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Post by ljubotan on Dec 13, 2010 12:58:15 GMT -5
Compare the Macedonian culture/traditions (weddings, church ceremony's, beliefs, supersititions, music, mentality etc) to that of Serbs and Bulgarians, and see who they resemble most. The language topic has been overkill lately.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 13, 2010 17:48:08 GMT -5
I agree and also to add that the language can be learned (for all we know all of Balkans might be talking English only 200 years from now) and more important subjects to compare would be culture, traditions, music, ceremonies, celebrations, certainly mentality and even superstitions might be of far greater importance when determining kinship between two populations (obviously fused with anthropology and genetics). Comparison should be made between Serbians (specify which region), Bulgarians (specify which region) and even Greek Macedonians with Fyromians to determine proper amount of similarities.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 13, 2010 18:06:29 GMT -5
some relevant quotes from wikipedia to jump start this Other authors, like historian Ferdinand Schevill and journalist H. N. Brailsford, described Slavic speakers from Macedonia as related to both Serbs and Bulgarians, but without clear defined ethnic consciousness.[47] ------ The Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts accepts that as a whole the modern Macedonian genotype developed as a result of the absorption by the advancing Slavs of the local peoples living in the region of Macedonia prior to their coming. This position is based on the findings of some late 19th - early 20th centuries ethnographers such as Vasil Kanchov,[53] Gustav Weigand,[54] and the anthropologist Carleton S. Coon, which stated that the Slavs in 6th century actively assimilated other tribal peoples by absorbing part of the indigenous populations of the region of Macedonia, which was mainly combined by Greeks in the south and Thraco-Illyrian tribes in the north.[55] By absorbing parts of the peoples living there the Slavs also absorbed their culture, and in that amalgamation a people was gradually formed with predominantly Slavic ethnic elements, speaking a Slavonic language and with a Slavic-Byzantine culture. Furthermore, the genetic studies support the theories that Macedonians genetic heritage is derived from a mixture of ancient Balkan peoples[56] as well as the relatively newly arrived Slavs with deep European roots. Population genetics studies using HLA loci have been used in light of unanswered questions regarding Macedonians' origins and relationship with other populations.[57] Macedonians are most closely related to other Balkanians as Croats, Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians and Romanians.[58][59][60][61] It is also corroborated that there is some non-European inflow in modern Macedonians.[62] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 13, 2010 18:20:44 GMT -5
I am of the strong opinion that modern Balkan ethnicities are less then 200 years old (meaning the ethnic identities as we experience them today) and are a result of influences that came from french revolution.
Medieval clerical and culturally strictly Byzantine Bulgaria as well as Serbia (where main determination of identity was religious based as in Byzantine empire as well as later Ottoman Empire) have very little to do with modern countries of Serbia and Bulgaria (where main determination of identity was and is nationalistic in nature and thus ethic based and therefore nothing in common with medieval states). Over 95% of the medical population was illiterate and highly religious.
It appears that Fyromians as well as eastern Serbians and western Bulgarians were masses byzantine in culture and slavophone with only identity (other then religious one) is of being Slavs. As Serbia expanded and as Bulgaria expanded they assimilated areas they took into what they are today.
What is certain is that vast majority of the so called Serbs and Bulgarians as well as Fyromians are native in origin (judging by cultural and physical anthropology as well as genetics) and therefore can not logically trace their true origins to either Slavs, Turkics (Bulgars) or Sarmatians (original Serboi) but to local populations which have been linguistically Slavized (comparison can be made between any unrelated assimilated populations to their conquerors).
The only identity that doesn't seem obviously imported is Greek one since much of ancient Balkans followed this culture (from southern Illyrians, southern Thracians, Peonians, Macedonians and other Hellenes) and the language (if anything else this is more then sufficient) persists till this day. If most of the Slavophones are native and if natives were all Hellenic in culture then logical deduction demands the conclusion to be that all these populations are Hellenic in origin (including Albanians who are speaking a language that appears to start formulating itself in present form after the crusaders arrived in Balkans which explains strong Latin presence in their language).
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Post by ljubotan on Dec 13, 2010 22:05:46 GMT -5
Good info/thoughts Admin!
I'll list things that I'm still aware of and/or things that were apart of the folk tradition 50yrs ago and further (no specific order):
- they use to celebrate weddings in a village for 3 days - when a couple got engaged the male along with his immediate family would go to the females house and dress her in simple gold infront of her family - a song called 'Majka zeni sin' (translation: 'mother marrying her son) is the song that must be played when the grooms mother takes the floor!! - we always have a bajrak ('banner') for the weddings and absolutely nothing happens w/out the Kum ('Godfather')! - in the old days the Kum came up with the name of your child and it was a done deal, no ifs, buts etc about it - for the wedding the male received a gold coins that were pinned to his jacket coat by an aunt etc - when a baby was born it wasn't allowed to go outside the home for 40days and then it had to be baptized (even in communist Yugoslavia) - when the groom or bride leads a song dance close family relatives are in front of them twirling handkerchiefs and throwing money to the band. Also there's someone with a sort of bass drum - as the groom, his family and closest friends make there way to the brides house before the ceremony, her family awaits him in front of the house. The father of the bride has a botsa (whiskey bottle) and everyone has to take a sip and then continue to shake everyone's hand and kiss them 3x on the cheek and then go in the house for drinks and food/meze ('sweets') etc - i should mention that prior to this the groom and his family dance kolo ('circular dance') with the bajrak representing in the background the the brides family watching in front of their house...then they approach the brides father, led by the groom of course. - someone will fire off some shoots at that point - the groom has the center chair in the house and is usually joked with about the difficulties of marriage and that its not too late for him to back out. - her family will at this point dress him up in gold (watch, bracelet, dress shirt, necklace etc) - meanwhile the Kum and Starosvat ('Bridesman') go upstairs or where the brides bedroom is and try to get through the guardsmen in a sign to steal her for free but then usually they have to pay up before going inside - before the wedding the grooms father along with the Kum go house to house with a special bottle that has rakija ('brandy') inside to invite the closest to the wedding. They're welcomed inside the home, the folks present take a sip and will attach money to the bottle, and from there they go to the next persons house. Usually the order is by closest kin (oldest brothers house etc etc) - we've always celebrated a house Slava (St Petka/Paraskeva) and a village Slava (St Konstantin i St Jelena)(slava=glory) - among a Kum we also have a best man called (Prvi dever = 'the first brother in law') - back in the old days the woman would wash her husbands feet in a bucket of water after returning from a hard days work (my grandfather) - every household carried a couple rifles - guns were fired in the sky during a wedding, upon 2 people getting engaged and when a baby is born - when traveling somewhere important its important not to look back with your head and go back (bad luck); its thought once you've stepped forward into your journey you must continue walking forward - the son always lived with his parents (village mentality back in the day) - when someone died people viewed the wake was obviously at the house and during the day of the burial the casket was walked to the village church with the casket open - most people know the name of the village they came from Kosovo (most folks) (ours is a village outside of Urosevac - 200yrs ago) - we visit the grave of the dead the 7th day of their passing, 40 days, 6mths, 1yr and every year for the day of the dead. During these milestones we bring food and place it on top of the grave and pass around food after the priest is finished with the ceremony. This is done in honor of the dead and in hopes they see its done in their honor - when a young adult (especially dies) in a tragic death the mother not only wears black the rest of her life but she naturally tries jumping in the grave. the mother becomes a living zombie who never steps outside of the house the rest of her life - after the burial people gather for a lunch at the church hall or whatever's available (house etc) - death is taken very hard in Macedonia - very hard workers and have the ability to save money - everything is done for the kids and always remain top priority no matter the age - worriers not warriors - very pessimistic people and extremely loyal - most in NW are very pro Serbian and adored Slobodan Milosevic & Arkan - marrying someone outside your religion is not looked upon very kindly at all - 8 Mart is a big thing along with Vidovdan and Vasilica (my name day!) - people don't like if you stare or glare at their baby, especially if the baby starts crying (you're usually kicked out because its considered a form of 'evil eye') - maybe not as much today but men used to gather drink rakija and sing songs about the past etc (many of our songs were those from the Metohija region for instance 'Bilbil mi poje'. - back in the day ladies (elder) would always go to the village church and would always have a scarf over their head and never forget the dead. Candles were always lit even for those that died in the 19th century - son's have an extreme sense of bond/love for their mother, usually more so then for their wife.
Enough for now, will post anything else that comes mind.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Dec 13, 2010 23:35:45 GMT -5
I edited your post Ljubotan just to include translation for local words you wrote (bold letters) so non slavophones can understand these words.
PS: I could not translate 'Bilbil mi poje'
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Post by ljubotan on Dec 14, 2010 0:10:58 GMT -5
Thanks brother!!
My mistake its actually called 'Bilbil pile ne poj rano'. Bilbil is a ptica/bird, and my greatgrandfathers name.
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Post by shejtani on Dec 14, 2010 2:04:01 GMT -5
I am of the strong opinion that modern Balkan ethnicities are less then 200 years old (meaning the ethnic identities as we experience them today) and are a result of influences that came from french revolution. Medieval clerical and culturally strictly Byzantine Bulgaria as well as Serbia (where main determination of identity was religious based as in Byzantine empire as well as later Ottoman Empire) have very little to do with modern countries of Serbia and Bulgaria (where main determination of identity was and is nationalistic in nature and thus ethic based and therefore nothing in common with medieval states). Over 95% of the medical population was illiterate and highly religious. It appears that Fyromians as well as eastern Serbians and western Bulgarians were masses byzantine in culture and slavophone with only identity (other then religious one) is of being Slavs. As Serbia expanded and as Bulgaria expanded they assimilated areas they took into what they are today. What is certain is that vast majority of the so called Serbs and Bulgarians as well as Fyromians are native in origin (judging by cultural and physical anthropology as well as genetics) and therefore can not logically trace their true origins to either Slavs, Turkics (Bulgars) or Sarmatians (original Serboi) but to local populations which have been linguistically Slavized (comparison can be made between any unrelated assimilated populations to their conquerors). The only identity that doesn't seem obviously imported is Greek one since much of ancient Balkans followed this culture (from southern Illyrians, southern Thracians, Peonians, Macedonians and other Hellenes) and the language (if anything else this is more then sufficient) persists till this day. If most of the Slavophones are native and if natives were all Hellenic in culture then logical deduction demands the conclusion to be that all these populations are Hellenic in origin (including Albanians who are speaking a language that appears to start formulating itself in present form after the crusaders arrived in Balkans which explains strong Latin presence in their language). strong latin presence in the Albanian language is due to Roman influence during antiquity, and not to a short domination ... The vocabulary of Albanian is in majority composed by words borrowed from Latin, and this could not happen only with a quite short domination of the Angevins in Albania, at a time when Latin wasn't even spoken any more (if we except priests). There are some Italian loans, but not that much (since Italians always had influence in the region), and they have been identified as such, different from Latin loans. What are your sources? Plus Albanian and Romanian are on certain aspects, close languages, in particular when it comes to Latin borrowed words ... did Romanians and Vlachs borrowed Latin words after the crusaders arrived in the Balkans ... ? Don't be stupid ...
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 14, 2010 3:42:40 GMT -5
The only identity that doesn't seem obviously imported is Greek one since much of ancient Balkans followed this culture (from southern Illyrians, southern Thracians, Peonians, Macedonians and other Hellenes) and the language (if anything else this is more then sufficient) persists till this day. If most of the Slavophones are native and if natives were all Hellenic in culture then logical deduction demands the conclusion to be that all these populations are Hellenic in origin (including Albanians who are speaking a language that appears to start formulating itself in present form after the crusaders arrived in Balkans which explains strong Latin presence in their language). As a person who struggles to maintain the Greek language in the Greek company i work for, where english is even written for the simplest matters, i can tell you with certainty that we have a big paradox here. The supposed "superior" Greeks were slavicized by those Slavic Savages? Does this make sense? Of course not. Truth is that Slavic culture was a huge movement back in 500+, smth like a religion of freedom. It is true that many natives, romans, greeks, germans run into the ranks of Slavs to find their freedom. That's 100% certain. But i dont think that Greek culture is "natural" in the balkans. Near my town in Peristeri (a vlah village, among the many many many vlah villages in Greece) student used to get beaten up by the priests-teachers to abandon latin-vlah and adopt greek. And the funny thing is that even thos ex-vlah teachers spoke greek with a foreign accent. Even today very few places in Greece are really fluent in Greek. (Crete being by far the leader in this aspect). Admin, you are expecting too much from the Greeks, but i doubt they can deliver. For me, modern greeks (Cretans, Pontians, Cypriots aside) are just Greko-phones. Unfortunately, the slavic culture is still more attractive for the undecided "undifferentiated" balkan natives. And that translates to : - better design - better songs - better organization - better tourists attractions - better engineering - better spirit In fact, i cannot find a SINGLE thing that the neo-greeks (post-450 AD) have done better than Serbs or Bulgarians. I was in Sofia and got shocked by the culture, the cleanness, the professionality and the urban atmosphere. Same in Serbia, although slightly different. In Serbia you get some places who are just huge and perfect (Zlatibor). And clean. And with happy smiling ppl, besides the extreme poverty of the country. There is a huge cultural distance among Slavs (Serbs, Bulgarians, FYROMians) on one side and Greeks-Albanians on the other side. If we want to survive, all balkanians should start and learn from one another, cooperate. Putting the golden boys of USA (Greeks/Albanians) ahead of the actually better Serbs/Bulgarians is a great anomaly which rapes reality, and keeps all balkans back. It is not natural.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 14, 2010 4:58:42 GMT -5
Some Macedonian traits from the diaspora in Australia:
- Parents bring up their children without teaching them independence. They instead want them to stay at home forever. This is a cultural byproduct of long term poverty.
- Women gossip behind each others backs constantly. Yet face to face, they are nice to each other.
- Competition amongst families. People go into debt just to have the biggest and most expensive house.
- The men don't know how to communicate. They constantly argue and talk at the top of their voice and always put down their wives.
- They never make friends outside their ethnic community.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 14, 2010 5:09:03 GMT -5
^^^ 1,2,3,4 apply to Greeks as well. Maybe you are Greek after all ;D
Especially the hypocrisy of women is disgusting. When my mom does this, i hate it... Its so f**king asian... so indian...
Just a question Nikola...
Do mak men like to seat inthe kafana all day long? are they lazy? Are they able to do basic works in the house? house repairs, basic car maintenance? Do they have "projects"? even with traditional subjects like making a new destillator for slivovica or just make a new place for smoking pork? or just repair the family's bicycles?
Do they get mad and serious about their projects?
Personally, my hobby is modifying and repairing electric guitars, which is a very tough job. When i start dealing with it, i become like a monster to the rest of the family. cant communicate with no one. But it is good the kids to learn how to fix, how to repair, design or even DAMAGE things!
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 14, 2010 5:21:04 GMT -5
I actually think we are more like Greeks culture wise than Serbs and Bulgarians are Pyrros.
Yes, the men (when they get older), love to just sit at some random cafe all day and argue about politics. They also never do any housework, and won't even stand up to walk to the kitchen to get some fetta cheese during a meal, but will instead make the woman do it.
As a hobby, they brew their own wine, rakija, etc in the shed and then brag to relatives about how much better their alcohol is than stuff you buy in shops. Even if it is served in a used Pepsi bottle.
The men are the worst. I know, I lived with my father for over 20 years.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 14, 2010 5:49:10 GMT -5
I should state, these attributes are most common in Macedonians from the Australian diaspora. When I went to Macedonia last year, I only noticed similar traits with the lower class of the population. The (growing) middle and upper class have moved on and evolved the culture to more western standards.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 14, 2010 5:53:33 GMT -5
ha ha ^^^ Nikola, the whole thing takes another perspective for me... I didn't know all that stuff... All this is Asiatic culture. Totally Indian-Paki.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 14, 2010 6:27:34 GMT -5
I think it's a cause of the Ottoman occupation Pyrros. All the Balkan lands that were under Ottoman rule are similar in that respect. I go to Turkish majority areas here in Australia and they are very similar.
However, I think Serbs have the backup of culture from northern Serbia that was influenced more by central Europe which gives them more class.
I agree with you, we all need to learn from the northern Balkans because they are far better people in that regard. I just don't think the older generation of people will change. It's up to us, the current generation to start learning from superior cultures and adjust accordingly.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 14, 2010 6:41:33 GMT -5
Ok, but when i go to Sofia, and it is totally clean and cute, and see all this "european" atmosphere, i cant help it but thing of other excuses besides the turkish occupation. Also people who have gone to Turkey (all except one) have had the best experiences from there. Its a puzzle.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 14, 2010 7:09:37 GMT -5
Maybe it's the peasant mentality then. For us here in Australia, most of the immigrants are lower class people (me included, I admit).
Not one of my uncles who live here for example have any sort of respectable education or career. They all worked in factories and crappy jobs that require no skills. The smart people from Macedonia, stayed in Macedonia because despite difficult times, they had an education and still made a living.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 14, 2010 7:26:35 GMT -5
I was watching some Big Brother Bulgaria on youtube and the following video is just arguing and screaming back and forth. I can't really follow what they are talking about but this type of attitude is also very common for Macedonians. The people can't have a quiet and peaceful conversation. Everything is a conflict.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 14, 2010 7:27:41 GMT -5
Ok, Nikola. One last question. You have been quite modest in your description of your country mates and yourself. Is this a macedonian characteristic? Do people *deep inside* know what is true and what is not? What is their stance against the concept of truth?
Here in Greece (as you can see) lies and deception is our religion. We lie inside our families, and in many cases inside ourselves as well. Do Makedonian slavs have a different stance?
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 14, 2010 7:34:48 GMT -5
This conversation is basically my mother and my father. The man just talks rubbish, and the woman sits quietly. Same mannerism and everything.
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