Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 2, 2011 21:54:35 GMT -5
OK guys, some 18th century evidence of the Macedonian nation - neither Serb, nor Bulgar... "The author present the data about members of Serbian regiments in New Serbia, that is, Slavonic Serbia, who declared themselves as Macedonians. In Sevic’s regiment 74 persons declared that they came from the “Macedonian nation”. According to the Russian author Kabuzanov, in 1754 in New Serbia there were 2,225 persons, out of which 124 Macedonians. In 1759 the Macedonian hussar regiment was formed. The commander of the regiment was Aleksij Kostjurin, and the supreme commander of all regiments was Jovan Horvat. According to the data from 1765–1769 out of the total of 271 merchants who were registered in the “Nezin Greek Fraternity”, 54 declared that they were from the “Macedonian province”, mostly from Kostur, Thessalonica, Vodena, Skoplje and Strumica. The Macedonian regiment was terminated in 1773. The dislocated population adapted to the new environment and by the time passing they became ethnically assimilated." Taken form “Preseljenitsi iz Makedonije u Rusko Tsarstvo sredinom 18. veka” by Milka Zdraveva, page 145. Macedonians noted in immigration records in Ukraina in 1755!
Immigration record, Ukraina, 1755
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 2, 2011 22:26:48 GMT -5
And some 17th century evidence; Macedonians ask for protection of the Holy Roman Emperor, Leopold I, 1690!From the book 'Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation' By John Shea, 1997, page 60. From the book 'Austria's Wars of Emergence: 1683-1797' By Michael Hochedlinger, 2003, page 162. From the book 'The Habsburg Monarchy, 1618-1815' By Charles W. Ingrao, 1994, page 81.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 3, 2011 17:27:58 GMT -5
Macedonia was a kingdom. Now it is an independent republic, aswell as a geographic region in Greece and Bulgaria.
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Post by uz on Oct 3, 2011 17:29:32 GMT -5
^ If Mac's today want to claim Ancient Macedon ancestry, then the rest of the Balkans has the same right.
I really don't get how any of us has any right to claim anything so old/ancient. Where's the line?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 3, 2011 17:34:09 GMT -5
^ If Mac's today want to claim Ancient Macedon ancestry, then the rest of the Balkans has the same right. I really don't get how any of us has any right to claim anything so old/ancient. Where's the line? Actually not all of the balkans, but a great part of it. Macedonia at it's greatest expanseIf you identify as Macedonians, then please declare yourselves as such where ever you live. Macedonia ruled the known world at one point. Maybe we can do it again ;D
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Post by uz on Oct 3, 2011 18:38:26 GMT -5
You're implying that for over 2000 years no one moved around. Quite the opposite my friend. It's most likely the original Ancient Macedon genes are completely out of the Balkan zone by now.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 3, 2011 18:46:38 GMT -5
You're implying that for over 2000 years no one moved around. Quite the opposite my friend. It's most likely the original Ancient Macedon genes are completely out of the Balkan zone by now. Not according to recent genetic research. The genes are found mostly in today's Macedonian population, aswell as in Bulgaria and Greece (Northern Greece in particular).
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Post by uz on Oct 3, 2011 19:07:52 GMT -5
I find that^ really hard to beleive, I don't doubt that there is probably some "source" out there that says that.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 3, 2011 19:18:10 GMT -5
I find that^ really hard to beleive, I don't doubt that there is probably some "source" out there that says that. I find it hard to believe that you would think that Slavs entered an empty balkan lanscape in the 5th/6th century. Serbs/Croats/Bosnians deny their Illyrian roots and leave it to the Shiptars to claim. The same genetic research confirms the Illyrian influence in today's Serb-Croat speaking people's.
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Post by uz on Oct 3, 2011 19:20:56 GMT -5
I find that^ really hard to beleive, I don't doubt that there is probably some "source" out there that says that. I find it hard to believe that you would think that Slavs entered an empty balkan lanscape in the 5th/6th century. Serbs/Croats/Bosnians deny their Illyrian roots and leave it to the Shiptars to claim. The same genetic research confirms the Illyrian influence in today's Serb-Croat speaking people's. Serbs (Cro's & Boslims) do not deny the potential connection to Illyrians. The difference is we have more Slavic traits that we STILL hold in our cultures. Albanians have nothing Illyrian about them. Just a mash of slavic and hellenic influences and later Roman (some would say Roman would be first). Macedonians today, are more slavic than anything.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Oct 3, 2011 19:24:45 GMT -5
Chento, l want you to focus on the bold section, this highlights the slavic period, forget about ancient macedonia, it doesn't apply to you, as your well aware, macedonian people were long gone before the slavs migrated to the Balkans.
Dr. Gustav Weigand is of the opinion that in ancient times Macedonia was understood as signifying a somewhat smaller region than we associate today with the term: "Originally it was the only district on the lower reaches of the Haliakmon [Bistrica] and the Aksios [Vardar] under the rule of local kings who came from Orestis, i.e., the land around the kastoria Lake." According to Jirechek, "medieval Macedonia consisted of two regions with somewhat differing histories: one, which embraced the Byzantine coast in the neighborhood of Salonica and Serrai, and another, without access to the sea, which, from the seventh century on, was occupied by Slavs and which, from the eleventh to the fourteenth centuries, was for the most part under the influence and domination of the Greeks." Mentioning Basil the Macedonian, who was born in the village near Jedren and as a boy taken prisoner by the Bulgarians, Jirechek says that the name "Macedonian" should not cause surprise, for "in the Middle Ages the whole of present-day Rumelia was often called Macedonia."
Theodor von Sosnosky pointed out that "after the fall of the Byzantine Empire, the name [of Macedonia] disappeared completely from the map, and when it was mentioned at all it always referred to the empire of Phillip and Alexander. With the collapse of Alexander's world empire it ceased to play an independant role in history. Then, however, it suddenly appeared on the lips of the whole world......Only the name, admittedly, for it signifies only the lan, not the same people." "The name 'Macedonia,' " says Horand Horsa Schacht, "disappeared with the collapse of the Byzantine Empire. Otherwise applied only as an historical designation, it reappeared in the national struggles of the Balkan people.....Under the Turks, there was no Macedonia. For this reason, the Turkish government spoke only of the Rumelian question.' " For Dr. Oestreich, too, Macedonia is no more than an "historical designation which originally covered an area further to the south, including the plain of Salonica,.....and, as a term whose meaning had not been clearly defined and could be stretched at will, was arbitrarily applied to the hinterland." Since the beginning of the nineteenth century, the extent of Macedonia has been variously defined. Von Gruber states that it lies between the Balkans and Athos, on both sides of the Vardar and the Struma, and that it covers an area of 1,720 square miles inhabited by a population of 500,000. "Geographically," he says, "it is normally divided into two sanjaks- those of Salonica and Chustendil. In accordance, however, with the recent information, we shall abandon this practice and mention the best-known places: Salonica, the chief meeting-place of commercial routes connecting European Turkey with the rest of Europe (from here Vienna and Smyrna trade in money exchange); then Seres [Serrai], Karaferija [Verija], Vodin [Edessa], Jenisa, St.Orfano, Emboli, Filibi [Philippopolis, Plovdiv] and Chustendil." Of Bulgaria, he says that it lies on the Black Sea between the Balkans and the Danube, and that it embraces an area of 1,740 square miles with a population of 1,800,000. According to him, Bulgaria was at that time divided into four sanjaks-those of Sofia, Nicopolis, Silistria and Vidin. To Serbia, von Gruber assigns the sanjaks of Kratovo, Skopje and Novi Pazar. R. Walsh, who traveled around Bulgaria in the late 1820's, states: "Modern Bulgaria stretches from the mouth of the Danube, along this river, to the point above Vidin where it is joined by the Timok. The Danube constitutes its entire northern boundery, as the Balkan chain does its southern. The whole of the area within these limits is over a hundred hours' distance long and about sixteen hours across. The Bulgarians have, however, spread far beyond these artificial limits." A.F. Heksch also considered that "Bulgaria proper" extended "from the lower Danube to the main ridges of the Balkans and the Black Sea," and that ethnically, it "still embraces the district of Sofia also." Hugo Grothe was extremely cautious in defining the geographical concept "Macedonia": considering the question what was considered as constituting Macedonia under the Turks, he says, "From the point of view of state law, only three vilayets-those of Salonica, Bitolj and Skopje [Kosovo]-may today be regarded as constituting Turkish macedonia.....It is doubtful whether so-called Old Serbia-the sanjaks of Prizren, Pristina and Srem [?]-belongs to Macedonia." Gerhard Schacher gives the following boundaries of Macedonia: "In the southwest of the Balkan Peninsula is situated a territory with an area of 65,000 square kilometers-therefore not quite twice the size of Holland-which is enclosed in the south by the Aegean Sea, in the west by the Pindus Moutains, Gramus, Mokra and Stogovo, and in the north and east by the Shar Planina and Crna Gora and the spurs of the Osogovo, Rila and Rhodope Mountains respectively." Wladimir Sis, who was definitely biased in favor of Bulgaria, defines the frontiers of Macedonia thus: "It [Macedonia] borders in the north on Old Serbia and the pre-1913 Serbian kingdom, in the northeast and east on Old Bulgaria, to which in 1878 was added its northern part-i.e., the districts of Chustendil and Dupnica-in the southeast on Thrace, in the south on the Aegean Sea, Thessaly and Epirus, and in the west on Albania." "In the Turkish empire," says Schultze, "the name 'Macedonia' disappeared. According to the political division carried out in the twentieth century, our country belongs to the vilayet of Salonica, and, within the limits of the latter, to the sanjaks of Serrai and Drama. The eastern frontier was the lower Nestos; the northern frontier included Nevrokop, and the western frontier Melnik and Dzhumaja."
Jovan Cvijich (watchout readers, a serb) traced the fontiers of Macedonia in the south across a turn in the Bistrica, in the north along the northern boundary of the sanjak of Novi Pazar, in the west along the Crni Drin, and in the east along the Mesta. According to this frontier, both countries lie between 39 56' 50" and 43 38' 25" North, and the between 54 14' 31" and 60 7' 26" East of Greenwich. The average meridian is 55 21', while the average degree of latitude is approximately 41 50'. The total area of Macedonia and Old Serbia is 74, 709 square kilometers, which is 26,000 square kilometers greater than that of Serbia and 24,000 square kilometers less than that of Bulgaria.
As a result of his reasearches, Cvijich came to the following conclusion: "On the majority of older maps [i.e., from the sixteenth century], and a few of later date in which the classical nomenclature, the name 'Macedonia' was confined to the coastal region around Salonica and the surrounding plain-that is, to Campania and the district west and northwest of it near to what is now the Meglen basin. The chief towns of this region of Macedonia proper are Edessa and Pella. At the end of the fifteenth and during the sixteenth centuries, many lands of the Balkan Peninsula, because of erroneous recollections of classical world, were, mostly by local writers, called Macedonia - even Old Serbia, Zeta (Montenegro), Albania, Bosnia and Hercegovina." The geographically ill-informed author of the folk poem about Prince kaica places the Danubian town of Smederevo in Macedonia. Two versions of Dushans legal code, those of Ravanica and Sofia-both from the seveenth century-call Dushan emperor of Macedonia. The Sofia version reads: "The pious and Christian Stefan, Emperor of Macedonia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Dalmatia, while that of ravanica says simply: "The pious, faithful and Christian Emperor of Macedonia, Stefan." In a record of 1561, written at the monastery of Zavala, in Hercegovina, it is stated that this monastery lies "in the shelter of Mount Velezh, which is in the Macedonian lands." Bozhidar h-Podgorichanin says of himself that he comes from "Diocletian lands, in Macedonia, from the town of Podgorica." Certain pilgrims to the Holy Sepulcher, Vukovoj, Gavrilo, Sava, Jovan and Sekule, state on two occasions that they are from "the Macedonian lands, from the land of Zahumlje, known as Hercegovina." In 1569, a certain Jakov says that he is from "the Macedonian lands, from the place called Sofia." In 1615, it was stated that the monastery of Moracha is situated "in the region of Hercegovina, in the western lands, in the Macedonian lands." It was on account of such statements that Vuk Stefanovich Karadzich observed that "all our people's lands are called Macedonia." Heinrich Muller's Turkish Chroncile, published at Frankfurt-on-Main in 1577, contains an interesting passage on Macedonia which reads: "However valiantly the Serbian people fought in Macedonia, the Sultan nevertheless occupied the Serbian towns of Serrai, Strumica, Philippopolis and Veles......Bajazit also collected a great army against the powerful ruler Marko of Macedonia, which land is the most fertile of all Serbia." The unknown writer who continued the work of Archbishop Danilo, in the section entitled "On the Enthronement of the Second Patriarch, the Serbian Kir Sava, "took one part, and the other Vukashin, who, in claiming the kingdom, cared nothing for the curse of Saint Sava. And Ugljesha took the Greek lands and towns. After this, having gathered together, they went into Macedonia, were killed by the Turks and thus met their end." As may be seen, the term "macedonia" signifies merely a geographical concept which has been insufficiently defined and which has no ethnographical sigificance.[/u]
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 3, 2011 21:24:57 GMT -5
No confusion here. Macedonia is clearly marked in these 16th century maps.. Title: Neuw Griechenlandt / mit andern anstossenden Landern / wie es zu unsern zeiten beschribenist Map Maker: Sebastian Munster Place / Date: Basle / 1552Ottoman Empire 1570And on this 17th century map; Accuratissima Orientalioris Districtus Maris Mediterranei Tabula Justus Danckerts Amsterdam / 1690
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Oct 5, 2011 5:01:06 GMT -5
We also see Romania written all over Thrace on these maps. Does this means that there are Romanians in Thrace? Or rather it means that Macedonia is seen as a region, the same as Romania.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Oct 5, 2011 5:04:01 GMT -5
Also on the other maps we obviouslly see not Countries but Regions like Epirus, Triballia, Dardania. Some like Triballia are not even right. So with all these maps you ve proven that Macedonia is a geographic region that no one disputes.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Oct 5, 2011 17:25:18 GMT -5
Novi's point was Macedonia was not acurately depicted;
At the end of the fifteenth and during the sixteenth centuries, many lands of the Balkan Peninsula, because of erroneous recollections of classical world, were, mostly by local writers, called Macedonia - even Old Serbia, Zeta (Montenegro), Albania, Bosnia and Hercegovina."
The maps I posted refute this serbian propaganda.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Oct 6, 2011 4:32:13 GMT -5
chento bro, at least the first map is inaccurate as hell.... don't take them seriously.
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