Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
|
Post by Nikola on Feb 2, 2011 5:53:07 GMT -5
^ lol I think Nikola would probably get indigestion or something. Why would I do that? That article states exactly what the Macedonian people have always claimed. "After the Balkan Wars and the First World War, only 10% of Macedonia was included in Bulgaria. The remaining 90% were occupied and divided between the Kingdom of Greece and [Yugoslavia]..."And I proved that there was a Macedonian identity before WW2 in the other thread. So what's the issue exactly?
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Feb 2, 2011 10:45:17 GMT -5
Nikola, you're really being silly bro. You didn't prove jack. There was indeed a Macedonian identity before WW2, however, it was still used as regional identity. Granted, it's not like in 1945 they flipped a switch and it became an ethnic identity.. there was a transition, post 1945 is when the majority started to identify as ethnic Macedonians. Before that, the majority identified as ethnic Bulgarians.
The "article" as you put it, also states:
Read that carefully, and try to actually learn something.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 3, 2011 3:02:56 GMT -5
Aziz, you are doing a great job in making the undecided Makedonians turn away from the Bulgars.
|
|
|
Post by ljubotan on Feb 3, 2011 10:40:23 GMT -5
This is a map of 'real serbia', but what I agree with on the map is the portion of Macedonia considered to be ethnic Serb. The rest is definitely pure Macedonian and/or Bulgarian.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Feb 3, 2011 10:41:46 GMT -5
Gyrro, retard, I know this whole discussion is hard for you grasp. No one is trying to make anyone into anything. Macedonians are whatever they identify as, we're not trying to take that away from them. BUT, history is history, and it's very well recorded. The fact that their ethnic identity was Bulgarian some 50-60 years ago is a fact.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Feb 3, 2011 10:47:17 GMT -5
Ljubotan, that's an interesting map. However, it just looks like something that a Serb with Photoshop created. I haven't seen any actual ethnic maps that support that. Even though Serb concentration is near the North of Macedonia, the map in your video is overly exaggerated. I'm not trying to dispute what you've posted, just saying that I've never come across such a map in any reputable neutral source.
|
|
|
Post by ljubotan on Feb 3, 2011 12:47:48 GMT -5
My comments are just for that portion in Macedonia. My opinion on the map, from an ethnic Serb presence its accurate but from a majority population it is not.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 3, 2011 18:47:25 GMT -5
^ Ljubo, in reality, however you may feel, the whole region of vardarska banovina is really serbian. You just need to look at the cultural/historical/toponyms, even look at the monuments/monastries and think why did the BuLgarski priests during the exarchos were ERASING Serbian architecture.....this same architecture is also seen in western Bugarska, not in BuLgarska. PS Have you ever thought why we both call the Bulgarians *Bugari* as opposed to Bulgarians calling themselves *Bu Lgari*. The Ex-Serbian Western Bugari call themselves Bugari but not Bu Lgari
|
|
Nikola
Senior Moderator
Posts: 1,835
|
Post by Nikola on Feb 3, 2011 21:23:31 GMT -5
You just need to look at the cultural/historical/toponyms, even look at the monuments/monastries and think why did the BuLgarski priests during the exarchos were ERASING Serbian architecture.....this same architecture is also seen in western Bugarska, not in BuLgarska. Yes but you can't use architecture, customs or even language as proof of ethnicity or race. Macedonia has some leftover Ottoman architecture, foods and even words too but we certainly aren't Turks. All of those things can be brought or forced onto people but that won't change who the people really are.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 4, 2011 3:04:43 GMT -5
Macedonians are whatever they identify as, we're not trying to take that away from them. BUT, history is history, and it's very well recorded. The fact that their ethnic identity was Bulgarian some 50-60 years ago is a fact. if these people were bulgarians before, and before that serbs, and now makedonians, then they are not very *good* bulgarians, are they? Why do you struggle for such an *infidel* portion of the (ex??)-bulgarian nation if in reality they hate to be a part of your ethnos? Ever thought of that idiot?
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Feb 4, 2011 3:22:28 GMT -5
One thing I know for sure, Kumanovo, Skopje, Staro-Nagoricane and the Mijaci/Brsjaci are Serbian 100%.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 4, 2011 4:21:47 GMT -5
^^^ Funny thing is that western bulgarians sound Serb-ier even than northern Makedonians. Its a weird mess, and any attempt to create a new reality will fail. I am not advocating anything regarding how these people want to feel. All i am saying is that the bulgarian bonbon by the bulgarian cry-babies has degraded to an desperate, useless (and irritating) noise.
|
|
|
Post by rusebg on Feb 4, 2011 5:01:04 GMT -5
Do they? And when did you hear that, Padar?
|
|
|
Post by rusebg on Feb 4, 2011 5:06:06 GMT -5
Easy there with the percentage, Krivo. Now look at this man:
Boris Stoyanov Drangov (Bulgarian: Борис Стоянов Дрангов; 15 March 1872–26 May 1917) was a Bulgarian colonel and warfare pedagogue.
Drangov was born in Skopje in Ottoman-ruled Macedonia (today the capital of the Republic of Macedonia), to the family of a rich timber merchant. He graduated from the local Bulgarian Exarchate school or the Bulgarian Men's High School of Thessaloniki. In 1891, he enrolled in the Military School in Sofia in the Principality of Bulgaria. After a conflict with an officer, he was dispatched to Lom in 1894; in the town, Drangov met his future wife (also from Macedonia) and was promoted to second lieutenant in 1895. In 1899, he became a first lieutenant.
During the Ilinden–Preobrazhenie Uprising of 1903, Drangov left the Bulgarian Army to arrive in Macedonia. There, he assembled an armed detachment of 120 men which fought the Ottomans in the Kratovo region. After the uprising's suppression, Drangov returned to the army and was promoted to captain (rotamaster). He studied at the Imperial Russian General Staff Academy in Saint Petersburg; he graduated with honours in 1907 and returned to Bulgarian service. Promoted to major in 1910, he became a lecturer of military tactics at the Military School in Sofia.
During the First Balkan War of 1912–1913, Drangov headed a brigade on the Thracian front, defeating the Ottomans at Çatalca and during the Siege of Adrianople. During the Second Balkan War, Drangov fought the Serbs at Bublyak Peak. In February 1915, he was promoted to lieutenant-colonel.
With the outbreak of World War I, Drangov was named as the head of a regiment consisting mainly of untrained Macedonian Bulgarian volunteers. Under his training, the regiment turned into an efficient unit and fought at Kalimanci, Kočani and Štip. He also fought at the Romanian front in Dobruja before he was dispatched back to Macedonia, where his unit guarded the River Crna meander. He was wounded during artillery shelling on 26 May 1917 and died of his wounds the same evening.
Boris Drangov was interred in the Saint Demetrius Church's yard in Skopje. His remains were later moved by the Serbian authorities to a common cemetery. Drangov was posthumously promoted to colonel by the Bulgarian Army. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This diminishes your perecentages a little bit, what do you say? Also, would you give me some examples of great Serbs that were born in Skopje?
|
|
ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
|
Post by ioan on Feb 4, 2011 5:30:06 GMT -5
amazing story of a great Macedonian Bulgarian. And there are alot of these. And I mean alot.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Feb 4, 2011 5:41:46 GMT -5
120 men??? Hmm interesting... Quite a small figure i suppose, compared to the TWO MAKEDONIAN DIVISIONS who took part in the yugoslav army later in WWI....
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 4, 2011 9:52:37 GMT -5
"Yes but you can't use architecture, customs or even language as proof of ethnicity or race. Macedonia has some leftover Ottoman architecture, foods and even words too but we certainly aren't Turks. All of those things can be brought or forced onto people but that won't change who the people really are."
True to a degree Nikola. The Slavs of Vardar and the slavs of old serbia + montenegro share traditions that are found only amoungst those peoples, they are unique to them only, not found in other slavic groups.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Feb 4, 2011 10:18:48 GMT -5
"120 men??? Hmm interesting... Quite a small figure i suppose, compared to the TWO MAKEDONIAN DIVISIONS who took part in the yugoslav army later in WWI...."
pyrro, don't take it seriously, we both know its an exarchos posion. The reason why the serbs of vardar decided to *join* the exarchos was to separate themselves from the Patriachate.
If you look into this IMRO and Exarchate thing you will notice that the BuLgarski Exarchate viewed the IMRO as its number one enemy, eventhou on the outside they co-operated mutually....why?....because the Exarchate was legally recognised while IMRO wasn't. Many of the Bulgarianised serbs who joined the IMRO were educated in Bulgarian Exarchate schools, they were fed up with the Exarchos and they TURNED against them. You see Pyrro, the Exarchos was viewed as CENTRALISTS while the IMRO was viewed as AUTONOMISTS who wanted to join with BuLgarska as one nation, but when they were to win their freedom as one nation then they wanted to get their automony from Bulgarska and separate. Why did the slavs of vardar turn to Bulgarska?, well they had no support from serbia, at all, because serbia was exhausted by wars, whereas BuLgarska was financed by RUSSIA. Many southern serbs who seeked assistance from Serbia were turned away, and were told to go to Sofia because of her financial situation as Russia was loading her up.
Pyrro, the southern serbs were desparate to get their freedoms from the Turk and they were ready to unite with the demon (Bulgarska). The dumb BuLgari don't understand this and they will never understand, the southern serbs were only out there to use them so they could win their freedoms from the Turk.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Feb 4, 2011 11:07:47 GMT -5
Bwahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahha what a retard. Where’d you hear that!?
Nikola, for once bro, you are absolutely right. The most important thing is how people identify themselves on their own and how they’ve identified through time!
Who said they were Serbs!? There are no documents, chronicles, journals, facts, or evidences to support that. Why would you assume they were Serbs!? Just because the Serbian Empire ruled over Macedonia for some 30 years, doesn’t make them Serbs. Realistically, all Serbian influence in Macedonia is recent.. ie. post 1900’s. Before that, there was never any doubt in the Bulgarian identity of Macedonia and it’s people; Serbs have always been a minority in Macedonia. These are all well recorded facts. And if you weren’t that big of a retard, you’d pick up some neutral books and educate yourself on world opinion/findings rather than focusing on some moronic old school Serb or Yugoslav propaganda.
Again, you seem to think that we want to “take back” Vardar Macedonia, or that we want to “make them Bulgarians again”. I think we’ve clarified this many times before. We as Bulgarians have no such intentions, Bulgaria as a country has no such intentions. We just want to be sure that the Bulgarian identity of Macedonia and its people throughout history is not forgotten. They may identify as ethnic Macedonians today, which is fine, however up until recently they only thing these people identified as was ethnic Bulgarians. True story.. and as I’ve said many times before, these are all well recorded facts and there’re plenty of sources, facts, proofs, and evidences to support what I’m writing here. We’ve already provided many neutral sources on the matter.
Lol Kriv, take it easy bro. There’s NOTHING 100% Serbian in Macedonia. The regions you specified are where most of the Serbian minority is located, but there ain’t anything Serbian about them aside from the fact that you’d probably find more Serb sympathisers there.
Oh yeah, right on Pazar, you’re a true genius. Though, I wonder, why is it that when Serbia forcefully occupied Vardar Macedonia all those supposed “Southern Serbs” as you call them.. why is it they all FOUGHT AGAINST the Serbs!? Why is it that they fought against the Serbs with a passion equal to that with which they fought the Turks!? Hmm could it have been a civil war that no one in history was ever aware of!? Could ALL of the sources on the matter be wrong!? Could the whole western world, Turkey, Russia, and even Serbia itself be wrong as well!? I wonder.. how much more retarded can you get.
|
|
ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
|
Post by ioan on Feb 4, 2011 13:12:01 GMT -5
Also one should wonder why the so called "southern serbs" would seek help from the alien Bulgaria? Because Serbia was tired of wars? And Bulgaria wasnt? Like we didnt fight just 5 years after our liberation because of backstabbers like Novi (i m sure the only "serbs" supporting the war might have been the Torlaks because of their complexes and they might have wanted to include more "southern serbs" in Serbia with their language not understandable in the real serbian areas).
|
|