Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 5:14:46 GMT -5
A western source. www.promacedonia.org/en/hb/index.htmlby H. N. Brailsford (Methuen & Co., London, 1906)Are the Macedonians Serbs or Bulgars ? The question is constantly asked and dogmatically answered in Belgrade and Sofia. But the lesson of history obviously is that there is no answer at all. They are not Serbs, for their blood can hardly be purely Slavonic. There must be in it some admixture of Bulgarian and other non-Aryan stock (Kuman Tartars, Pechenegs, &c.). On the other hand, they can hardly be Bulgarians, for quite clearly the Servian immigrations and conquests must have left much Servian blood in their veins, and the admixture of non-Aryan blood can scarcely be so considerable as it is in Bulgaria. They are probably very much what they were before either a Bulgarian or a Servian Empire existed — a Slav people derived from rather various stocks, who invaded the peninsula at different periods. But they had originally no clear consciousness of race, and any strong Slavonic Power was able to impose itself upon them. One may say safely that for historical reasons the people of Kossovo and the North West are definitely Serbs, while the people of Ochrida are clearly Bulgarians. The affinities of the rest of Macedonia are decided on purely political grounds. Language teaches us very little. The differences between literary Servian and Bulgarian are not considerable, but they are very definite. The Macedonian dialect is neither one nor the other, but in certain structural features it agrees rather with Bulgarian than with Servian. This, however, means little; for modern Servian is not the language of Dushan, but the dialect of Belgrade. A southern Macedonian finds no difficulty in making himself understood in Dushan's country (Uskub and Prizrend), though he will feel a foreigner in Belgrade......
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 5:19:38 GMT -5
Anyway, the point of this thread is, that if we are going to believe western sources on the Balkans, we can't just pick and choose parts that we find only acceptable to us. So, my question to ioan and asen is, if we are to believe western sources on Macedonia, are you guy's also willing to accept the claims by those same sources that state that Bulgarians are not racially European?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 14, 2010 5:25:58 GMT -5
So, my question to ioan and asen is, if we are to believe western sources on Macedonia, are you guy's also willing to accept the claims by those same sources that state that Bulgarians are not racially European? a trip in Sofia can convince anyone that the population is very european like in Beograd or Budimpest. The similarity in body shape of the populace in Sofia and Beograd/Banja Luka/Sarajevo can only be explained by common ancestry. Now, culture, brains, mentality and the look of the peasants is another very very difficult story.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 5:31:34 GMT -5
I believe you pyrros. I just wonder what the rest of Bulgaria is like. If they are like Sofia, then we can dismiss anything the westerner H. Brailsford says in regards to Balkan matters. Including his assesment of the situation in Macedonia.
Oh , and he has some rather nasty things to say about Greeks too.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 14, 2010 6:22:17 GMT -5
Oh , and he has some rather nasty things to say about Greeks too. yesterday i got in a fight in a small football-running field near my house, cause an arbano-vlah local "greek" *pensioner* spoke really rude to my children. this would never happen in Makedonia (which i fully recognize)/Bulgaria/ex-YU. sorry to say, but at least half of the modern greeks are beasts, and i dont consider them humans any more. Whatever the english man said, he is right. Our chechen-albano-greko-wannabe stock, needs a lot of "civil"-injection and policing in order to become a semi-decent nation on par with the rest of balkanians. i am ashamed my kids yesterday had to go through this BS for such elementary things like going on a ride on biycles... yet those pathetic mean creatures the arbano-checheno-grek-wannabes managed to create trouble against 6-yr olds... i am deeply concerned that i raise my kids here.... PS needless to say, yester night , i grabbed my Serbian-schoolbook with more pleasure and will than any other time. PS2 Cab you please post what this man says about the greeks?
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 6:39:47 GMT -5
That sucks pyrros. I can't stand people who think they have a right to your private business.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 6:41:28 GMT -5
PS2 Cab you please post what this man says about the greeks? Just a couple of quotes. The Greeks of Macedonia are before all else legitimists. The Bulgarian will assert that in point of fact the Macedonians are Slavs. The Greek takes higher ground. His mind moves among abstractions. He talks not of Greeks, but of Hellenism, not of fact, but of right. That Hellenism has a right to Macedonia is his thesis, and he is never at a loss for an argument. He begins of course with Alexander. It does not trouble him that in classical times the Greeks possessed only a few isolated colonies on the Macedonian coast. He waves aside the objection that for the ancients, Alexander and his Macedonians were no better than barbarians.The average Greek or Hellenised Vlach in Macedonia, who professes to believe that the whole population is Greek, is doubtless to a great extent the victim of his daily impressions. He lives in a town which is for the most part Hellenised. He never goes into the country. He does not know the villages or the village folk. But even the more educated and moderate Greek, who admits frankly that the Macedonians are Slavs, will add a claim on behalf of Greece to more territory than her sons inhabit, "in recognition of the civilising mission of Hellenism."
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 6:45:18 GMT -5
On the other hand, this perpetual emphasis on the peculiar and exclusive past of the Greek race is the foundation of much of its prevailing Chauvinism. A Greek who has studied the classics conceives himself to be entitled to despise his "barbarian" neighbour, the Bulgar. The barbarian meanwhile has been busily and laboriously converting himself into a modern European. He has studied economics, or it may be natural science, in Geneva, while on the literary side the merest glance through a Russian grammar has sufficed to open up to him one of the greatest and most humane of modern literatures. For my part I am vandal enough to think Tolstoi a better influence than Demosthenes.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 14, 2010 7:44:37 GMT -5
That sucks pyrros. I can't stand people who think they have a right to your private business. of course it sucks, i am sure even in chechnya people most probably have more kindness in their hearts, and are more polite especially to children. i laugh every time i read about the "hellenization"/civilization of makedonia. this must be a joke. this pathetic arbano-stock must first "hellenize" itself.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 14, 2010 8:15:57 GMT -5
So, my question to ioan and asen is, if we are to believe western sources on Macedonia, are you guy's also willing to accept the claims by those same sources that state that Bulgarians are not racially European? It depends what he meant by European. If he excludes from European the Greeks, the Italians, the Spanish and the Romanians (southern Europeans) then it is clear that Bulgarians (including Macedonians) are not European, because we are mediteraneans (the majority). If he implies that Bulgarians look like japanease or have something to do with the yellow race (and such accusations we hear from Novi and gyrro) then I must conclude that he has never set foot in Bulgaria. However, what he says is understandable having in mind the development of the history at the said period... Then it was almost entirely acceptable that the Bulgars were some tataric yellow tribe and it was accepted that they settled in Moesia. The Kuber settlement was not known.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 8:28:29 GMT -5
It depends what he meant by European. If he excludes from European the Greeks, the Italians, the Spanish and the Romanians (southern Europeans) then it is clear that Bulgarians (including Macedonians) are not European, because we are mediteraneans (the majority). If he implies that Bulgarians look like japanease or have something to do with the yellow race (and such accusations we hear from Novi and gyrro) then I must conclude that he has never set foot in Bulgaria. However, what he says is understandable having in mind the development of the history at the said period... Then it was almost entirely acceptable that the Bulgars were some tataric yellow tribe and it was accepted that they settled in Moesia. The Kuber settlement was not known. He describes Bulgarians as predominantly "non-aryan". He does not describe Greeks and other southern Europeans with the same term, which means he considers them as "white", but Bulgarians as non-white/non-European. (a typical Anglo term to describe indigenous Europeans) So if the opinion of this westerner on Bulgaria is based on rumor and not first hand experience, then his opinion on Macedonia could also be based on rumor. Which means everything he says on the Balkans must be dismissed as irrelevant.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 14, 2010 8:35:22 GMT -5
So if the opinion of this westerner on Bulgaria is based on rumor and not first hand experience, then his opinion on Macedonia could also be based on rumor. Which means everything he says on the Balkans must be dismissed as irrelevant. Most westies only wrote to serve specific agendas. There were few who wrote "from the heart" (like Runciman), but even they lacked basic hands-on experience.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 14, 2010 8:40:00 GMT -5
He describes Bulgarians as predominantly "non-aryan". He does not describe Greeks and other southern Europeans with the same term, which means he considers them as "white", but Bulgarians as non-white/non-European. (a typical Anglo term to describe indigenous Europeans) So if the opinion of this westerner on Bulgaria is based on rumor and not first hand experience, then his opinion on Macedonia could also be based on rumor. Which means everything he says on the Balkans must be dismissed as irrelevant. I agree, moreso he is on the oppinion Macedonians are not Serbs or Bulgarians... while the majority of the authors are of the oppinion that Macedonians were Bulgarians at the time.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 14, 2010 8:51:16 GMT -5
He describes Bulgarians as predominantly "non-aryan". He does not describe Greeks and other southern Europeans with the same term, which means he considers them as "white", but Bulgarians as non-white/non-European. (a typical Anglo term to describe indigenous Europeans) So if the opinion of this westerner on Bulgaria is based on rumor and not first hand experience, then his opinion on Macedonia could also be based on rumor. Which means everything he says on the Balkans must be dismissed as irrelevant. I agree, moreso he is on the oppinion Macedonians are not Serbs or Bulgarians... while the majority of the authors are of the oppinion that Macedonians were Bulgarians at the time. man thats so idiotic to say. its like doing a referendum in UN what they *think*/want/like about makedonians, and this result to be applied. thats retarded asking foreigners to tell you what you are.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 9:43:52 GMT -5
I agree, moreso he is on the oppinion Macedonians are not Serbs or Bulgarians... while the majority of the authors are of the oppinion that Macedonians were Bulgarians at the time. I don't agree with that. Sorry.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 14, 2010 10:03:07 GMT -5
I agree. HOWEVER, I'd suggest reading the WHOLE book and I really doubt that you've done so.
And BTW, in order for you to make a proper assessment you'd actually need a little more background reading before you make such hasty conclusions. His comments regarding race do make some sense considering the feedback that came from scholars before him. History is not black and white, and in order to get closer to the truth you'd need to consult a wide variety of sources.
The bottom line is that the author of this book is not an antropologyst, he has the right to an opinion. The most important thing is that he clearly identifies the Bulgarian character of Macedonia and Macedonians. And the even more significant fact is that PRACTIALLY ALL scholars (95%+) have come to the conclusion that Macedonians identifed as Bulgarians until recently. This is just one of many sources.
The site you posted this book from has many books with different perspectives and different countries of origin. Why don't you read them all, or at least several of them before you start making some surface confusions that are clearly based on emotion rather than fact.
Anyway, here are some relevant quotes from Brailsford's book.. and again, these are the conclusions that the vast majority of scholars have come to.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 14, 2010 10:05:28 GMT -5
You don't agree because you haven't read much. Your conclusions are based on some emotional attachments to Serbs, and you yourself said that you are whatever the Serbs are.
Anyway, you'll probably never read more than a handful of excerpts from a couple of books I'll tell you that if you look around you'll see that the vast majority of sources state that Macedonians identified as Bulgarians until recently.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 10:16:46 GMT -5
I'm just amazed at how knowledgeable you are asen. You appear to have read every book there is to read, and thus your opinion is the only one that matters it seems.
Well done.
But either way, the answer to my original question is no, it seems. You will not accept the opinion of a westerner if it contradicts your stance on the matter.
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Post by andromeda on Sept 14, 2010 10:59:29 GMT -5
I see Asen's point. It would seem that , culturally , a lot of Macedonia is more kin to Bulgaria than its Slavic neighbor to the north. But its not Bulgarian and its pretty retarded to make that claim.
Genetically , there is no specific Serb or Bulgarian marker, such things do not exist in the realm of science.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 14, 2010 12:38:23 GMT -5
No, I haven't read every book there is to read. But I've ready a substantial amount. My opinion is irrelevant. But my opinion is based on what I've read, and the vast majority of books I've read state that Macedonians identified as Bulgarians until recently.
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