you feel as Macedonians, then that's what you are. Ethnicity is a learned trait, you are not born feeling Macedonian, or Bulgarian, or whatever else.. you learn how you feel by the environment that surrounds you.
The only thing that we, Bulgarians, have claimed and are claiming is that Macedonians and Bulgarians were one and the same people less than 100 years ago. This is proven by facts, documents, interviews, and testaments by people who have come from Macedonia. This is proven by the fact that when the Serbs and Greeks occupied Macedonia, Macedonians willingly immigrated to Bulgaria to avoid persecution. This is proven that the many Macedono-Bulgarian churches that have been built in North America in the early 1900's by immigrants from Macedonia, mainly Aegean Macedonia. And finally, this is the theory supported by world history, and world historians. Hell, just read the history and origins of the most patriotic Macedonian organization of all; the IMRO/VMRO.
Actually, even when Macedonia gained its independence from Yugoslavia, the official political position of the country during the first couple of years of freedom in the early 90's was that there was no "ethnic Macedonians". Officially, being Macedonian was supposed to mean that you are citizen of this new country. A Macedonian was to be a term used for citizens of Macedonia regardless of whether they were of Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Serbian, Turkish, Jewish, Gypsy, or Armenian ethnic origin.
As I said, if you feel Macedonian you are Macedonian. There's nothing wrong with that. BUT, Nikola, himself claimed that "Macedonians from the North are NOT the same as Macedonians from the South". He himself stated that he is "whatever Serbs and Croats are". To me, that makes him a Macedonian of Serb origin. I personally think he sees himself as having a Serbian root, but today is a Macedonian like Americans are Americans. So, Nikola is NOT a good example when it comes to discussing how Macedonian he himself actually is.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Jun 13, 2010 18:13:25 GMT -5
Seriously.. how many times do we have to repeat the same thing!? NO ONE IS CLAIMING THAT YOU ARE BULGARIANS. NO ONE. Did you even watch the videos Ljubotan posted in this thread? Pause at 33 seconds, the man says: Common people have their brains washed. Common people do not know that they are Bulgarians.Seriously, are you trying to tell me that I'm simply interpreting that wrong?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jun 13, 2010 21:20:33 GMT -5
Nikola,
Are you proposing that modern Slav Macedonians were, in the past, a different ethnicity from the Bulgarians? What do you suggest, that you were Serbs?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 14, 2010 7:08:41 GMT -5
^ Nikola and Fossil are correct!, they were never from the beginning Bulgarian nor later. The Bulgarian empires were considered alien to the slavs....heck, even the subjugated slavs that were ruled by a Turkish ruling stratum considered them completely alien....it took 3 centuries for them to fuse into a Turko/slav nation!.
I'm not going to add anymore comments to this topic, its very interesting reading the Bulgar rhetoric in this subject ;D
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 14, 2010 7:51:01 GMT -5
Also i'd like to add that the *real* croat is the dialect spoken around Zagreb (Kajkaviva) and in regions of Dalmatia (Cakavica). Large percentage of Croats in Croatia (the Jekavica Stokavica speakers) and *ALL* of Bosnian Croats are speaking 100% Serbian. Now, surprise, the *real* croatian has more phonetic similarities with Macedonian/Bulgarian than standard SerboCroatian. e.g. The *real* croat lang is "Ekavica" and with -l preserved and not turned to -o
Serbian/Bosnian/SerboCroatian : Ja sam bio, deo, ceo Real Croatian/Macedonian : Ja sam bil, del, cel
Hey Ioan, you know your next target!! lol!
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 14, 2010 9:43:10 GMT -5
^ Nikola and Fossil are correct!, they were never from the beginning Bulgarian nor later. The Bulgarian empires were considered alien to the slavs....heck, even the subjugated slavs that were ruled by a Turkish ruling stratum considered them completely alien....it took 3 centuries for them to fuse into a Turko/slav nation!. I'm not going to add anymore comments to this topic, its very interesting reading the Bulgar rhetoric in this subject ;D you better stay out of it, in the end you were sucsessfully serbanized and your point of view is wrong by definition.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Jun 14, 2010 10:22:21 GMT -5
It really doesn't matter what any of us on here think. The point is what world history shows and what world scholars think. And what world history and world scholars have concluded is that Macedonians considered themselves Bulgarians less than 100 years ago.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 14, 2010 14:38:44 GMT -5
It really doesn't matter what any of us on here think. The point is what world history shows and what world scholars think. And what world history and world scholars have concluded is that Macedonians considered themselves Bulgarians less than 100 years ago. i have been reading academic history scientific published papers lately, and i can tell you for sure that there are two kinds of "scholars": The ones who write books for public consumption (the ones you read) and the ones who are doing original scientific work (the ones i read). Between the two, there is a chaotic distance. I know of Greek "scholars" who deny the presence of Slavs in the hellenic penisula!! LMAO!! Asen, quit the scholars and start reading real history or just listen what locals have to say... let me tell you a story, which has some bulgarian part as well... A byzantine story... The official "scholar" history says that Nikephoros Phocas (an armenian Byzantine General) liberated Crete from the Arabs in 961 AD. After that happened, a lot of villages named Boulgaro, Topolia, Toplo, Vidijani, etc... and numerous orthodox churches were founded... I asked a friend of mine, historian from Crete, "what do you think of Nikiphoros Phokas"? He answered : "Are you kidding? Any child in Crete knows he was a f**king anti-hellenic muthaf**ker butcher, having killed more than 270,000 Ancient Greeks who still believed in their 12 Gods" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Liberator" who installs BOULGARIANS in the heart of Pure Hellenic world (Crete) So, scholars of the world, give me a f**king long long break... Oh... the father of my Cretan friend is a ..... priest ;D
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jun 14, 2010 15:00:42 GMT -5
i wouldn't spend time to respond to you minara, but the malakies you write are hilarious!! I know of Greek "scholars" who deny the presence of Slavs in the hellenic penisula!! LMAO!! Asen, quit the scholars and start reading real history or just listen what locals have to say... Thats why you haven't read any book in your whole life...? except some internet half articles...? Armenian? Source? original please... it doesn't say anything to me if from the 1500 names of villages, towns, cities of Crete 5-7-8 have disputed slavic names... 0,006%... Source? ...bs.... Do you say that because there is a village called Voulgaro...? lol ... he must have installed one Bulgarian lady, because the name Voulgaro means a single female Bulgarian... Scholars get aside and let pyrros launch his malakies...
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jun 14, 2010 15:25:39 GMT -5
HISTORY IS THIS...:
In the 9th century while Crete was under Saracen's rule, and while the Empire was passioned to libarate it, the possible future emperor and influential politician from Constantinoupolis, Iosif Vrigas said about the Cretans and their need to liberate them in front of his fellow citizens and officials: "πρέπον εστίν υπέρ των χριστιανών και ομοφύλων αγωνίσασθαι". "we have to fight for our fellow christians and people with the same race"
Synechistes Theophanous, (Bonn),pag.475.7-8
Thats how Byzantion thought. And thats why we survive and South Italy which was as much Greek as Thessaly and Boiotia, has been left only with a douzin of greco speaking villages...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 14, 2010 23:39:21 GMT -5
Patrine, you dont know a sh1t about Crete (or about anything in general), but i will try to correct this, at least in the case of Crete @ 961 AD.... Here we go (once again): Charles Diehl in his "Ιστορία της Βυζαντινής Αυτοκρατορίας" writes: xlation: Now, nobody would call "CURSED" a poor island under Arab rule..... You are completely ignorant mr Mega-Malaka!!! i wonder why i even bother.... Would the Serbs call Kosovo as .... CURSED? Would .... the other mega-malakas Kastorianos call his "Konsantinoupoli" Cursed? And how were they "fellow" christians, when KNOWN MAINSTREAM historians (by your stupid standards) talk about christianization of the island after 961? HEY IDIOT? Also, about Voulgaro, Topolia, Moni Toplou, Vidijani and numerous other slavic toponyms you can simply search ..... TOURIST guides idiot...... Now, as you should know (if you were not such an idiot) I NEVER CLAIMED slav MASSIVE presence in Crete. NO Crete thank God remained 99.99% ANCIENT GREEK. BUT, The ONLY slav presence is connected with MASSIVE BYZANTINE MILITARY OPERATIONS... GOT IT MEGA_IDIOT? Take this in your ..... tight .... brain... as well: archive.in.gr/Reviews/placeholder.asp?lngReviewID=1671&lngChapterID=25003&lngItemID=25062Now About Phocas, being armenian, this should be of no surprise, as Armenians provided the biggest base for the byzantine army for many 100s of years... and surely in 961 as well.. Read the papers i posted in the Serbian forum.... (they are not easy, i am not sure you can make it, since you are addicted to easy-to-consume ready-for-nani books) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikephoros_IIbtw, kido, just noticed, do you know what "Maleni" means? Would that explain his pro-slav affiliation?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 14, 2010 23:41:16 GMT -5
HISTORY IS THIS...: In the 9th century while Crete was under Saracen's rule, and while the Empire was passioned to libarate it, the possible future emperor and influential politician from Constantinoupolis, Iosif Vrigas said about the Cretans and their need to liberate them in front of his fellow citizens and officials: "πρέπον εστίν υπέρ των χριστιανών και ομοφύλων αγωνίσασθαι". "we have to fight for our fellow christians and people with the same race" Synechistes Theophanous, (Bonn),pag.475.7-8Thats how Byzantion thought. And thats why we survive and South Italy which was as much Greek as Thessaly and Boiotia, has been left only with a douzin of greco speaking villages... 1st, believe me, you dont know what History is, 2nd, i guess it was not hard to be MORE greek than Thesaly (Great Vlahia) and Boiotia (Great Arvania)!!! 3rd, Byzanium, (btw i see now you are accepting the term, in the other thread you were playing little lily sissy gay games...) only endorsed the greek language (after Iraklios of course). Language (which was a raped version of the attic dialects) is only 10% of what Hellenism is about. The rest 90% was brutally killed by your Byzantium.... They would happily bring BULGARIANS to slaughter Greeks, and to build churches, and then happily baptise this as "greek"... Thats the great trap we live in, kido, and most of us cannot escape the fallacy.... Byzantium was just another DIRTY empire. period. From Constantine->Iraklios, Greek language was suppressed, and effectively all Greeks were either converted to be christian-vlahs (latin speakers, as latin was the official language) or simply .... said bye bye What happened in Crete in 961, was happening in mainland Greece for many centuries prior to this....
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jun 15, 2010 2:50:58 GMT -5
i see your sources are the great touristic internet guides.... and wikipedia...
continue this way malaka...
and don't forget you pills.
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