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Post by ljubotan on Jun 10, 2010 16:10:45 GMT -5
Found this while looking for something else, quite interesing, thought I'd share even though I support the Serb side:
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Post by logjiktek on Jun 11, 2010 9:31:25 GMT -5
Interesting video. Hopefully these ppl recognize their true background one of these days. PS: Are those other subtitles in "Macedonian?" Are they even necessary? Or is this an attempt by the Macedonians to pretend they don't understand Bulgarian?
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Post by ljubotan on Jun 11, 2010 11:52:43 GMT -5
I'm from Tetovo and I don't understand Bulgarian. I can catch some words here and there, but I understand Serbian with ease.
I think as you go further south east in Macedonia the dialect naturally gets closer to Bulgarian.
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Post by terroreign on Jun 12, 2010 4:45:55 GMT -5
That's pretty horrible. Almost hard to believe
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Jun 12, 2010 6:43:04 GMT -5
Are those other subtitles in "Macedonian?" Are they even necessary? Or is this an attempt by the Macedonians to pretend they don't understand Bulgarian? They are necessary.
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Jun 12, 2010 7:35:19 GMT -5
If there's one thing Balkan people do really well, it's play the victim. I know, I've lived with my father for long enough to understand his mentality. These people are partly lying and partly exaggerating I think.
Firstly, they are mostly talking about discrimination from way back when Yugoslavia was formed by the ruling Communists. You know, a time when Macedonians were split up and treated just as bad in whatever surrounding country they ended up in.
Secondly, Bulgarians are not unfairly treated unless they start to disrespect the people in the country that they live in. Just like the people in this video are doing! I say this because when I lived in Skopje, we had a Bulgarian woman that lived in our street, and nobody treated her any different than any other person. She was invited to all community activities, my parents never told me to stay away from her, there was nothing ever done towards her to prevent her from identifying as a Bulgarian. I also had two Bulgarian school friends in my class and again, they were free to identify as Bulgarians with no backlash.
And you know why? Because they never disrespected everyone by forcing onto them some identity that they clearly do not identify as. As you can see, the people in this video are pouring fuel on a fire. When asked what ethnic background he is, the guy in the first video responds with "I' am the same as what Goce Delcev & Dame Gruev were". What type of answer is that? In Macedonia, Gove Delcev and Dame Gruev are regarded as people who fought for Macedonia, and instead of just saying "Bulgarian" this man tries to make a political statement to say that "you are all Bulgarians, not Macedonians". What would be the Bulgarian reaction if I moved to Bulgaria, and when asked what ethnic background I' am, I respond by calling all Bulgarians Tatars? Not any different.
Hell, one guy in this video even suggests that he hasn't been able to get a job for four years (in a country of 30%+ unemployment for two decades now) due to his ethnic background. Never mind that I have family members who also haven't been employed in years, even though they identify as Macedonians.
The problem isn't random discrimination towards Bulgarians, the problem is the same as the Bulgarians who post on this site. Instead of just existing alongside each other, Bulgarians constantly insult Macedonians by denying them the right to self identity. If Bulgarians identified Bulgarians, and left Macedonians alone, nobody will hate them.
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Jun 12, 2010 8:04:51 GMT -5
Here is a perfect example of Bulgarian provocation. Bulgarian reporters come to Macedonia, and the first thing they say to a group of Macedonians they come across is, what they would you like to say about the "Bulgarian mother" but then they change that statement to "mother Bulgaria"!?!! They are actually talking about a woman of dual citizenship that was involved in some controversy recently, but the way they word the question is provocative and insinuates something else.
These people are asking for trouble. And when you seek trouble, don't cry when you find it.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 12, 2010 8:51:20 GMT -5
I disagree. That woman identified as Bulgarian, why is it insulting for you to call her Bulgarian. Also, its not the same when one person calls Dame Gruev Bulgarian and you calling Bulgarians tatars. Dame was indeed Bulgarian, while Bulgarians were fighting the tatars in the late 11 century till some time in the 12 century. I agree that Macedonians should be free to identify as whoever they want, but lying and falsifying - that what I m against.
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Post by fossil on Jun 12, 2010 12:45:25 GMT -5
even if she declared as Bulgarian..... that is irrelevant and has no meaning to the Macedonian justice laws.... which clearly say that for everyone can be opened a justice procedure.... no matter if he or she is or is not a citizen of Macedonia... but if the person is suspected for doing crimes, or things that break the laws or are against them.....
so believe me.... there is nothing to do if she was a Bulgarian or other citizen to an another country.... in other hand she has a Macedonian citizenship.... everyone is equal to the law..... if she thing that the court does not properly judged.... she may appeal to higher judicial authorities and if she is not satisfied by them, she can initiate procedure in the European court in Strasbourg..... so there are lot of options for normal and fair trial...... and if she is not guilty.... she would be free.....
and that didn't happened..... it was created a big mess between our nations.... even the presidents were involved..... and now what.....
we have a legal justice system..... if in your country it works differently... that's your problem... or you have a problem with respecting the rights and obligations of other nations, so you got the idea, that if you are Bulgarians, you may be more privileged in this kinda situations.....
and if there was such a same case in Bulgaria with a Macedonian citizen.... what would be the result.... the same.... or the citizen would be given more privileges as Macedonian...
or if there is a trial against Bulgarian in other European or World country..... it has no difference..... almost every country has this system and it can start a procedure against foreign citizens.... for crimes done in their country....
thanks...
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Post by fossil on Jun 12, 2010 12:53:48 GMT -5
do you have doubts in the European rights court...... if there was a procedure
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 13, 2010 0:36:30 GMT -5
No, I do not have doubts in the European court in Strasbourg. I know very well that you can take your case there but it is on one condition: if you have followed all the possible ways to apeal your case... In many cases when u apeal your case in the European court of human rights you do not have interest in the case, because alot of years have passed and you also most you can get is some finacial (not big!) compensation... its the last step. What Bulgarians wanted (as far as I know the case) was not some priveleges for Spaska but fair trail... Which means to be treated the same way as a Macedonian should be treated in the similar situation... It was a scandal, because she didnt allow her ex husband to see their daughter and she gets what 3 months? Do Macedonian women get 3 months in jail for such "crime"? Having in mind she has no previous crimminal record? It sounds very very very odd. So we didnt want priviliges, we wanted the equal treatment... not some medievil laws applied to her because she is from the Bulgarian organization Radko.
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Post by fossil on Jun 13, 2010 3:01:46 GMT -5
yes.... Macedonia maybe has conservative laws.... but if there was another woman (Macedonian or other) she would be treated the same same way...... and maybe she would be given more months in jail.... what Spaska got was under pressure and some privileges.....i haven't seen a president to come and to have deal about a person who has been judged to be guilty...
and nobody knew that she is Bulgarian till the media said it and cause the mess.... and now what..... if there is a trial against a foreign citizen.... we must first ask what is he... where he or she comes from....
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Post by fossil on Jun 13, 2010 3:12:25 GMT -5
and there are always a lot of democratic options if someone is not satisfied, but when you provoke.....you shouldn't be treated that well by someone or seen.... as Nikola said - if you seek trouble = a big problem
and don't thing that you have more rights than us....
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Post by rusebg on Jun 13, 2010 5:30:06 GMT -5
There is one TV show in Bulgaria at the moment - Welcome to Bulgaria, where peope of different countries compete in different tasks. There is one 19-year old girl from fyrom, quite a nice one. You know what she said about her participation in this and the reaction among her friends in fyrom? That 2 or 3 of her friends supported her, the rest were either indifferent or stopped being her friends. Quite pitiful, don't you think, Nikola?
"When asked what ethnic background he is, the guy in the first video responds with "I' am the same as what Goce Delcev & Dame Gruev were". What type of answer is that?"
This is the answer that holds the historic truth. If you make some efforts to read what these people have said or written in their letters, you will find (with a great surprise, I guess) that they identified as Bulgarians. You want me to send you a book or two?
"What would be the Bulgarian reaction if I moved to Bulgaria, and when asked what ethnic background I' am, I respond by calling all Bulgarians Tatars? Not any different."
Different in any aspect. As Ioan said, we fought Tatars and were never part o akin to them. Besides, the Tatar stuff is a product of fyromian propaganda while Delchev, Gruev, Sandanski, etc were Bulgarians. Just accept it, it doesn't hurt.
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Post by fossil on Jun 13, 2010 6:07:40 GMT -5
it is relative.... секоја монета има две страни што се гледаат.... така секоја приказна има барем две гледишта...... а на Балканов има многу приказни..... а јас не мислам да се замарам со приказни.... така да ќе останам индиферентен кон оваа тема..... во секој случај што и да се случи... јас ќе знам дека сум она што сум.... Македонец..... работа која може да биде релативна по важност..... зашто најважно е да бидеш човек и да имаш пристоен живо.... а не да исправам криви дрини.... што е што..... бело или црно..... I am sorry for the paragraph above, but my English is not that good to say some thoughts.... it is easier in Macedonian..... but you should understand.... our languages are similar ајде поздрав
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Post by fossil on Jun 13, 2010 6:25:12 GMT -5
and you should have in mind..... this is Balkan....
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Post by rusebg on Jun 13, 2010 7:16:03 GMT -5
Òàêà å, íî êîãàòî íÿêîé êàæå, ÷å å áúëãàðèí, òî çíà÷è, ÷å å áúëãàðèí, íàëè? Êàêòî òè ñåãà êàçâàø, ÷å ñè ìàêåäîíåö. Àéäå, ïèé åäíà ðàêèÿ îò ìåí
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Post by fossil on Jun 13, 2010 7:21:26 GMT -5
What? i just see this
ñåêî¼à ìîíåòà èìà äâå ñòðàíè øòî ñå ãëåäààò.... òàêà ñåêî¼à ïðèêàçíà èìà áàðåì äâå ãëåäèøòà
Òàêà å, íî êîãàòî íÿêîé êàæå, ÷å å áúëãàðèí, òî çíà÷è, ÷å å áúëãàðèí, íàëè? Êàêòî òè ñåãà êàçâàø, ÷å ñè ìàêåäîíåö. Àéäå, ïèé åäíà ðàêèÿ îò ìåí
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Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
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Post by Nikola on Jun 13, 2010 7:22:33 GMT -5
There is one TV show in Bulgaria at the moment - Welcome to Bulgaria, where peope of different countries compete in different tasks. There is one 19-year old girl from fyrom, quite a nice one. You know what she said about her participation in this and the reaction among her friends in fyrom? That 2 or 3 of her friends supported her, the rest were either indifferent or stopped being her friends. Quite pitiful, don't you think, Nikola? "When asked what ethnic background he is, the guy in the first video responds with "I' am the same as what Goce Delcev & Dame Gruev were". What type of answer is that?" This is the answer that holds the historic truth. If you make some efforts to read what these people have said or written in their letters, you will find (with a great surprise, I guess) that they identified as Bulgarians. You want me to send you a book or two? "What would be the Bulgarian reaction if I moved to Bulgaria, and when asked what ethnic background I' am, I respond by calling all Bulgarians Tatars? Not any different." Different in any aspect. As Ioan said, we fought Tatars and were never part o akin to them. Besides, the Tatar stuff is a product of fyromian propaganda while Delchev, Gruev, Sandanski, etc were Bulgarians. Just accept it, it doesn't hurt. Ruse, you're doing exactly the same thing the people were doing in this video. It just never ceases to amaze me that you don't see how what you are doing is causing the conflict.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Jun 13, 2010 7:27:25 GMT -5
yes.... Macedonia maybe has conservative laws.... but if there was another woman (Macedonian or other) she would be treated the same same way...... and maybe she would be given more months in jail.... Are you really really sure about that? I mean 3 months jailtime for refusing of her exhusband to see their daughter? With no previous criminal record? Are you sure that this is an "european" punishment for this "crime"? I find it very hard to believe that if she was just Macedonian she would ve gotton the same sentance... Really? I have the feeling she was trated worse because she is from Macedonia but indentifies as Bulgarian. Why not? If you apply medievil laws towards a Bulgarian citizen, how he can not react? No, rather treat her the same way as the Macedonians.
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