ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 14, 2010 12:45:01 GMT -5
No one is claiming that Macedonia is Bulgarian or that Macedonians are Bulgarians today. However, the sources show us that it was only recently that Macedonians stopped identifying as Bulgarians. Sources also show us that initially Serbia tried to assimilate Macedono-Bulgarians, and later when they saw that that wouldn't happen they started running de-Bulgarization campaigns in Macedonia. Those de-Bulgarization campaigns were continued and perpetuated during Tito's Yugoslavia.
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Sept 14, 2010 13:52:43 GMT -5
No one is claiming that Macedonia is Bulgarian or that Macedonians are Bulgarians today. However, the sources show us that it was only recently that Macedonians stopped identifying as Bulgarians. Sources also show us that initially Serbia tried to assimilate Macedono-Bulgarians, and later when they saw that that wouldn't happen they started running de-Bulgarization campaigns in Macedonia. Those de-Bulgarization campaigns were continued and perpetuated during Tito's Yugoslavia. have you ever wondered why these "95% real Bulgarian" """""""Macedonians""""""""(omg what i've just typed.. ) after one century don't even feel Bulgarians but in contrast feel hate for you? I mean, would the Bulgarian inhabitant of Sofia or Sandanski change his nationality sense because of some other state's propaganda? easy targets don't you think, for someones who would die for Bulgaria two-three generations before...?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Sept 14, 2010 14:10:16 GMT -5
No one is claiming that Macedonia is Bulgarian or that Macedonians are Bulgarians today. However, the sources show us that it was only recently that Macedonians stopped identifying as Bulgarians. Sources also show us that initially Serbia tried to assimilate Macedono-Bulgarians, and later when they saw that that wouldn't happen they started running de-Bulgarization campaigns in Macedonia. Those de-Bulgarization campaigns were continued and perpetuated during Tito's Yugoslavia. have you ever wondered why these "95% real Bulgarian" """""""Macedonians""""""""(omg what i've just typed.. ) after one century don't even feel Bulgarians but in contrast feel hate for you? I mean, would the Bulgarian inhabitant of Sofia or Sandanski change his nationality sense because of some other state's propaganda? easy targets don't you think, for someones who would die for Bulgaria two-three generations before...? People/elements with weak national consciousness are more easily assimilated/manipulated. Look at the Arvanites, they had no national consciousness, and were thus more easily assimilated. Same with the Bulgarians of Macedonia or 'Macedonians', who are nothing but an extension of the Bulgarian ethnos westwards; their Bulgarian consciousness was weak and they were thus more susceptible to Serbian propaganda.
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Sept 14, 2010 14:18:15 GMT -5
agree on that
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Post by ljubotan on Sept 14, 2010 17:27:16 GMT -5
If anyone is at fault its Bulgaria! Didn't they come up with the notion of an autonomous 'Macedonia', as Turkey or the west woudn't let them unite??
As Donnie stated, the area had a weak ethnic identity; therefore, its not like the Serbian state stepped in and brainwashed them that easily. Basically they identified with whomever was the ruling state/empire.
Don't forget though many towns or people from many Macedonian towns during the 1878 Berlin Treaty sent requests to the Serbian King demanding he annex Macedonia to Serbia and not to Bulgaria.
For an area to identify and forgot so quickly they're 'Bulgarians' is like magic. I personally feel that they deserve their own identity but not at the expense of the Macedonian name. We are not an extension of that Kingdom and have no right to the name.
Tetovo, Gostivar etc should have been annexed to Kosovo the rest of the north to Serbia and central and east to south east to Bulgaria. That receipe would have worked had been completed 100yrs ago, but the 2nd Balkan War broke out and ruined it for everyone today.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 18:19:21 GMT -5
People/elements with weak national consciousness are more easily assimilated/manipulated. Look at the Arvanites, they had no national consciousness, and were thus more easily assimilated. Same with the Bulgarians of Macedonia or 'Macedonians', who are nothing but an extension of the Bulgarian ethnos westwards; their Bulgarian consciousness was weak and they were thus more susceptible to Serbian propaganda. I have heard this argument over and over, even though it makes absolutely no sense. Serb propaganda only extended to what is modern day FY Macedonia, and yet, there are people who consider themselves to be the same ethnic group as those in FY Macedonia in Albania, western Bulgaria, and northern Greece. How can this be? If they truly are Bulgarian, then why do those "Slavs" in Greece speak the same language as those in FY Macedonia? Why do they not speak Bulgarian? Why do they not identify as Bulgarians? Or Greeks? If anything, this shows a remarkable strength of identity. That these people should hold on to their ethnicity, despite Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian propaganda to turn them into something else should tell you something. That these people never converter to Islam (while certain...ahem, neighbors did) under Ottoman rule, is proof that they are very resilient.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 14, 2010 18:27:15 GMT -5
and you yourself said that you are whatever the Serbs are. And to go back to this, I once said that I' am whatever "Serbs and Croats are", not just Serbs. And I was talking racially, not culturally. So I have no greater feeling of being closer to Serbs than I have to other southern Slavs. So please stop bringing this up every time.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 14, 2010 19:15:16 GMT -5
Britain and France didn't want a united Bulgaria as they were aware that it would dominate the Balkans.. and their problem was that Bulgaria was very pro-Russia.
Ljubotan, those who fought for and died for an independent Macedonia were all proud Bulgarians. They all identified as Bulgarians, and not only that, but they showed their Bulgarianness at every ocaision. The identification of being Macedonian to them was merely based on regioanal affiliation, and not an ethnic one.
I'm still waiting to see what Pazar will come up with as he promised that he will discuss the IMRO (VMRO).. though, he's failed to do so for the past few months.
I have to say, I don't quite agree with that. Macedonia should not be partitioned. It should remain independent as it is. All it needs to do is work on it's politics and correct the faults and shortcomings it's government has; especially regarding minorities.
Nikola, if you care to get a proper assesment of the whole situtation you need to read a whole lot more. This statment alone shows me how little you know.
Ok buddy, pick up some books and actually try to learn something before you post. The people of Vardar, Aegean Macedonia, and Bulgaria all speak the same language with different dialects. There's not telling which one is the right dialect or which is the wrong dialect, standard Macedian and standard Bulgarian are both dialects of the same language. Now, if you compare the dielcts of Skopje to those in the Aegean, you'll notice that the Serbianisation is missing. The language spoken in the Aegean sounds much closer to Bulgarian in comparison to Skopjan dialects to Bulgarian. Hell, even the language in the clip I posted the other day is practially spoken in exactly same way as it is spoken in Bulgaria.
Once more, read up because your statments are clearly lacking some basic background info. There are those who identify as Greeks and I've even come across as some who identify as Slav-Greeks.. most only speak Greek in public. And, ofcourse, there are those who still identify as Bulgarians.
Regarding the supposedly weak ethnic conciousness of the Slavic speaking population in Macedonia, well, that's not entierly the case. Those Macedonians who profoundly and proudly identified as Bulgarians were the main targets of the Serbian and Greek punishment campaigns. Many were beaten, raped, deported, impressioned, and even murdered. The majroity of those eventually re-located to Bulgaria when they saw that Macedonia was to remain under Serbian and Greek control. Many immigrated to the North America, hence the many Macedono-Bulgarian churches.
The whole Macedonian idea is newly rooted in Macedonia, it only started to gain significance after WWII. You should really read your own history. I suggest you start with learning about the founders of the IMRO (VMRO).
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 14, 2010 19:19:41 GMT -5
Guys, the contradictions i'm seeing here is typical for Bulgarian propagandists. Do any of their followers like Donnie or Andromedia ever question why there is so many sources which link Vardar (Fyrom) to the Bulgarian nation (written only after the 19th century). Does anyone notice that only from late 20th century and continuing today, the same is occuring with Serbian Kosovo i Metohija...the westerners are discovering that kosovo is the heartland of an ancient Albanian region and all those monastries were built by Albanians 1,000 years ago, only to have them converted to serbian monastries by the serbian colonists who rushed into kosovo after 1912.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 14, 2010 19:26:17 GMT -5
The problem for you Pazar, is that we have British, French, Italian, Russian, German, Turkish, American, Greek, and even earlier Serbian sources that conclude one the same thing. All these countries have had various political positions, some were friendly with one another others were enemies.. yet, they've all concluded the exact same thing. So seeing as how some 95%+ of sources on the subject, from a wide variety of political spheres have come to the same conclusion then they've probably done so because that's what the situation was.
Even though Serbs may think there's some global conspiracy against them, I doubt that the political agendas of the countries listed were all aligned in a combined effort to go against Serbia's views.
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Post by EriTopSheqeri on Sept 14, 2010 20:29:19 GMT -5
It was Tito who asked Hoxha to recognize montenegrin and macedonian minorities back in 1948...nothing wrong if some of the slavs near the border with FYROM, at the dissolution of Jugosaliva thought they were really macedonians...just like those across the lake. The bulgarians are still in bigger numbers...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 14, 2010 22:50:52 GMT -5
"The problem for you Pazar, is that we have British, French, Italian, Russian, German, Turkish, American, Greek, and even earlier Serbian sources that conclude one the same thing. All these countries have had various political positions, some were friendly with one another others were enemies.. yet, they've all concluded the exact same thing. So seeing as how some 95%+ of sources on the subject, from a wide variety of political spheres have come to the same conclusion then they've probably done so because that's what the situation was."
Show me these Serbian sources.
I have at my disposal 200+ sources and they are 99% all western sources. Again, its not about quantity but its the quality l provide here to wipp your Asen everytime.
"Even though Serbs may think there's some global conspiracy against them, I doubt that the political agendas of the countries listed were all aligned in a combined effort to go against Serbia's views."
No, its the fanasties from Venelin who created this false fable that there is a great people known as the Bulgari. Listen, even your pro-bulgar Brailsford wrote that he doesn't consider the Vardarians as one of you....read again above ;D
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 14, 2010 23:47:52 GMT -5
novi, you were posting brasilford and you were missquoting him trying to prove he ever wrote that macedonians were serbs. he never held the position that macs were serbs. its very understandable why u so desperately try to proove macs were smth different then bulgarians... you are not considered serb too, so by proving the imposible - that macedonians were serbs, you are trying to justify your new aquired serbness. we are getting it, we read you like an open book.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 15, 2010 2:38:43 GMT -5
Where do I start? Ok buddy, pick up some books and actually try to learn something before you post. The people of Vardar, Aegean Macedonia, and Bulgaria all speak the same language with different dialects. There's not telling which one is the right dialect or which is the wrong dialect, standard Macedian and standard Bulgarian are both dialects of the same language. Only Bulgarians consider Bulgarian and Macedonian to be the same language. The languages are clearly similar and originate from a similar base, but they are still different. We even have different alphabets. You understand Macedonian? Good for you. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND BULGARIAN So stop with your silly claims and move on with your lives. Serbians and Croatians have the exact same language, and they are clearly different people. Bulgarian alphabet Macedonian alphabet (similar but CLEARLY NOT THE SAME) Now, if you compare the dielcts of Skopje to those in the Aegean, you'll notice that the Serbianisation is missing. The language spoken in the Aegean sounds much closer to Bulgarian in comparison to Skopjan dialects to Bulgarian. Can you be any more blatantly wrong??? Let's listen to a few Macedonians from Greece. Hmmm... they sound 99% like "Skopjans" to me, despite the lack of Serbianisation. Here is the reason why Greece and Bulgaria really deny the existence of a Macedonian identity. Watch the clip below. It's because of illegally stolen land which they would have to give back if they ever admitted such a people exist or ever existed. It's as simple as that.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 15, 2010 2:46:46 GMT -5
nice work by Nikola and Novi, once again. (and i forgot Ioan is a good fellow as well)
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Sept 15, 2010 4:12:16 GMT -5
Nikola, OFFICIAL Bulgarian and OFFICIAL Macedonian are dialects of one language. Thats why they are not identical. Serbs and Croats are different people because: a) they have different history; b) they have different faith; c) they ve always have had different state from medievil times up till modern times; d) there have always been differentiation between them starting from medievil times. None of the above was present in the case of the Bulgarians and the Macedonians... We can say we have different history from 1878 when Bulgaria was freed and Macedonia wasnt. Since then there starts the talk that there is some difference between both people. "Macedonian" alphabeth was invented by a commitiee in the late 40ties, under direct Serbian influence, when they managed to take macedonia. Creating the alphabeth was a mean to differeciate even further Bulgarians from Macedonians. I do not believe you that you do not understand Bulgarian. Its a blatant lie. Do you know how many Macedonians live in Bulgaria presently? Alot. With none of them I had any difficulty to talk or to understand each other. I was speaking Bulgarian dialect and they Macedonian dialect. That is the sign that it is an one language: when you understand 100 percent of what the other person is saying, even though you have been in two separate states for over a century. You just have to accept our common history and just move on.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Sept 15, 2010 4:19:49 GMT -5
You just called me a liar. I find that very insulting.
So, go screw yourself, seriously. I've had enough of you and your fellow Bulgarian cronies. You make claims, I prove them wrong (with the videos I posted above), and you just stick to your tired old crap.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Sept 15, 2010 4:37:46 GMT -5
Do you know how many Macedonians live in Bulgaria presently? Alot. With none of them I had any difficulty to talk or to understand each other. I was speaking Bulgarian dialect and they Macedonian dialect. That is the sign that it is an one language: when you understand 100 percent of what the other person is saying, even though you have been in two separate states for over a century. Ioan, you remember the youtube i posted with a Serb girl and a Makedon girl discussing about 10 minutes about the boyfriend of the latter? It was in veliki brat 2009. also once they held a session about who speaks the "best" makedonian, and the guy who performed worse of all (serbians/bosnians/etc) was a guy from Pirot.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on Sept 15, 2010 10:17:12 GMT -5
You haven't read his entire book.
False. It was still considered one and the same language some 30 years ago by the international community. Once Macedonia gained it's independence from Yugoslavia, then the notion of a separate language started to pick up. Even today, linguists classify Macedonian as an ofshoot of Bulgarian.
The main differences were purposfully introduced while Macedonia was under Serb and later Yugoslav control.
Look at my posts on the Macedonian Tribune Museum. You can see the alphabet which was used by Macedonians who immigrated to the US and Canada. The characters that were introduced by Serbia and Yugoslavia are non-existent.
You understood the clip I posted, did you not? For the most part, that's how Bulgarian sounds.. minus the few Serbisms that were used.
Regarding our alphabets, you should compare them as they were before Serbia took Macedonia. See what you can come up with. If you are too lazy to to do your own research, feel free to read through the Micedonian Tribune posts I made. There are plenty of pictures there, you don't even have to do all that much reading in the first place.
Pfffff if you go to a Bulgarian village you'll hear them speak in much the same way. There are obviously dialectial differences, but it's the same langauge. If you are telling me that you can understand the person that's being interviewed, then you can easily understand Bulgarian. If you really can't, then it seems to me that you are actually putting in a lot of effort to not understand it.
I think he's actually trying very hard not to uderstand it.
I've conversed with Macedonians in Toronto as well. One time I was sitting in a coffee shop with a Bulgarian friend, and an elderly couple sat right beside us. The woman asked 'What language are you speaking?" as to start up a conversation. It turned out they were Macedonians from vardar. Now, in our conversation my friend made a comment along the lines of 'Ahhh Macedonian.. Bulgarian.. they're the same language.' The woman agreed and she was seemed very comfortable talking to us, however, as soon as the man heard that comment he kindda gave us a dirty look and didn't continue talking.. though, he didn't say much in the first place. Anyway, it's obvious that the differentiation is based on political idiologies. It's politics that has separated our langage and our people.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Sept 16, 2010 22:32:12 GMT -5
"Can you be any more blatantly wrong??? Let's listen to a few Macedonians from Greece. Hmmm... they sound 99% like "Skopjans" to me, despite the lack of Serbianisation."
His always wrong Nikola, just like the Bulgarian propagandists before him.....the father of Bulgarian propaganda is none other than the Ukrainian, Venelin.
Nikola, you see man, when l point out the serbianisms in the Shopski dialect (serbian) of western Bulgaria, he writes it off as INTERCHANGEABLE as its just a natural PHENOMENON in BuLgarski Ezik. However when you point out the differences between Fyromian and Bulgarian, oh no, his got no other way to excuse it other than to say it was the result of Serbianisation during the Bulgarian Exarchate period of 1872 through to 1912.
People fail to realise here that in the case of the Balkan Slavs, we cannot use language as a method to group people together, well modern developed languages. You see, if that was the case, then 30% of Bulgaria is Serbian territory, due to Shopski dialect, then 50% of Fyrom is serbian due to Torlakian dialect etc....This method may work for other ethnic groups, but not for Balkan Slavs. To properly figure out ones origin we must look beyond this stupid and too simplistic conclusion of comparing modern evolved languages, we must look into the historical circumstances like:
Migration, History, Culture, Art, Literature etc....not language.
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