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Post by macmako on May 10, 2011 13:28:33 GMT -5
^ Pyrro brate, this Demo has been taught by his mother at home during dinner. My point to him strictly is that these Slavs ADOPTED a name from a geographical stand point, this name has NO ETHNOGRAPHICAL SIGNIFICANCE. It can be seen by a couple of points l made above that even Serbs were calling themselves at times Macedonian, outside of Vardar. I think for one that can not even spell the country name out does not have any room to talk. Sure, to Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks, the name Republic of Macedonia has no ethnographical significance. That is because they chose to have it that way. But there is ethnographical significance to the Macedonians. That is what is important, not what outsiders think. Got it, Novi?
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ivo
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Post by ivo on May 10, 2011 14:24:34 GMT -5
This is interesting.. though you fail to realize that it is "outsiders" that have made these people feel as "ethnic Macedonians". And the methods that these "outsiders" used were very very brutal. Anyhow, nearly 1/4 of Bulgarians have roots in Macedonia.. and this is mostly due to the fact that when the "outsiders" annexed most of Macedonia these "Macedonians" willingly immigrated to Bulgaria.
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Post by macmako on May 10, 2011 15:26:41 GMT -5
This is interesting.. though you fail to realize that it is "outsiders" that have made these people feel as "ethnic Macedonians". And the methods that these "outsiders" used were very very brutal. Anyhow, nearly 1/4 of Bulgarians have roots in Macedonia.. and this is mostly due to the fact that when the "outsiders" annexed most of Macedonia these "Macedonians" willingly immigrated to Bulgaria. Willingly immigrated to Bulgaria is okay. While some decided to be called Bulgarians, others maintained their ethnicity as Macedonians. But I disagree about outsiders making people feel as ethnic Macedonians. They feel Macedonian with no help from outsiders. But it was outsiders that tried to make them feel Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian. While some were affected ( those that were baptized Greek, Serb or Bulgarian, for example) they were easily affected because of their young age. Many that were older fought it off effectively.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 11, 2011 0:53:57 GMT -5
"I think for one that can not even spell the country name out does not have any room to talk. Sure, to Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks, the name Republic of Macedonia has no ethnographical significance. That is because they chose to have it that way. But there is ethnographical significance to the Macedonians. That is what is important, not what outsiders think. Got it, Novi?"
No, l don't get it, because Macedonians were Hellenes, the same stock of people that are the same as your father = GREEK. The slavs of Vardar and some from Northern Greece are SLAVS = your mother. Ancient greeks (Macedonians, Cretians, Cypriots etc...) had a way different culture to the Ancient Slavs (Serbs, Croats and Slovenes). Hence my point that the name is only of geographical significance, not ethnographical.....l don't think your thick head understands?
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 11, 2011 1:03:54 GMT -5
"You nailed it man... Makedonia = Bosnia, just two name places, where Serbs live."
Exactly Pyrro, spot on. To them they were only names they borrowed and used, just like the Albanianised Slavic names from Albania. The name *Macedonia* was used as a geographical standpoint to communicate to other Slavs or Serbian Slavs they are from the south, thats all.
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Post by macmako on May 11, 2011 7:47:44 GMT -5
"I think for one that can not even spell the country name out does not have any room to talk. Sure, to Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks, the name Republic of Macedonia has no ethnographical significance. That is because they chose to have it that way. But there is ethnographical significance to the Macedonians. That is what is important, not what outsiders think. Got it, Novi?" No, l don't get it, because Macedonians were Hellenes, the same stock of people that are the same as your father = GREEK. The slavs of Vardar and some from Northern Greece are SLAVS = your mother. Ancient greeks (Macedonians, Cretians, Cypriots etc...) had a way different culture to the Ancient Slavs (Serbs, Croats and Slovenes). Hence my point that the name is only of geographical significance, not ethnographical.....l don't think your thick head understands? You seem very confused. The people that live in Greece are Greek. There are Macedonians that live or have lived in Northern Greece, but they are not Greek except for maybe being born there (on paper only). My father is Greek, not Macedonian. My mother is Macedonian, but born in Greece. She was Greek only on paper (American now), but inside she is Macedonian. Does your empty head understand this? I am only trying to get rid of your confusion. It is very embarrassing to witness.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on May 11, 2011 8:30:39 GMT -5
Would you care to tell me why did so many immigrate to Bulgaria, and not to Serbia or Greece? Would you also care to tell me why is it that those who immigrated to Canada and US maintained a self identification of either Macedono-Bulgarian, or simply Bulgarian? I’m sincerely asking you, as I’m interested in hearing your take on this.
They were always Macedonians on a regional basis. They always had a “Macedonian” regional identity, however, ethnically they identified as Bulgarians from long long before they were forced to relocate by the Greek and Serb occupation of Macedonia.
The bottom line is that until Serbia occupied Vardar, and Greece occupied the Aegean.. there was never in the history of time a time when these people identified themselves as anything other than Bulgarian (the Ancient Macedonians were a different people, the early Slavs prior to the Bulgarian arrival were a different people). The notion of being Macedonian was only symbolic on a regional basis, not an ethnic one. The ethnic Macedonian identity is a new one, and one that was enforced by brute force, beatings, imprisonment, exile, rape and so forth.
An interesting statement, but a very ignorant one at that.. especially considering that ALL the BIG Macedonian patriots that are celebrated even today in the Republic of Macedonia have had a strongly pronounced Bulgarian self consciousness. Read up on the IMRO, see what you come up with.
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Post by macmako on May 11, 2011 18:44:46 GMT -5
No, I do not care to.
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Post by macmako on May 11, 2011 18:47:10 GMT -5
Yes, there are those Macedonians that identify themselves as Bulgarians. But a vast majority identify themselves ethnically as Macedonians.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on May 12, 2011 8:22:33 GMT -5
Yeah, today they do, 10 years ago they did, 50 years ago they did.. but in the early 1900's they identified as ethnic Bulgarians. Even after WWI, the majority still identified as ethnic Bulgarians.
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Post by macmako on May 12, 2011 8:55:21 GMT -5
Yeah, today they do, 10 years ago they did, 50 years ago they did.. but in the early 1900's they identified as ethnic Bulgarians. Even after WWI, the majority still identified as ethnic Bulgarians. Sorry, Ivo. You are most assuredly incorrect. I mean this with respect, for family documents tell otherwise. So do not ask for me to post these documents. It will not happen. Take my word for it if you'd like. If not, that's okay, too. Still, you are 100% incorrect.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on May 12, 2011 9:18:12 GMT -5
No need to be sorry, no need to post anything you don't want to post. I've seen such documents as well, I've seen documents where Bulgarian names were changed to resemble Serbian ones, I've seen documents where Bulgarian names were changed to look Greek, and I've seen documents where Bulgarians were identified as anything but Bulgarian.. and all this from Macedonia.
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Post by Novi Pazar on May 13, 2011 0:25:54 GMT -5
^ Resemble serbian names? ??.....no, wrong on all counts, wasn't it the other way round. Serboslavia introduced the suffix *ski*, why not *vich*?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 13, 2011 1:16:48 GMT -5
^ Resemble serbian names? ??.....no, wrong on all counts, wasn't it the other way round. Serboslavia introduced the suffix *ski*, why not *vich*? You are wasting your time with the mongol. He has neither the ability nor the will to grasp the obvious.
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Post by macmako on May 13, 2011 7:26:42 GMT -5
No need to be sorry, no need to post anything you don't want to post. I've seen such documents as well, I've seen documents where Bulgarian names were changed to resemble Serbian ones, I've seen documents where Bulgarian names were changed to look Greek, and I've seen documents where Bulgarians were identified as anything but Bulgarian.. and all this from Macedonia. I do not have the luxury of having access to documents such as you do, so I just can not know or will even try to comment. But what Bulgarian (or anyone for that matter) change their names to resemble a Serbian one? Makes me shutter with chills!!!!
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Kralj Vatra
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Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on May 13, 2011 8:32:17 GMT -5
OTOH,
i think Jovan or Ruseche were telling us, that the "-vic" ending was considered "simple bulgarian" at some point in time, and later Bulgarians decided to drop this form of Bulgarian surnames ;D
Lever mind, another mongolian inconsistency... among the myriads around...
PS Demo, day by day, your stance reminds more and more that one of a paid agent, rather a person who had the slightest conduct with Serbs ever. You have failed to provide adequate proof that your hate is substantiated (your stories about your greek grandma spitting on the ground were laughable to say the least), so i would be interesting to hear the whole story, i mean the background of your situation which would better help us assess your situation from a medical point of you ;D
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ivo
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Post by ivo on May 13, 2011 8:44:07 GMT -5
The names were changed by force. I’m going to dig around a bit, there was a document I had read a while back from the very early 1990’s of a Western traveler interviewing a Serbian “police” official asking him about some “Serbs” in Macedonia.. to which the Serbian official exclaimed “These are Serbs today, but they were Bulgarians yesterday” or something along those lines.
Thankfully the “Serbianization” of Bulgarian names didn’t take a firm hold, but the later “Macedonization” did. The standard –ev and –ov endings were altered to fit with the “Yugoslavian views”, and were styled as –ski, -ska etc. Not that the –ski, -ska name endings don’t exist in Bulgaria, but they’re not as popular as the –ev and –ov endings. In Macedonians, the –ski endings can been seen easily throughout Vardar Macedonia.. but not so much in the Aegean. Though, in the Aegean, many names were changed to sound or look Greek.. true story, I know people who’s Canadian passports designate them as Greeks with Greek names, but they ain’t no Greeks.
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ivo
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Post by ivo on May 13, 2011 8:46:33 GMT -5
Uhhh you've not read the posts properly again. The language of the Torlaks in Serbia has been recorded as "simple Bulgarian", they themselves had identified it as such.
Regarding the -vic or -vich name ending, the whole point was that it's not exclusively Serbian. Russians have it. We have it as well, but it's not popular.
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Post by macmako on May 13, 2011 8:57:00 GMT -5
Awesome. You get better and better everyday at your unintelligible, and insignificant noise. A good sign that you are getting dumber by the hour. I SALUTE YOU!!!!
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Post by macmako on May 13, 2011 9:00:19 GMT -5
There surely was a lot of that going on in the Balkans.
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