ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Aug 12, 2011 8:35:26 GMT -5
It seems the US really wanted to establish a firm footing in that part of the Balkans, so who knows, they could have found other reasons to "enter".. there's always a pre-text before all such events. It is possible that US would have entered regardless of Serbia's actions.
However, in all fairness, Serbia's politics for the past 100 years or so have been very "harsh" toward minorities under its control and its neighbors. Today this is evident by looking at the relations between Serbia and most of it's neighbors, and they're not entirely 'rosy' to put it mildly.
While at the same time, it seems that many Serbs blame outsiders and some even present the situation as if there's a global anti-Serb conspiracy.
The US and the "Great Powers" have many faults, and they'll always do whatever is in their best interest. Even when they're at fault, they have enough funding and power to present the situation in a way that would depict the US as 'Freedom Fighters' and the all others as enemies. This is no secret.
However, in my opinion Serbia's own politics is what opened the doors.. these politics were in place long before the US became a global super power.
|
|
|
Post by uz on Aug 12, 2011 9:07:53 GMT -5
Serbia's politics in the past 100 years was far from harsh comparing to our fellow neighbours.
Many Albanians and others have found a home in Serbia, belgrage and other cities, and they live in harmony and peace, so don't give me that excuse that we were harsh.
The Serbs were pushed, I know this first hand coming from my family, they were left alone to fend for themselves and so they did what they had to do to survive, and just how history repeats itself, they were left alone till the end.
I am not saying that the Serbs are all angels, what I am saying is that it takes two to tango.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Aug 12, 2011 9:56:05 GMT -5
Serbs that occupied Macedonia committed many atrocities to the local populations, starting from the very early 1900's. All those who identified as anything other than Serbs, particularly the Macedono-Bulgarians, were subjected to beatings, rape, imprisonment, forced name changes, destruction of property, their local dialects were forbidden, some were exiled, others were murdered.. Orthodox Churches were destroyed, others were converted into "Serbian Orthodox Churches", and this is ironic, because it appears that even the Muslim Ottoman Turks had more respect for the local populations compared to the Orthodox Christian Slavic "brothers".
This is a part of history that the Serbian government would prefer to forget. You're focusing too much on recent developments with the Albanian minority, however, this had been the agenda of your government before the Albanians became a "problem" for Serbia.
And with regards to everything that happened in Macedonia, that was solely a Serbian initiative. The Serbs were not pushed or pressured by anything other than their own government, which in turn was driven by greed and the desire to expand it's country's territories.
In a way, what Serbia had done in the past, is very similar to what the US is doing today.. except, back then the approach was much more brutal.
I've said this before, it would be unfair to hold present day populations accountable for the misdeeds of their forefathers. However, when one comes up and denies these events, when they've been so vividly recorded, it's like spitting on the memory of those who have had to endure this.
I think that before one hurries to pass judgment upon another, one should look upon himself first.
I can understand that Serbia's current situation is frustrating. Personally I think that is very unfortunate that a super power can do as it pleases.
You've lost Kosovo, but I have no sympathy for you there. The exact same thing happened to Bulgaria, the only difference is that we lost land that at the time was actually populated by Bulgarians at its majority. And when the "Great Powers" stepped in and dismembered my country, Serbia decided it would be the best time for it to attack the disunited and unprepared Bulgarian populations (ie. Serbo-Bulgarian War of 1885) who's only goal at the time was to liberate themselves from the Ottomans. On the other hand, when the US was bombing your country, Bulgaria remained neutral even though it had plenty of reason to enter (ie. The Western Outlands).
But this sort of thing happens all the time it seems. Serbia's actions in the late 1800's and early 1900's were undertaken only because Austro-Hungary had taken the lands of Republica Srpska and disunited Bulgaria was a much easier target than Austro-Hungary.
Serbia's government did what it thought was best for its own people, and in turn my people suffered.
We all make choices and are then forced to live with the consequences of those choices, but the reality of it all is that a Serb would be more justified to point a finger at his own government before looking to place the blame on someone else.
Realistically, Serbia lost a piece of land that was populated by more than 90% non-Serbs. The land itself was never truly Serbian as your government presents it. Kosovo has actually been a part of Bulgaria for a longer period of time than it was a part of Serbia.
If you look at things objectively you have not lost something that is "rightfully yours", you have not lost land that is populated by your people.
At the same time, independent Kosovo opens the doors for Serbia's integration into the European Union.
You think you've suffered, but you have no idea what that actually means..
|
|
|
Post by uz on Aug 12, 2011 14:24:33 GMT -5
Ok, so you feel no sympathy because of Bulgar-Mac situation. Apples and Oranges, my friend.
I'm talking about one thing, and rebudle with me with another topic entirely. You and Priso would get along.
First off lets make clear that kosovo was always full of Serbs. Over 90% to be exact, it wasn't until the late 80's and early 90's that the Albanians started pouring in. So for you to be "ok" with this land-grab, your being hypocritical to your own cause which make me completly un-sympathetic to your cause.
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Aug 12, 2011 15:29:13 GMT -5
I'd still like to know how 65AD is more ancient than the people who inhabited the Eastern Roman Empire.
|
|
|
Post by uz on Aug 12, 2011 15:31:54 GMT -5
Well 65 AD surely ain't more ancient than Jesus himself, whats your point.
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Aug 12, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to make a point. I was trying to have you explain what you meant when you made that statement.
|
|
|
Post by uz on Aug 12, 2011 15:42:04 GMT -5
Go back to the other thread, to get clear.
|
|
|
Post by kolonia on Aug 12, 2011 19:12:00 GMT -5
First off lets make clear that kosovo was always full of Serbs. Over 90% to be exact, it wasn't until the late 80's and early 90's that the Albanians started pouring in. So for you to be "ok" with this land-grab, your being hypocritical to your own cause which make me completly un-sympathetic to your cause. haaahahaahaaaaaaaahaha
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 13, 2011 3:15:42 GMT -5
I know Ivo your garbage BuLgari have no sympathy for Serbs, its o.k, your cousins and neighbour Turkey is getting powerful, considering they are around 1 million population in your country and Bulgari with a low birth rate, it may ironically end up as a Turkish country after all.
PS Don't ever compare Kosovo to Vardar, Vadar was never Bulgarian to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Aug 13, 2011 5:30:50 GMT -5
Go back to the other thread, to get clear. You made those comments in this thread, including this one: How is the Serb culture more ancient than the culture of the Eastern Roman Empire? As for your statement on the Byzantines--that they have founded nothing--it is of course rubbish.
|
|
|
Post by odel on Aug 13, 2011 7:28:13 GMT -5
The Serb name does not originate from the Iranic planes. I have posted refrencing of the Srbi being settled along the coast of Japan (Srbija do Tokija), later along the lands of China; We are described in their ancient texts of being white, very tall and big in stature and having cat-eyes (cat-eyes is referred to those of non-asiatic eyes), after then, the Iranic planes, and so on to what was later known as "Slavic", now the question which trumps many historians is whether Serbs took up Slavic traditions or whether Slavic traditions came from Serbs... I will re-post the link when I have the time to search for it again. LOL. Nazistic intervention? Lol. If you call trying to ethnically cleanse a region of its native in majority population not being willing to dance to US/EU trumpets, then yes Milosevic and his followers were not dancing to their trumpets.
|
|
|
Post by uz on Aug 13, 2011 7:55:23 GMT -5
To Roma-kid; The Serb culture evolved, it is nowhere near the same as it once was. This can be said for the Greeks as well. The Byzantines didn't found anything, what they brought was new us but NOT their creation/foundation. Look into this matter if you're really curious.
To Odel; Stop crying the blues about how we were trying to "ethnically-cleanse" you. You're like the kid in the playgroud that throws the first punch, and when the other kid punches back, you go crying off screaming "Look, look". You're river of tears is not helping your cause.
FACT; No evidence of ethnic cleansing. FACT; NATO/EU/US intervention was illegal, the UN security councle themselves declared that the war was not justified, the methods used for the war were also illegal (civilian-targets. depleted uranium, etc...) ---If you do not aknowledge this, then I truly hope for when the day comes that Albanians wakeup, your type will be kicked to the curb like trash, similiar to the trash you speak. The same I will say about these like amongst my people.
Your useless to any cause, and only want to piggy-bak on what others have been glorified for. Shameful, yet it may not be too late.
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Aug 13, 2011 8:09:51 GMT -5
You're such an idiot. You do your best to sound intelligent; on a good day, you're mediocre.
|
|
|
Post by odel on Aug 13, 2011 9:24:49 GMT -5
To Roma-kid; The Serb culture evolved, it is nowhere near the same as it once was. This can be said for the Greeks as well. The Byzantines didn't found anything, what they brought was new us but NOT their creation/foundation. Look into this matter if you're really curious. History isn't your strong point; keep yourself to Bosnian pyramids, UFO's and aliens, NWO, conspiracy theories and such. The Kosova war was on the Serb part an attempt to change the ethnic and cultural face of Kosova, mainly by getting rid of the largest ethnicity and by destroying their cultural heritage; in the end to make the Serb element in Kosova appear as the by far greatest. It's more like we're the 6 year old kid in the playground that even though he's surrounded by a group of bullies 4 years older that manages to hold his ground, realizing that the bullies start attacking the other 6 year olds, when the bullies are stopped by the adults they start crying "it's their fault, illegal intervention, it's a conspiracy! It's not fair!". There is evidence of ethnic cleansing, you claiming that there is no or not accepting any of the evidence doesn't make it so. Hahaha! You have an incredible talent of writing very meaningless things. Pseudo-intellectual is a very fitting word.
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Aug 13, 2011 9:28:40 GMT -5
It is, but Canaris used it not long ago to describe Pyrros and I don't want to use Canaris' insults. Not that they're of inferior quality.
|
|
ivo
Amicus
Posts: 2,712
|
Post by ivo on Aug 14, 2011 8:41:59 GMT -5
My cause? What I want is to have the truth out in the open, the whole truth.. and not some political re-interpretations of it.
Your sympathy is not needed, don't worry.
|
|
|
Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 14, 2011 9:21:49 GMT -5
Spot on. Serbia has been trying to define it's role in Balkan politics for the last 150 years or so. It was liberated with Russian help from the Ottoman Empire but took with it the Ottoman craving for expansion and desire to assimilate other people ( particularly Slavic speaking peoples) into Serbdom which in turn is used to justify any aggressive policies Serbs might take towards their neighbors.
Serbia has often espoused a double standard when it comes to dealing with large minorities in their country ( i.e. Albanians in Kosovo) and large Serb minorities in other countries like Croatia and BiH. They feel they have the right to dictate affairs in Kosovo because of 'history' yet they support breakaway territories in other countries where Serbs make a significant minority.
Serbs are not the only nation guilty of this mind you. We Croats also had the double standard problem with Croatia conquering 'Krajina' and the establishment of the Croat Republic of Herceg Bosna. Herceg Bosna , however , does not exist today while the Serb Republic in Bosnia still does.
It's to minimize guilt and absolve their own criminals of sins. The Serbs were 'forced' into violence because of manipulaters from other more powerful countries. The argument is that Serbs would have never gone to war if it wasn't for the world conspiracy against them. Of course nobody really believes this , not even many Serbs themselves, but a handful of them and anti-West sympathizers typically do.
Serbs have this self image of themselves that they are so important as to make a world conspiracy against them a reality.
Of course. By the time Greater Serbian manifestos were written the U.S. was still in antibellum period mainly concerned with politics on its own western frontier rather than Europe.
|
|
|
Post by ulf on Aug 14, 2011 13:24:36 GMT -5
Just stop reading and quoting Deretic and his companion of lunatics Deretic took it to the extreme, i agree, BUT he has brought up MANY good points which were ignored until recently. Deretic has formed a complete system which tries to answer questions. You cannot separate one of his sentences from his whole system. But OTOH, one counter-example is enough to dis-prove his theory. My wife recently bought a fantastic new book on the history of serbs. I will give more info when i'll meet her. Deretic is dreamer and many people with similar thoughts as dreamers are well. No one sane believes the crap such idiots write.
|
|
|
Post by ulf on Aug 14, 2011 13:58:10 GMT -5
Spot on. Serbia has been trying to define it's role in Balkan politics for the last 150 years or so. It was liberated with Russian help from the Ottoman Empire but took with it the Ottoman craving for expansion and desire to assimilate other people ( particularly Slavic speaking peoples) into Serbdom which in turn is used to justify any aggressive policies Serbs might take towards their neighbors. Serbia has often espoused a double standard when it comes to dealing with large minorities in their country ( i.e. Albanians in Kosovo) and large Serb minorities in other countries like Croatia and BiH. They feel they have the right to dictate affairs in Kosovo because of 'history' yet they support breakaway territories in other countries where Serbs make a significant minority. Serbs are not the only nation guilty of this mind you. We Croats also had the double standard problem with Croatia conquering 'Krajina' and the establishment of the Croat Republic of Herceg Bosna. Herceg Bosna , however , does not exist today while the Serb Republic in Bosnia still does. It's to minimize guilt and absolve their own criminals of sins. The Serbs were 'forced' into violence because of manipulaters from other more powerful countries. The argument is that Serbs would have never gone to war if it wasn't for the world conspiracy against them. Of course nobody really believes this , not even many Serbs themselves, but a handful of them and anti-West sympathizers typically do. Serbs have this self image of themselves that they are so important as to make a world conspiracy against them a reality. Of course. By the time Greater Serbian manifestos were written the U.S. was still in antibellum period mainly concerned with politics on its own western frontier rather than Europe. I do get your Croatian standpoint in a way to support Kosovo Albanians. Your whole county was made upon UN intervention, pretty much like Kosovo. Its the fact that you've been so naively brainwashed that when your rebel officers were convicted for genocide(talking about Hague) whole nation cried. But that's another topic. Albanian on Kosovo or Albanian in Belgrade or any other Serbian city and Serb in Serbia have more then equal right - believe me. In fact in last 5-10 years the position of minorities has been so much improved that you can easily say they got more rights then the Serbs. Talking about politics in last 100 years I got absolutely no doubt in righteousness of our Serb politicians(I say Serb because some of them are not Serbian born, especially in last 20 years or so), except participating in violent SFR Yugoslavia break-up, but then again ours weren't only one to be guilt for, neither they started it. All the battles we had won in last 100 years or so we won them fair and square without any help, and that's where we and our neighbors differ. We never aligned with genocidal maniacs nor have acted like one
|
|