Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 15, 2010 3:00:37 GMT -5
These negative or what I call Balkanoid (many of which are displayed by local balkanoids here, you will recognize yourself) aspects of our culture (intolerance, superstitions, jealousy, overall negative energy, gossips etc etc) are in my opinion Abrahamic derived (via intolerant judgmental Semitic based religions such as Christianity or Islam). When they were adsorbed (or rather forced upon locals) that spelled doom for the free innovative ancient Hellenic spirit. Look, you are right and wrong. I agree that the whole concept behind Orthodoxy is totally jewish. The first time i entered a jewish church (synagog) i was blown up by the feeling, like i was in an orthodox church. But OTOH, you are completely soft in your thinking when assessing the current situation in connection to ancient greece, most probably you dont know nothing about ancient greece. The demise of ancient greek spirit, came with the peloponesean war. Ancient Greeks, very similar with modern Yugoslavs, had the tendency to become elitists, denounce any foreign culture, and unfortunately fight to death against their own kind. ("H"-kavica Ionians VS "A"-Kavica Dorians). Their only difference was the pronounciation of "Alpha"<->"Heta" After the peloponesean war, Greece was devastated. Constant riots, the poor were ripping off the rich, the rich wanted protection, sustainability of their profits. They had to "export" their problems. That was materialized in the tyranic figures of Phillip and Alexander. Greeks became the b1tces of those tyrrants. Same for Minor Asia. The spirit was lost. Dead, gone over and out. Dude, if you want smth similar with Ancient Greece, well.... you had it.... in Yugoslavia. That was as good as it can get. Remember the phrase from Ivo Andric' book "Drina Bridge" when some one says: "Why go to America? WE WILL MAKE HERE OUR OWN AMERICA".... PS I see that you categorize me among the rest of the balkan pack, of prejudice, hatred, bla bla bla, but do not point out, that i am the only one who had the guts to openly question his own made-up identity and search for greater values in the balkans. My harsh stance is not a product of propaganda, or education, or local "semitic" mentality, but simple a product of an EDUCATED person with OPEN eyes who cannot stand the great anomalies in the balkans. (Albos/Greeks all having mercedes 4x4, Serbs-Bulgarians starving, etc...) My stance was a pure product of the search of love=work=energy=engineering=agriculture=life=truth That, IMO, is the GREEK-iest stance in here... but of course you fail to see it.. I can guarantee you, that ANY ancient greek , if he was brought in this time/place he would behave like me. (The Cretans who have lived in the balkans are a living proof of what i am saying) PS2 I totally disagree with you on this one: You think philosophy dictates life??? Philosophy is a byproduct who FOLLOWS life! VERY FEW pioneers started as philosophers. In short, the one who dares, does, manufactures, builds, maintains, expands, innovates. By mimicking the french revolution or ancient greeks , we cant be nothing but "sympathetic" graphical figures. Engineering. And Arts, And Science. *THERE* is the key. PS3 YOU YOURSELF, by applying 100000s of times double standards in here, have shown how much pro-ancient-greek you really are....
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 15, 2010 6:13:32 GMT -5
Interesting Nikola - I guess I understand why many looked at people from Macedonia down, it's because unfortunately our folks come off very 'prosto' and 'unclassy'. Hopefully you're right, they do evolve because they try so hard to stay with old traditions and can't let go of things (or unwilling to change). They also live in the past. The way I see it, the culture is the way it is for a reason. The people have never really had their own country and the ability to make their own decisions until very recently. Even under Jugoslavia, all the orders and influence came from Belgrade. The good jobs, the best schools, none of them were in Macedonia. All that Macedonians had were factory jobs. The communists never cared about Macedonia. Look at how neglected Skopje was after the 1963 earthquake. Instead of seeing it as an opportunity to re-build the city into a modern metropolis, they instead built a few crappy eastern block buildings and left it at that. Skopje actually went downhill during communist. I have seen pictures of Skopje from before WW2 and it was clean, respectable. Much cleaner than it has been for the past few decades. A city no doubt inhabited by academics and people of class. But all those people moved on for greener pastures and left the city and the culture to deteriorate. It takes time for a culture to evolve. I have no doubt it will happen though. Btw, I don't care even the slightest bit that someone from Serbia or Croatia (or Greece, Albania, etc.) looks down on me. I know my worth and I always judge people individually, not based on where they are from. You shouldn't let it get to you so much Ljubotan. It's not the ideal situation, I know but just make the most of it.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 15, 2010 6:25:51 GMT -5
I was watching some Big Brother Bulgaria on youtube and the following video is just arguing and screaming back and forth. I can't really follow what they are talking about but this type of attitude is also very common for Macedonians. The people can't have a quiet and peaceful conversation. Everything is a conflict. Sorry to get back to this but, I have been watching hours of footage of Bulgarian Big Brother and other TV shows in the last few days and the conclusion I have come to is that Bulgarians are definitely different to Macedonians. They look different. They look more eastern European and sometimes Turkish, while we look partly like Greeks and partly Serbs. I can see the similarities with the language and I have no doubt I could learn to understand it without too much effort. But, the same can be said of most other Slavic languages.
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Dec 15, 2010 6:43:07 GMT -5
You are not impartial so I personally do not take your words for real. We have witnessed your proserbian (you use any chance to proove how serbian are the macs and how amazing are the serbs in serbia and abroad) stance and your antibulgarism (the fact that you point out the big difference in Bulgarians look and specifically pointing out the TurkiSH look is a proof for me that you are severe victim of macedonism: with all the things about how tatarish we are, chinease etc... but I wonder what do you mean by Turkish? If its the Turks in Istanbul, which are MEDITERANEAN as a whole, then I must agree, but so are most of the Macedonians I ve seen). As for Macedonians looking totally different to Bulgarians, I couldnt disagree more, because I witnessed the Macedonians that took part in Music Idol (they were like 5 or 6) and all of them did look like Bulgarians to me. So do all my friends from Macedonia and the Macedonians I ve met in Bulgaria and abroad. As for comparing the culture between the Bolkan people: I think it will lead to nowhere... All the abovementioned traditions are observed in Bulgaria too, I m sure in Serbia and Greece and Romania. If we overlook the language and just stare in the culture soon we will conclude that Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Romanians are all the same people.
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Nikola
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Post by Nikola on Dec 15, 2010 6:50:59 GMT -5
That's ok ioan, I know you have your opinion. But for your information, I don't think we look like Serbs proper either. Serbs have lankier frames and narrower heads.
And yes, by Turks I did mean mediterranean. But, not all mediterranean people look the same. Spaniards look different to Greeks, even though they are also mediterranean.
EDIT: Just so you know, I even muted the Bulgarian shows I'm watching so the language wouldn't throw me off but still, I feel like I'm looking at foreign people with many foreign mannerisms.
I know you want it to be true badly but we really are not the same people. There is some crossover of course (which explains why some people you meet look Bulgarian), but overall, we are definitely different. I'm convinced of that now.
I suggest you try the same thing. Watch a Macedonian movie and tell me you feel like you are looking at Bulgarian people. If you're honest to yourself, you will accept the truth.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 15, 2010 8:34:12 GMT -5
"I suggest you try the same thing. Watch a Macedonian movie and tell me you feel like you are looking at Bulgarian people. If you're honest to yourself, you will accept the truth."
Are you kidding? For them even Zona Zamfirova was in simple bulgarian. Anything close to Makedonian or Serbian for them is simple Bulgarian. Ioan claims that true Serbs are only the ones in Krajna/Bosna, but i am sure, in the right moment/place he would claim all Bosna and Croatia allt ogether.
In Sofia, in some souvenir kiosks, they were selling some t-shirts with a stamp that went like "Balgaria na 3 more" or smth like that, and had a map with a supposed Bulgaria empire which stretched from the Adriatic to black sea and from Hungary down to Aegean. I guess for the Bulgars still running on Bulgarians/Bulgaria, everything is "simple" bulgarian.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 15, 2010 8:45:39 GMT -5
("H"-kavica Ionians VS "A"-Kavica Dorians). Their only difference was the pronounciation of "Alpha"<->"Heta" LOL i vote it as the best two sentences of 2010 in this forum.... Akavica Dorians... ;D ;D ;D ;D not Stolitsnaya Achaians... their only difference was the pronounciation of alpha<heta.... OMG!!!!!!! ?!!!!!!!! Ignorance at its best...
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 15, 2010 9:31:47 GMT -5
CAN YOU FIND OTHER DIFFERENCES BETWEEN DORIAN/IONIAN SPEECH IDIOT? If not, just go and study again your albanian dictionary to learn your mother tang.
Idiot, by A-kavica, H-kavica, i just wanted to show to the Yugoslavs the parallelism between ancient greek dialects and modern yugoslav dialects.
Kolo-alvane, se eida pws to voulwses sto allo thread..... Sou @#$%^&^& thn Alvania.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 15, 2010 9:40:53 GMT -5
CAN YOU FIND OTHER DIFFERENCES BETWEEN DORIAN/IONIAN SPEECH IDIOT? If not, just go and study again your albanian dictionary to learn your mother tang. Idiot, by A-kavica, H-kavica, i just wanted to show to the Yugoslavs the parallelism between ancient greek dialects and modern yugoslav dialects. Kolo-alvane, se eida pws to voulwses sto allo thread..... Sou @#$%^&^& thn Alvania. if i can find would you write in big capital letters that you are a "megalos malakas"? some of the differences, not that has anything to d with the thread but just because for one more time your malakia should be shown...: -Dative plural of the third declension in -οις (-ois) (instead of -σι (-si)) (Ἀκαρνάνοις ἱππέοις Akarnanois hippeois for Ἀκαρνᾶσιν ἱππεῦσιν Akarnasin hippeusin , to the Acarnanian knights.
-ἐν (en) + accusative (instead of εἰς (eis)) en Naupakton
-στ (-st) for -σθ (-sth) γενέσται genestai for genesthai (to become) μίστωμα mistôma for misthôma (payment for hiring) ( this is one of the doric influences in our speech today)
ar for er amara /Dor. amera/Att. hêmera (day) Elean wargon for Doric wergon and Attic ergon (work)
Dative singular in -oi instead of -ôi τοῖ Ἀσκλαπιοῖ Doric τῶι Ἀσκλαπιῶι Attic Ἀσκληπιῶι Middle participle in -eimenos instead of -oumenos -Doric ā ~ Attic long open ē (eta) in at least some positions.
-Doric woikos ~ Attic oikos "house"
-Ordinal prātos ~ Attic-Ionic prōtos "first".etc etc etc etc just read one two pages of a Tsakonian dictionary... stin ygia sou...minara...
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ioan
Amicus
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Post by ioan on Dec 15, 2010 9:49:05 GMT -5
I suggest you try the same thing. Watch a Macedonian movie and tell me you feel like you are looking at Bulgarian people. If you're honest to yourself, you will accept the truth. I ve watched alot of Macedonians TV programs, where they discussed Bulgaro-Macedonian relations (5 or 6) and I m deffinately on the opposite view. Those people do look, act and react like Bulgarians and I see no difference physically to Bulgarians. In one show, where the TV presenter was totally antibulgarian, a viewer called from Ohrid to tell him that he calls from "the ancient Bulgarian capital Ohrid" etc... As a whole I think a lot of Macedonians do know they descend from people who identified as Bulgarians, but are living in the now and almost always dont care about it (as it will not change anything for them if their parents or grandparents identified as Bulgarians).
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Dec 15, 2010 10:04:27 GMT -5
some random BS in english Idiot, it is natural for albanians to use english sources even for their own language. ALBANIAN. well, here we go albanian : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians#Distinctions_of_languagesatisfied? hey ALBANIAN? PS i had an argument with AAdmin, please dont use this ancient albanian technique of trying to distract your opponents with random BS.... thanx... alvane
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 15, 2010 10:18:59 GMT -5
hahaha....ore kolotoumba.... now you make the words "ONLY" and "MAIN" meaning the same in english...wtf??? ;D ;D ;D
malaka paliokolotoumba...
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Post by andromeda on Dec 15, 2010 11:21:06 GMT -5
I agree and this narrative is accepted by most historians and anthropologists on the subject. However , to the common 'Balkanite' this identity is hallowed and sacred. Foolish but true. I can accept 95% it could've even been more. All the literature produced ( or at least recorded), locally ( I mean in and from the Balkan countries) is less than can fill a single bookshelf let a lone a library during that whole medieval period. Only nobles and clergy were literate and most nobles even were not. I am of the opinion that medieval Croats , Serbs , and Bulgarians already went extinct and all that's left is their namesake to be distributed on ( no surprise! wink* wink*) largely religious grounds. This was a fairly rapid ( all things considered) linguistic transformation of the region. Warlords and Nobles from outside the Latin/Greek world invaded or were indeed invited to come add counterweights to already existing disputes. Both parts of Rome , Greek and Latin were already losing control of the native populations of the Balkans before the Slavs ever arrived. The people of the region were then subjected to new mini governments and business was conducted in the new Slav languages. To survive voluntary and submissive assimilation was necessary. That's why I think modern identities fail to recognize proper history. It appears that the vast majority of Balkan residents are 'ethnically' Illyrian or rather this is the stock of people they descend from and linguistically Slav ( Albanians and Romanians excused ). But the real catalyst for forming modern identities is without a doubt the religious crossroads that cut right through the region. It's interesting to think how we would've turned out had religious influence been much weaker. It seems as if the ancient Hellenic identity is also a thing of the pass despite the existence of modern Greece. I look at modern Greece and its hard to fathom that this is the homeland of the greatest thinkers of the past such as Socrates, Aristotle, Pericles, etc , let alone being the fountain of knowledge in the ancient world. It's kind of like looking at Modern Egypt and knowing it has little to do with Ancient Egypt. Read more: illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=makedonijamacedonia&action=display&thread=32192&page=1#ixzz18CFSHNsD
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rex362
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Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
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Post by rex362 on Dec 15, 2010 11:50:15 GMT -5
wtf is going on here .. "Comparison of the Macedonian culture to Serb/Bulg" same thing as this ..... Comparison of the Slavic culture to Slavic/Slavic
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rex362
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PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
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Post by rex362 on Dec 15, 2010 12:03:22 GMT -5
Oxi FILE!! EGW tous kanw OLOUS oti THELW, exw apagoreusei sthn gunaika na leei otidhpote kata ths Yugoslavias..... Ta de paidakia tha kanw CETNIKS.... Authn einai h alitheia.... sorry ...no Greek allowed here English -slavic -albanian- gypsy allowed
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Dec 15, 2010 13:33:13 GMT -5
Oxi FILE!! EGW tous kanw OLOUS oti THELW, exw apagoreusei sthn gunaika na leei otidhpote kata ths Yugoslavias..... Ta de paidakia tha kanw CETNIKS.... Authn einai h alitheia.... sorry ...no Greek allowed here English -slavic -albanian- gypsy allowed nothing special written... just that pyrros will make his kids cetniks...
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Post by andromeda on Dec 15, 2010 14:22:36 GMT -5
This was typical of centrally planned socialist economies though the centralization did loosen up over time with the quasi-free market idea of 'workers self-management' and private property ownership introduced. This along with freer mobility to work abroad earned Yugoslavia some wealth, especially compared to other communist countries. That and the massive loans the government took for temporary booms. Macedonia was still largely an agrarian economy because of lack of infrastructure. Slovenia , Croatia , Northern Serbia , and parts of Bosnia already had established infrastructure. Bosnia had all the natural resources necessary to become a production powerhouse which it did. Macedonia offered Tobacco and agriculture for the most part. It was partially industrialized but like Kosovo , it started from scratch. Skopje was actually less populated before Yugoslavia. Again , Macedonia was an agrarian society that lacked industrial infrastructure. Tito's regime attempted to industrialize it somewhat like they did to Pristina which attracted a lot of workers but these people had to be housed and fed hence the rise of typically Eastern Bloc apartment buildings and lack of 'color' that followed. This naturally brought more pollution and filth. Lets hope it evolves for the better and doesn't become anti-progressive , sheltered, and resistant to other cultures. I'm Croatian, I don't look 'down' on anyone. Maybe by comparison Croatia is significantly more advanced on the world stage in terms of economy and culture than Macedonia but that's only relative. I wouldn't want a German , Englishman , or Frenchman looking down on me because Croatia has yet to achieve the cultural development of their countries. We are all human beings existing today and its not our fault what despots and warmongers did to our homelands in the past. On top of that , I like Macedonians. My neighbors are Macedonians ( Slav - Fyromans) and they are truly 'ljudina' or great people. I love being in their company. Read more: illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=makedonijamacedonia&action=display&thread=32192&page=2#ixzz18D1sa2eF
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Post by andromeda on Dec 15, 2010 14:30:45 GMT -5
Excuse me are you not being a just a little hypocritical here? I find it interesting that you are accusing Bulgarians of an Imperialistic and Expansionist mentality yet you hold the exact same mentality for anything Serb or 'similar to Serb.' Case in point, I'm sure you have no problem denying Croats and Bosniaks their identity simply because they speak a similar dialect and language that many Serbs speak and hence , you claim them as Serbs and their culture as 'Serbian.' Or the people of Western Bulgaria share commonalities with those of Eastern and Southern Serbia and thus , they must be 'Serbian' too even though they may not call themselves Serb.
I'm just saying , don't get upset at radical Bulgarian claims over Serbs when you readily make the same Serbian claims over others.
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Post by plisbardhi on Dec 15, 2010 15:06:16 GMT -5
Please demonstrate for us how the Cretans prove that. LOL
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Post by terroreign on Dec 15, 2010 15:11:34 GMT -5
wtf is going on here .. "Comparison of the Macedonian culture to Serb/Bulg" same thing as this ..... Comparison of the Slavic culture to Slavic/SlavicSo you admit you have a Slavic culture?
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